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 Yodhrin wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Wha?

I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.

Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.

Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?

If you are right and airbrush paints are just plain superior to nonairbrush formulations, the nonairbrush formulations should just stop selling. Among other things, Airbrush paints contain far less pigments and are cheaper to produce (just look at the prices of Airbrush thinners and mediums). So obviously, I'm not the only person in the world that buys nonairbrush paints

I challenge you to write fine, double-lined letters like this with a runny paint like Vallejo Air Black (this was a topic AllSeeingSkink made a while back) :



But... I mean... guys, use what you want. I'm not trying to convert anyone; I'm trying to explain what I use and why. Whatever you're comfortable with and gets you the best results, that you enjoy -- that's what you should use.

WOw Talys,... your challenge is nothing but an insult to all the painters using non gw colors for decades.
Seriously.

RoninXiC wrote:
WOw Talys,... your challenge is nothing but an insult to all the painters using non gw colors for decades.
Seriously.

I said, Vallejo AIR Black. Seriously, try it. I have tried it myself. All you get is smudged poo.

That isn't written using GW colors, dude. It's P3 Thamar Black, thinned with Lahmian Medium. I happen to NOT be a fan of Abbadon black. I like P3 Thamar Black best and Model Color Black better. I don't even go through 1 pot of Abbadon black in three years (and about 5 pots of Thamar black every year).

All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."
C) They are actually very high quality paints.

RoninXiC wrote:
WOw Talys,... your challenge is nothing but an insult to all the painters using non gw colors for decades.
Seriously.

I am not sure people who have been painting for DECADES are the benchmark or norm, no matter what you paint with.

Even people like Giraldez haven't painted for that long.

Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Nah.. it's easy.
You just have to put the paint in any of the paintpot styles GW has made since the late 90's and it'll be nice and thick in a few weeks.

It hurts how much truth is in that "joke" comment from personal experience.
I bought a bunch of eye-dropper bottles and switched all the GW paints to those.
I swear they pack desiccant in the cap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.

Trying hard to remember when I came to my senses and started using acrylics rather than enamel paints.
Was it decades?

 Talizvar wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Besides... Vallejo Model Air hasn't even been around for decades I don't think so, anyhow. My hobby shop certainly hasn't carried it for DECADES, as in 20+ years.

Trying hard to remember when I came to my senses and started using acrylics rather than enamel paints.
Was it decades?

Oh, I've definitely used water-based acrylics since the late 80s. But not Airbrush acrylics, and specifically, Vallejo Model AIR (as opposed to Model COLOR) which is what I was talking about. I remember back in the 80s, the people using airbrushes didn't even have acrylic paint thinner back then -- they used all sorts of other things to thin their paints for airbrush.

I dunno why a bunch of people are getting confused by the product lines.

Vallejo has:

- Model COLOR and Model AIR. Most of the colors don't match at all; some of the colors don't match well, even on some of the paints with the same name. The part numbers also don't correleate.

- Game COLOR and Game AIR. Most of the colors DO match. They also have matching numbers, such that a 72.721 is Magic Blue Game Air, and 72.021 is Magic Blue Game Color.

Model Air and Game Air have Black caps. Game Color has Grey caps. Model color has white caps.

There are also Panzer Aces, but let's not go there

@Talys: i've been using Vallejo Air Metals for about 5 years...
i think they are only a year or two older than that...
the full line of Model Air colors, as they stand now, are about two years old, as far as i remember, since i recall Angel being excited about his set on Facebook in 2013-ish...

@Wonderwolf: i may not be the norm, but i have been painting for 30 years, and many people i know have been painted just as long, if not longer...
it's not like miniature painting is a new hobby...
it's been around for a long time...
newer painters can progress a lot faster these days, though, as there are a ton of classes and tutorials now...

@Talizvar: i used Testors enamel on model cars and aircraft from about 1980-1985, then switched to minis and Ral Partha acrylics from '85-'90...
i used Citadel acrylics from 1990-2005, and switched to P3 in '05...
that's 30 years of using acrylic...
man, time flies!!!

cheers
jah

Well, the Model Color line dates to sometime in the '80's to maybe the early '90's according to the FAQ on Vallejo's website:

2.1. Who invented Model Color?

Spanish model-painters, having worked with solvent based paints, began to use some of our fine-arts acrylics in the 1980ties; they eventually suggested changes and modifications in our formulas, and we designed a product in accordance with their needs. After some years of development, this was to become Model Color. The product has a complicated chemical composition, and formulas are revised constantly in accord with new developments in technology, availability of new resins and raw materials, changes in pigments, and updated regulations and environmental concerns.

And as to why some of the bottles of Model Color say 'Do Not Spray':

2.11. I just purchased some bottles of Model Color, and on two of them the label says: Do not spray. The other bottles do not have this advice. Is this an omission? Should this be on all the Model Color bottles?

No, this phrase or a pictogram of an airbrush crossed out, is printed only on some labels in compliance with California Proposition 65, which requires this instruction for all colors which may contain a trace of Cadmium. A total of 38 of the 180 colors of the Model Color line carry this advice ; for more information please see 15. Health and Safety, also see our web page www.acrylicosvallejo.com under Health and Safety and Pigment content per color.

Vallejo has:

- Model COLOR and Model AIR. Most of the colors don't match at all; some of the colors don't match well, even on some of the paints with the same name. The part numbers also don't correleate.

- Game COLOR and Game AIR. Most of the colors DO match. They also have matching numbers, such that a 72.721 is Magic Blue Game Air, and 72.021 is Magic Blue Game Color.

Model Air and Game Air have Black caps. Game Color has Grey caps. Model color has white caps.

There are also Panzer Aces, but let's not go there

Model Colour has been around for a good while, and since Vallejo probably want to keep that line consistent they haven't changed the pigments mixes much. When they created model air they couldn't use the same pigments so therefore there might be slight differences. And since the paints also use different mediums, that probably also affects the final tone. They maybe should have changed the names though.

It will be interesting to see how exact the GW paints are.

@jorny - The simple colors could be for the reasons you describe. To pick a couple of examples, it's not like they aren't going to make something yellow or red --

- "Red" has an RLM code of 33 in model color, and RLM 23 in model air. Which would be fine if there were ALSO a 23 or 33 in the other one.
- "Yellow" in model color uses Federated Standard color codes, with FS313655. in model color it's FS33655. And again, no matching equivalents.

But it's not even limited to the simple colors. For example:

- "Medium Sea Grey" in Model color is FS36270 Medium Sea Grey in Model Air is FS36231.

Like..... huh? The colors are really close. But they are not close enough that if you paint one over the other, you won't notice that it looks strangely different, like a mistake. As you said, at least they could have called one, "Medium Stone Grey" or something, and then it wouldn't be confusing to the poor fool who thinks they are doing something wrong when they try to cover one with the other, the first time around (that would be me!).

Make no mistake. If GW does the same thing with its airbrush colors, I will be just as peeved

Vallejo does have a list of Equivalencies, including Model Color to Model Air.

From the image it looks like the thinner is in a standard GW pot. That does not look like good value

dragqueeninspace wrote:From the image it looks like the thinner is in a standard GW pot. That does not look like good value

Yep, that would be lousy value. keep in mind Vallejo also has a small size that is terrible value, but they have larger sizes that pretty much everyone buys instead.

Ghaz wrote:Vallejo does have a list of Equivalencies, including Model Color to Model Air.

Yes, but that's really my point. They're close, as in if you paint two models with the two pains, they'll easily pass for the same color. But they're not close, as in, if you use the two colors on the same panel (for example to touch up after a wash), they look messed up. Plus, they have a different sheen, which makes it look even worse.

As others have said, you are better off just using the airbrush paint on a hairy brush.

incidentally, I think, GW paint with Vallejo thinner has a really nice, matte, but not ultramatte finish.

 Talys wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Wha?

I use airbrush paints with a brush all the time, work fine.

Eh, aye, I specifically use airbrush paint for brush painting because it works better than thinned normal paint with brushes, particularly for glazing since the much finer pigment doesn't go "speckly" if you dilute them further. No idea what you're on about Talys.

Then... why does Vallejo sell Model Color and Game Color, and why are they better sellers than Model Air and Game Air?

To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting

Though I do wonder if a lot of your dislike of hairy brush painting the air range comes from using a wet palette? I never try to use the air paints on a wet palette, always just do them on a regular dry palette, I could imagine the much thinner paints are more prone to separating from the binder on a wet palette.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting

Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To the former, in order to have variety, to the latter, because they are labelled "air" so most people don't even consider them for hairy brush painting

Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.

I know plenty of people do.... if you rewind to the previous page you'll note that I said I myself frequently hairy brush paint with the air range.... however I think most people would be put off by them largely because they are marketed as an airbrush range. I have spoken to several people at my local hobby store who simply assumed you couldn't hairy brush paint with them without even trying.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."
C) They are actually very high quality paints.

I have to agree on all points. I have not tried every paint range in the world, and I am _really_ not the world's best painter by any degree. However, I have tried some other ranges and I keep coming back to GW.

They are as expensive as hell, but I am getting the results I want from them and have become very comfortable with them.

But as someone else said earlier, work with what you are comfortable with...

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.
B) The same paints are used on the boxart, so you aren't "cheated."

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure GW mixes a lot of the paints up that they use on studio models. Obviously the stuff they use in painting tutorials is (or should be) what comes out of the pot, but in the past I know GW have often used mixed paints for the actual studio armies that get used in photographs.

Not to mention the fact they often photoshop images (or use different lighting maybe?), subtly changing the colours.

C) They are actually very high quality paints.

Depends what you call "high quality" I suppose. Compared to cheapo art store acrylics designed for painting on canvas? Maybe. But they are average quality compared to all the other acrylics designed for miniatures and scale models (vallejo, P3, reaper, army painter, tamiya, gunze and humbrol are all the ones I've personally tried, there's several others I haven't tried).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Though I do wonder if a lot of your dislike of hairy brush painting the air range comes from using a wet palette? I never try to use the air paints on a wet palette, always just do them on a regular dry palette, I could imagine the much thinner paints are more prone to separating from the binder on a wet palette.

Yes, absolutely you are right. I never use a wet palette with airbrush paints, because they essentially ruin the wet palette (they just spread 4" in every direction and all mix together). I just think a wet palette is one of the most wonderful painting tools, as it keeps paint at a similar consistency for a very long time. In comparison, putting paint on a dry palette, whether airbrush or otherwise, causes the consistency to change as it dries out.

Now, that's not to say I don't use a dry palette. I actually paint with a wet palette, flat dry palette, and cupped palettes (for glazes, custom washes, and mixed colors). But for 80% of my non-drybrush painting, I enjoy a wet palette.

-Loki- wrote:Plenty of people brush on their model air and now game air paints. They're just pre-thinned with their thinning medium, which is also the same thing they use in their surface primer that makes it amazing to brush on.

This is not really accurate. The primers are polyurethane based (which is dangerous & toxic to inhale), which is what causes the self-levelling. Like, I just mean: Vallejo black surface primer is not black model air + Vallejo thinner!

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
All I'm saying is that the good thing about GW paints is that:
A) Warhammer TV has them.

This is a huge advantage for people learning to paint.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure GW mixes a lot of the paints up that they use on studio models. Obviously the stuff they use in painting tutorials is (or should be) what comes out of the pot, but in the past I know GW have often used mixed paints for the actual studio armies that get used in photographs.

Not to mention the fact they often photoshop images (or use different lighting maybe?), subtly changing the colours.

On the tutorials, you can actually see Duncan crack open the pot and put it on the model, so unless the pot has some custom color... Before the current paint line, they mixed paints all the time. Then, there's an overlap period of about a year, because not all the stuff they produce was done before the new paints were out. But, MOST things created in the era of the current GW paints, that is used for box and codex art seem to be out of the pot, no mixing.

There are exceptions, almost all character models (and a large number finecast), like the Blood Angels Codex Sanguinor and Astorath (which are different from the blister art).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

C) They are actually very high quality paints.

Depends what you call "high quality" I suppose. Compared to cheapo art store acrylics designed for painting on canvas? Maybe. But they are average quality compared to all the other acrylics designed for miniatures and scale models (vallejo, P3, reaper, army painter, tamiya, gunze and humbrol are all the ones I've personally tried, there's several others I haven't tried).

I would separate out all the alcohol based ones at the end, because they're just really different (though not a reflection on quality). I would agree that Vallejo, P3, reaper, AP are all of similar quality as GW, but they don't all work the same way. If you get used to one paint, and are happy with it... really, that's the most important, IMO.

That being said: every paint range has annoying colors, that are sometimes not evident in other paint ranges. I'll give you a real example. P3 Thamar black is a really beautiful paint. Goes on smooth, covers really well. I think it's superior to Abbadon Black in every way. But P3 Battlefield Brown? I think it's a poor sibling to GW Rhinox Hide -- which goes on smooth, and covers really well.

Unfortunately, a lot of this is also just preference, so there's no way of knowing what you'll like without actually using the various paints. No magic bullet.

MongooseMatt wrote:I have to agree on all points. I have not tried every paint range in the world, and I am _really_ not the world's best painter by any degree. However, I have tried some other ranges and I keep coming back to GW.

Yeah, I have an awful lot of paints, and use mostly GW, with notable exceptions for a few core colors.

Also, GW Technical Paints are really awesome (and unavailable from any other vendor), as are drybrush compounds, especially Necron Compound, and Lahmian Medium.

@Talys: i've never had any kind of coverage problem with P3 Battlefield Brown...
it is a lovely, smooth color to work with...
it gets almost as much use as my Thamar Black, and is the base for my golds, leathers, and bone...
it is one of my essential "go-to" colors...

anyway, it IS interesting to see GW branching out with Technical paints, and now airbrush paints...
i applaud them for expanding the range, and trying different things...

cheers
jah

No dropper for GW rage. No Thanks. I'll stick with Vallejo Game Air.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Talys: i've never had any kind of coverage problem with P3 Battlefield Brown...
it is a lovely, smooth color to work with...
it gets almost as much use as my Thamar Black, and is the base for my golds, leathers, and bone...
it is one of my essential "go-to" colors...

anyway, it IS interesting to see GW branching out with Technical paints, and now airbrush paints...
i applaud them for expanding the range, and trying different things...

cheers
jah

Maybe it's my bottle (I've only ever bought one). I'll buy another to test it out -- thanks!

@Talys: Thamar Black, Greatcoat Grey, Sanguine Base, and Battlefield Brown are the four colors i replace most often, because they get used on nearly every model, and i've never had a bad batch, unlike some of the metals:(...

i am slowly getting more tempted to try out some of the Technical paints, especially the Martian Ironearth...
that red-brown crackle is sexy...

not feeling tempted by these airbrush paints, but FW has my attention with theirs...
it will be interesting to see if they are a return to the quality and consistency of my original Citadel paints, which are still fresh almost 25 years later!!!

cheers
jah

 Desubot wrote:
No dropper for an airbrush? nope nope nope nope nope.

I bet they are going to try to hawk a "new" siphon flamethrower that attaches to those pots. using Fine canned air. at 40 bucks a can.

Cynicism aside. im interested in the metallic as most AB metallic i know are FANTASTIC.

All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.

@jah - yeah, those, or the GW equivalents, are some of my most-used paints too Like you, I put a dark brown under all gold/bronze metallics, but my Battlefield Brown just goes on, well, more like an airbrush paint (transparent, too runny). Will grab another, and hope for better. One problem is that the couple of stores that stock P3 paint don't move a lot of it, so I have always suspected that it gets quite old.

Blood for the Blood God is an amazing technical paint (that just makes painting blood splatters super easy), and typhus corrosion (possibly with drybrush after) is a quick alternative to weathering powders if you don't want to have to seal -- especially since you don't use airbrush, I think. The demo videos are great to explain the application, too.

I really don't like pots for airbrush paint.

 Kepora wrote:
All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.

So to be clear, I'm 100% pro dropper when it comes to airbrush. But....

When I airbrush terrain or a large vehicle, I do *exactly* what GW suggests: after mixing non airbrush paint with thinner in a mixing bottle, I pour it into the airbrush cup, and when I'm done, if there's any left over, I pour it back. In this instance, the large neck of a mixing bottle is WAY easier than into a Vallejo dropper.

The problem is, 90% of the time, I want, like, 3 drops of paint. And then, I just say screw it if there is any left over; and just flush it.

 Talys wrote:

 Kepora wrote:
All you need is a cheap little dropper to extract the paint from the jar. Or just carefully pour it into the brush's reservoir.

So to be clear, I'm 100% pro dropper when it comes to airbrush. But....

When I airbrush terrain or a large vehicle, I do *exactly* what GW suggests: after mixing non airbrush paint with thinner in a mixing bottle, I pour it into the airbrush cup, and when I'm done, if there's any left over, I pour it back. In this instance, the large neck of a mixing bottle is WAY easier than into a Vallejo dropper.

The problem is, 90% of the time, I want, like, 3 drops of paint. And then, I just say screw it if there is any left over; and just flush it.

Amen to that; it's exactly what I do! Definitely easier then trying to suck paint back into droppers, and far more effective!