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OgreChubbs wrote:
Shooting a hospital is no better then a terrorist act. I rarely agree with the Russians but this time I agree with him. This is the reason the states are hated so much around the world.

Read some of these messages" shoot people who are held captive at a hospital who cares. If they help some different troops shoot them hell kill them all".

It seems like U.S.A. is quickly becoming a terrorist state. They started what 5 wars that didn't concern them? They are attacking places for no other reason then self interest. Now they are bombing doctors with out borders for helping enemy troops.......

I say it is time we really consider dumping U.S.A from the U.N. before they get us in a world war or worse. Turn on the news it is starting. War with north korea, war with russia, war with... what all middle east minus iseral. Hell they made isis.

Cant wait to see what comes home to roost due to all this crap.

1: nobody is saying shooting a hospital is ever a good thing
2: if the insurgents were utilizing the hospital for military purposes and the hospital staff allowed it to happen then they were knowingly helping the insurgency and if not reported they do in fact become a military target however 99 out of 100 times they would just send in ground forces to avoid undo casualties because that is how the US military operates (Avoid collateral dmg whenever possible).
3: The U.N. literally CANT kick the US out, it also doesn't help that the UN is based in.....wait for it....New York.

So anyway, please keep your bias in check or at the least don't appear to be 100% anti american, remember you guys in Canada are America's favorite hat.

In war, despite best efforts, sometimes you screw up. You screw up because someone put the wrong co-ordinates in, you screw up because intel wasn't updated or was lost and so the guys pushing the button had no idea there was a hospital in the area, and sometimes no matter how advanced the tech missiles go awry and hit the wrong thing.

So whenever you commit to any kind of war it needs to be understood that your fighting effort will end up directly killing innocents. Which often leads to people concluding that we shouldn't ever be involved in any of these operations. But that answer is too simplistic, because the reality is that if you leave the Taliban alone they'll exact a far greater toll of innocent lives.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its only a War Crime if the targeting of the Hospital was deliberate.

Or reckless, or negligent. I'm not saying this event was any of those things, just clarifying that it doesn't have to be actual murder to be a war crime.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Shooting a hospital is no better then a terrorist act. I rarely agree with the Russians but this time I agree with him. This is the reason the states are hated so much around the world.

Read some of these messages" shoot people who are held captive at a hospital who cares. If they help some different troops shoot them hell kill them all".

It seems like U.S.A. is quickly becoming a terrorist state. They started what 5 wars that didn't concern them? They are attacking places for no other reason then self interest. Now they are bombing doctors with out borders for helping enemy troops.......

I say it is time we really consider dumping U.S.A from the U.N. before they get us in a world war or worse. Turn on the news it is starting. War with north korea, war with russia, war with... what all middle east minus iseral. Hell they made isis.

Cant wait to see what comes home to roost due to all this crap.

1: nobody is saying shooting a hospital is ever a good thing
2: if the insurgents were utilizing the hospital for military purposes and the hospital staff allowed it to happen then they were knowingly helping the insurgency and if not reported they do in fact become a military target however 99 out of 100 times they would just send in ground forces to avoid undo casualties because that is how the US military operates (Avoid collateral dmg whenever possible).
3: The U.N. literally CANT kick the US out, it also doesn't help that the UN is based in.....wait for it....New York.

So anyway, please keep your bias in check or at the least don't appear to be 100% anti american, remember you guys in Canada are America's favorite hat.

I am not anti american I like alot of them... just hate a large %. I just think it is getting to the time for them to get judged more. They kinda do what ever they want because the rest of us don't want to concern ourselves. So placing your said beliefs on other country always causes problems. But BUT this is a big but we have more in common with usa/britian then any of us would care to admit and we have stuck together since what ww1 if not longer. So it comes down to this

I am aloud to say my brother is a idiot but not you. The people who comes from the states insult Canada...alot . People from Canada insult the states...alot, But when a war breaks out against one of us we both kinda tag along.

 whembly wrote:
Wasn't this a big 'ol stink when Hamas was shooting rockets at Israel?

If I recall a hospital was not only being used as a command post, it was also being used to store rockets.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Peter Wiggin wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The way I see it, if your target is close enough to a hospital where even a slight deviation could cause that hospital to get hit, you should probably reconsider bombing that target.

You do know this is why terrorists set up shop near/in hospitals and schools, yah?

Yes, I am well aware of that, Captain Obvious. Which is why our $600 billion should be finding better solutions than "bomb them and hope we don't miss".

So other than some kind of vauge outcry of emotion, what are you suggesting? I mean seriously.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Shooting a hospital is no better then a terrorist act. I rarely agree with the Russians but this time I agree with him. This is the reason the states are hated so much around the world.

Read some of these messages" shoot people who are held captive at a hospital who cares. If they help some different troops shoot them hell kill them all".

It seems like U.S.A. is quickly becoming a terrorist state. They started what 5 wars that didn't concern them? They are attacking places for no other reason then self interest. Now they are bombing doctors with out borders for helping enemy troops.......

I say it is time we really consider dumping U.S.A from the U.N. before they get us in a world war or worse. Turn on the news it is starting. War with north korea, war with russia, war with... what all middle east minus iseral. Hell they made isis.

Cant wait to see what comes home to roost due to all this crap.

Oh, go ride a mounty. Maybe we should remove Canada from the UN, unless it's syrup day. Seriously. I don't support this, hell, I even mocked our own military with the Team America video. But aren't you taking it a bit far? Should I add in the dicks, pussies and donkey-caves speech?

Actually, I will agree with you on one thing. The U.S. Does have a terrorist cell. Maybe you've heard of them. They go by the name Westboro Baptists.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It certianly won't do any favors for US popularity in the region though, and is certainly going to be used by ISIS in it's recruitment videos.

As if our popularity could get any lower.

At this point I think we should stop worrying about our image, it can't get any worse, so we should focus on objectives.

You draw the missions: kill an enemy flier, and: kill an enemy psyker. This is going to be a problem.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Shooting a hospital is no better then a terrorist act. I rarely agree with the Russians but this time I agree with him. This is the reason the states are hated so much around the world.

Read some of these messages" shoot people who are held captive at a hospital who cares. If they help some different troops shoot them hell kill them all".

It seems like U.S.A. is quickly becoming a terrorist state. They started what 5 wars that didn't concern them? They are attacking places for no other reason then self interest. Now they are bombing doctors with out borders for helping enemy troops.......

I say it is time we really consider dumping U.S.A from the U.N. before they get us in a world war or worse. Turn on the news it is starting. War with north korea, war with russia, war with... what all middle east minus iseral. Hell they made isis.

Cant wait to see what comes home to roost due to all this crap.

1: nobody is saying shooting a hospital is ever a good thing
2: if the insurgents were utilizing the hospital for military purposes and the hospital staff allowed it to happen then they were knowingly helping the insurgency and if not reported they do in fact become a military target however 99 out of 100 times they would just send in ground forces to avoid undo casualties because that is how the US military operates (Avoid collateral dmg whenever possible).
3: The U.N. literally CANT kick the US out, it also doesn't help that the UN is based in.....wait for it....New York.

So anyway, please keep your bias in check or at the least don't appear to be 100% anti american, remember you guys in Canada are America's favorite hat.

I am not anti american I like alot of them... just hate a large %. I just think it is getting to the time for them to get judged more. They kinda do what ever they want because the rest of us don't want to concern ourselves. So placing your said beliefs on other country always causes problems. But BUT this is a big but we have more in common with usa/britian then any of us would care to admit and we have stuck together since what ww1 if not longer. So it comes down to this

I am aloud to say my brother is a idiot but not you. The people who comes from the states insult Canada...alot . People from Canada insult the states...alot, But when a war breaks out against one of us we both kinda tag along.

Judge as and we'll judge you back. Don't make us take your Molson.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Actually, I will agree with you on one thing. The U.S. Does have a terrorist cell. Maybe you've heard of them. They go by the name Westboro Baptists.

I thought it was parking attendants...

Bombing a hospital is nothing new in war, and we're not getting excuses yet. The US does screw up at times but usually also admits it and tries to find out why it happened. US soldiers have actually been investigated and convicted of war crimes by the US armed forces themself. Let's wait and see what turns up before hanging anyone.

Afghan governor now saying forces, including US forces, were taking fire from light and heavy weapons from the hospital.

"In Kunduz, the acting governor, Hamdullah Danishi, also suggested that the airstrike was warranted.

He said Taliban fighters had been using the Doctors Without Borders compound to plot and carry out attacks across the city, including firing rocket-propelled grenades from the property."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghan-official-hospital-in-airstrike-was-a-taliban-base/2015/10/04/8638af58-6a47-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

 Frazzled wrote:
Afghan governor now saying forces, including US forces, were taking fire from light and heavy weapons from the hospital.

"In Kunduz, the acting governor, Hamdullah Danishi, also suggested that the airstrike was warranted.

He said Taliban fighters had been using the Doctors Without Borders compound to plot and carry out attacks across the city, including firing rocket-propelled grenades from the property."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghan-official-hospital-in-airstrike-was-a-taliban-base/2015/10/04/8638af58-6a47-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

I have a really hard time believing that US forces would authorize an airstrike, knowingly, on a Doctors Without Borders compound.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Afghan governor now saying forces, including US forces, were taking fire from light and heavy weapons from the hospital.

"In Kunduz, the acting governor, Hamdullah Danishi, also suggested that the airstrike was warranted.

He said Taliban fighters had been using the Doctors Without Borders compound to plot and carry out attacks across the city, including firing rocket-propelled grenades from the property."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghan-official-hospital-in-airstrike-was-a-taliban-base/2015/10/04/8638af58-6a47-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

I have a really hard time believing that US forces would authorize an airstrike, knowingly, on a Doctors Without Borders compound.

Ditto.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Afghan governor now saying forces, including US forces, were taking fire from light and heavy weapons from the hospital.

"In Kunduz, the acting governor, Hamdullah Danishi, also suggested that the airstrike was warranted.

He said Taliban fighters had been using the Doctors Without Borders compound to plot and carry out attacks across the city, including firing rocket-propelled grenades from the property."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghan-official-hospital-in-airstrike-was-a-taliban-base/2015/10/04/8638af58-6a47-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

I have a really hard time believing that US forces would authorize an airstrike, knowingly, on a Doctors Without Borders compound.

Ditto.

I mean, we've gone to great lengths to AVOID ever attacking places like that with airstrikes. Ground forces hitting them and minimizing collateral damage? Different story.

I feel like there is a part of the story missing.

Again agreed. Mistaken coordinates, didn't realize hospital, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Afghan governor now saying forces, including US forces, were taking fire from light and heavy weapons from the hospital.

"In Kunduz, the acting governor, Hamdullah Danishi, also suggested that the airstrike was warranted.

He said Taliban fighters had been using the Doctors Without Borders compound to plot and carry out attacks across the city, including firing rocket-propelled grenades from the property."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afghan-official-hospital-in-airstrike-was-a-taliban-base/2015/10/04/8638af58-6a47-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story.html

I have a really hard time believing that US forces would authorize an airstrike, knowingly, on a Doctors Without Borders compound.

Ditto.

I mean, we've gone to great lengths to AVOID ever attacking places like that with airstrikes. Ground forces hitting them and minimizing collateral damage? Different story.

I feel like there is a part of the story missing.

To a degree I agree with you, but remember, a commanders #1 priority is to keep his men alive. Even during the invasion of Iraq the US military did its best to not destroy specific types of buildings, IE Hospitals, Mosques, schools and such, however if they were receiving fire from those buildings they were allowed to engage.

Also the Afghans said they had several Machine guns in their, RPGs and loads of fighters. That makes me think that a ground assault on the building would have brought on unacceptable casualties among the Afghan and US Forces.

And lastly, I really like doctors without borders, and I think those guys have some seriously big balls to go around and do this. However, if they were compromised by the Taliban and did nothing about it, to the point where Heavy Machine guns, RPGs and dozens of fighters were permanently stationed in the building, then I feel that they lost their neutral status.

To be fair, that's still only if that was the case. According to MSF there was no fighting taking place within their building

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-05/msf-demands-probe-into-kunduz-hospital-bombing/6827040

I know it's natural to want it to be that there was fighting because it can help justify it in some ways, but really all you have is the Afghan govt's intel at the moment on that, and it's not like they're unbiased or super reliable...

Wouldn't DWB have said something? I thought they were pretty neutral.

They did. From my article

"Not a single member of our staff reported any fighting inside the MSF hospital compound prior to the US air strike on Saturday morning," Mr Stokes said.

 motyak wrote:
They did. From my article

"Not a single member of our staff reported any fighting inside the MSF hospital compound prior to the US air strike on Saturday morning," Mr Stokes said.

nothing like muddying up the water.

Neither side can be completely trusted, Afghans for obvious reasons and MSF because if they were hiding insurgents in their hospital then it would cast doubt on the neutrality of the organization in every country not just Afghanistan.

Well we just seemed so all aboard the "insurgents were there for sure" train I felt the other side deserved an air ha.

That's a pretty big if. Doctors without borders is a pretty well-known, and prolific, organisation. They do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated. This would be very odd for them to do.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's a pretty big if. Doctors without borders is a pretty well-known, and prolific, organisation. They do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated. This would be very odd for them to do.

And by the same token the US Air force is pretty big and well known and do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated, This would be very odd for them to do as well

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's a pretty big if. Doctors without borders is a pretty well-known, and prolific, organisation. They do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated. This would be very odd for them to do.

And by the same token the US Air force is pretty big and well known and do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated, This would be very odd for them to do as well

It would be rare for them to do so on purpose.

But if I had to choose between "MSF harboring terrorists and lying about their hospital being used for military operations" and "between Afghanistan and the US there was someone who screwed up somehow" I would pick the screwup possibility almost every time.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's a pretty big if. Doctors without borders is a pretty well-known, and prolific, organisation. They do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated. This would be very odd for them to do.

And by the same token the US Air force is pretty big and well known and do a lot of good, and are pretty dedicated, This would be very odd for them to do as well

Well, yeah, I seriously doubt this was on purpose.

 motyak wrote:
To be fair, that's still only if that was the case. According to MSF there was no fighting taking place within their building

Yeah, I've seen that phrase quoted several times. Lets unpack what it actually means. The operative word is "fighting"....which means there could have been fighting take place at ANOTHER time, there could have been outgoing fire FROM the building, there could have been a planning area in the building, and there could have been Taliban fighters not actively engaged in combat at that time hiding in the building.

All of which completely qualify for "no fighting taking place."

MSF is an organization that does good work, but I've absolutely known individuals operating under its ubrella who are not ideologically aligned with US interests.

There is also the issue that the strike was called in by Afghan authorities, which makes them the responsible party in any case.

Fire could be coming from next to the building.

Seeing the continual reporting on this I'm beginning to suspect this uncomfortable scenario

hypothetically

The Afghan government (or their local military/political commanders without central knowledge/authority) are upset that the MSF hospital is treating Taliban wounded as well as civilians (as well as any others needing treatment)

(maybe there are requests for them to stop, or to hand over the wounded Taliban, maybe there are not)

Afghan government (or their local military/political commanders without central knowledge or authority) call in made up story about being attacked from said hospital to the US air support

US air support respond as we've seen without making any/enough effort to verify the attack story


now if this hypothetical scenario does turn out to basically be what happened I hope the US tightens up it's procedures to require direct observation of enemy action by US personel before launching any future attacks

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Seeing the continual reporting on this I'm beginning to suspect this uncomfortable scenario

hypothetically

The Afghan government (or their local military/political commanders without central knowledge/authority) are upset that the MSF hospital is treating Taliban wounded as well as civilians (as well as any others needing treatment)

(maybe there are requests for them to stop, or to hand over the wounded Taliban, maybe there are not)

Afghan government (or their local military/political commanders without central knowledge or authority) call in made up story about being attacked from said hospital to the US air support

US air support respond as we've seen without making any/enough effort to verify the attack story


now if this hypothetical scenario does turn out to basically be what happened I hope the US tightens up it's procedures to require direct observation of enemy action by US personel before launching any future attacks

You do not verify whether or not someone is under attack when you are called in for close air support. The US Military is not an organization that submits to a 2-3 week long debate on the necessity of an airstrike while ground forces are engaged, they bomb the target in question, believing that the guys on the ground know what they are talking about. The blame for this if it turns out to be true is not with the air force (as much as I hate them) but with the ground forces who called in the strike.

I won't lie, I haven't been to Afghanistan since 2012 and a lot can change in that period of time, but while I was there Afghans weren't allowed to call in CAS they had to have a intermediary do it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/05/us-afghanistan-attack-usa-idUSKCN0RZ1FX20151005

Apparently, Afghan forces called in for air support...

I didn't know they could do that.

EDIT: yesterday's NYTimes seems to have more info..
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/world/asia/afghanistan-bombing-hospital-doctors-without-borders-kunduz.html

...
President Ashraf Ghani’s office released a statement on Saturday evening saying that General Campbell had apologized for the strike. However, General Campbell said in a statement that he was “aware of an incident that occurred at a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz” but suggested that it was justified, saying that the airstrike “was conducted against insurgents who were directly firing upon U.S. service members advising and assisting Afghan Security Forces.”

However, General Campbell said the military opened a formal inquiry into the attack known as a 15-6 investigation. The results will be sent up the chain of command and can lead to administrative or nonjudicial punishments, or to court-martial.
...

Do people in Afghanistan keep an AK by their hospital bed? IDK on that one....I would if I were there. I'll bet money it was something like this.....

1. Observer mistakes wounded locals for Taliban fighters, confrontation ensues & shots are fired, Afghan gov then calls in air strike, hospital gets blown to gak.

2. Doctors were treating wounded Taliban fighters (who were probably also locals), wounded fighters popped off a few rounds, Afghan then called in air strike, hospital gets blown to gak.