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 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

However, CSM has no premium assault squad.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

However, CSM has no premium assault squad.

They do indeed such as Berserkers which are awesome. It is just no one ever uses them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Intercessor wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, lots of Forgeworld hate in here.

I guess they're right though. I mean, my Solar Auxilia army ought to stand on its own two feet without Forgeworld The shipping costs are ridiculous and the army book almost broke my bank! Also they don't have drop pods.

Codex: Solar Auxilia is so underpowered, nonexistent even, that I -have- to use forgeworld units to run the army in a competitive way.

I feel your pain, Chaos players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Arvus Lighter is twice the cost of a drop pod without inertial guidance, so it is the worst delivery option ever period.

In fact, our Stormlords cost 13 times the cost of a drop pod and don't have inertial guidance! I think I just found the worst delivery system in 40k.

I don't think Arvus is too bad for renegades... 55 points can deep strike or enter normally as a flyer... 12 capacity three hull points, jink and hover... What's not to like? If you take three in a squadron they can all act independently but you have to kill all three for a kill point.

"But they don't have inertial guidance and are more expensive than a drop pod!" - every Chaos player ITT

Dozer Blades wrote:Dreadclaws are really good and well worth the points. You've got a cheap flyer that is an assault vehicle.

And you two also missed the point that both of them are Forge World.
The problem with the Chaos book is that it is openly weak, hell it is the only army weaker than the Imperial Guard right now. The Codex itself is inherently bad with only two transports, neither of which can deep strike. Most of their units are weak and/or over priced whilst their model line has not been updated in over a decade and does not even include all the options. Other boxes such as Havocs have only one of each weapon in them.
However all this comes down to the fact that GW are lazy.
And more to the point, all codex's should be able to stand alone. A codex is not strong because it can ally with X, Y and Z or because FW produce some kits for it, a Codex that requires all of that is an exceptionally weak one.

I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Rhinos are OK, but I also want drop pods.

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well.

The shear nerve of those filty chaos players. How dare they. [/sarcasm]

 sfshilo wrote:
IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

a) what about places that don't allow FW? I don't think there is much debate that IA13 is great though, but it's out of reach for some and flat out banned for others.
b) Dirge casters enable assault, which is generally something chaos wants, however, we have no method to get our guys into a position to be able to assault without taking a land raider, which is pointless due to D, haywire and grav all not giving a flying ... monsterous creature about AV14. That's kinda the point that the chaos players are making here. Your assault choices are as follows;

X in a land raider. Land raiders are bad, Mmkay? 230 points for a godhammer is not good, but it does allow for turn 2 charges. 230 points is a lot though, and still only capacity 10. Why chaos doesn't have more raider variants I will never understand. It can sort of work on the odd occassion where your opponent can't deal with AV14 at range for whatever reason. Unfortunately, X is also generally bad because CSM got the short end of the stick.
X in a rhino. Can't charge out of the rhino, have to stand around like a chump getting shot, turn 3 charge at the earliest since you need to flat out turn 1, disembark turn 2 (or move/be pinned since the rhino almost certainly got destroyed), then, and only then after 2 turns of getting shot can you attempt to charge.

And that's the only transport options we have. Is there any wonder that people complain that we have no delivery options when you look at the amount of assault focused units that are basically foot slogging infantry that need a transport to function?

And now onto the self propelled assault options;
Raptors - Mark of nurgle virtually mandatory to avoid getting gunned down by small arms fire, Still just jump troopers though, so will get mowed down since you need to survive 2-3 turns of shooting and not terribly killy even if they get there
Warp Talons - All the same issues as raptors plus they have no grenades and cost twice as much. One of the worst units in the dex.
Spawn - Mark of Nurgle still mandatory unless you need to attach a non-MoN IC, fast, durable and punchy enough, these guys do OK (note, no delivery system involved)
Maulerfiends - AV12 isn't great and neither is WS3, but relatively (for chaos) cheap and very fast is (note, no delivery system involved)
Defilers - Still WS3 and AV12, but slow and at almost twice the cost as a maulerfiend for +1 HP. No, just no. Can theoretically deep strike, but massive model + no scatter mitigation = bad times.
Mutilators - Slow and purposeful on a unit with no guns. MoN still mandatory and while DS is nice, we have no scatter reduction and 61 points per model for a combat unit that will never see combat is not great, despite what some people will try and tell you.
Bikers - T5 naturally, MoN still virtually mandatory due to how good +1T is and the proliferation of high strength rapid fire guns, though MoS gets a look in due to the FNP banner. Can jink, so has some protection against AP1/2/3 guns, not overly killy unfortunately without an attached character. Not troops unlike 2 of the big 4 (SM and Eldar) and pale in comparison to tomb blades (necrons).again, note that there is no delivery mechanism involved.
Terminators - Can be made to be killy in CC at a cost, but now kited out the same as vanilla marines, are actually more expensive with worse rules. Can deep strike, but again, we don't get teleport homers for some reason, and no way to reduce scatter. No pods to come down turn 1 either, so it's a turn 3 charge at the earliest, and that requires that you don't fail to come in on time (3 of the big 4 have reserve modification warlords), don't scatter, opponent doesn't have interceptor (hello IA, EWO riptide) and is stupid enough to stand around while you mill about waiting to assault them.

Yes, undoubtedly someone will bring up the dimensional key, but considering you realistically won't get into combat before turn 2, not only are 2/3rds of your forces coming down with no benefit, those that do still can't charge out of DS, so assuming you do come down after it's activated on turn 2, that's a turn 3 arrival and a turn 4 assault. You've got 2 turns to achieve something while the rest of your army has been playing at a disadvantage 'cause you've been cooling your heels waiting around for some guy to open a door.

Chaos has the best msu??
Someone has never heard of scatbikes.

There's ever such a blurry area between FW and 'regular' 40k. I'm fine with it but it's more the element of the unknown taking you by surprise and causing you to lose the game. Your opponent might not be happy with it and some tournaments might not allow it. FW is also extortionately expensive, there are of course 'other ways' to obtain the rules and models but they aren't for everyone.

CSM is a bad codex, but you can build a very strong army with IA13 as well. One of my friends uses a Summoning Sorcerer, triple Heldrake, triple Fire Raptor, Dreadclaw, bunker+ comms relay list and it's brutal.

I love forgeworld and allies because it allows for some very fluffy and fun lists. I love being able to bring in an assassin or inquisitor or some guard to help out my space marines. That said no faction, especially one as important to the background as Chaos Space Marine should need additional books to even be passable. One on one even if i'm not trying to make a tough list standard marines are just better

Akiasura wrote:
Chaos has the best msu??
Someone has never heard of scatbikes.

Or Gladius Strike Force...

Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

You really think thousand sons stand up to scatter bikes, grav bikes, skitarii infantry or sternguard ?

Please tell me the above is sarcasm.

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

10/10 would get trolled again

Akiasura wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

10/10 would get trolled again

I'm actually tempted by this to post up my "rumors" about the forthcoming stealth CSM overhaul...

Sad thing is, at least half of it's probably somewhat accurate too!

To me the most fun armies are made from multiple sources. I guess some people still don't get it.

 Konrax wrote:
Thousand Sons are the best msu in the game.

Chaos codex is fine and working as intended.

They have a lot going for them.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To me the most fun armies are made from multiple sources. I guess some people still don't get it.

A lot of people don't want to *have* to use multiple sources. It's nice having the *option*, but when getting a viable army requires the Codex, FW, and a supplement, and running three detachments, it feels janky (and, at least in my opinion, it *is* really janky).

Personally, as multi-source as I want to get is Codex faction plus Forgeworld. If I'm having to include multiple *factions* in an army, it feels like munchkining, and I usually perceive it as such with other people's armies unless it's very well thought out and integrated, and usually it really is just munchkining.

I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

I didn't say it wasn't the game, however, adapting means playing something that I have no desire to play and no longer having, what I consider, a coherent force simply because the rules no longer attempt to pretend to adhere to any sort of background that underpins the game. Meanwhile letting it go means fewer players for games and smaller events and fewer opponents for the game, which has been evident in many playgroups for some time.

CSM can be very good with Daemons, but then such armies are usually built with almost no actual CSM's and don't fit the background for huge swathes of background factions.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

Hence why you always see Belakor and that minimum unit of Cultsits...

Daemons end up better off with no CSM's in their army.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I disagree - this is the game now. Adapt or just let it go.

Even CSM with Daemons can be really good with no FW.

This type of attitude to me comes off as elitist and arrogant, and helps to only poison the community as a whole...
"This is the game now" is purely only true if all you care about is "winning", such as in "Tournament" environments. And I daresay, at least half of the lists you see cropping up at those kinds of events are in reality horrible fluff nightmares that owe little to the actual background of the faction(s) involved.

The vast majority of games that are played however, are most certainly not those types of mega competitive stomp fests.
So while yes, sometimes it's fun to ally Marines & Daemons, or Daemons & Renegades, or all three, etc... into the same list. But then equally, it's also just as fun to just occasionally run an actual Chaos Marine army!

Unfortunately, Chaos Marines have been so badly neglected by GW that it's become pretty much impossible to play them on their own, and shockingly include actual (gasp!) Chaos Marines as the meat of the force!
Because apparently, we're still being punished for the sins of the 3.5 codex, and having the sheer audacity to win the Eye of Terror campaign.

If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

Sure, because it so much 'fun' just scooping up your entire army by the 3rd turn, while having killed maybe a dozen enemy models at best...

It's true that in today's game, T4/3+ predominantly on foot is terribad. While Loyalists get ways around this problem, (*cough*DropPodsBikeTroopsFreeRazorbacks*cough*), Chaos not only gets to pay more, point-for-point per model, but then we're also stuck with just Rhinos & a non-functioning Land Raider.

Chaos Marines on their own just don't have any real killing power outside of a couple cookie-cutter builds. (and not everyone wants to go Nurgle!)

Even against other equally 'tame' lists, Chaos Marines that aren't Nurgle suffer badly.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you don't care about competitiveness or winning, playing standalone chaos is just fine. It isn't like the rules stop functioning.

Sure, because it so much 'fun' just scooping up your entire army by the 3rd turn, while having killed maybe a dozen enemy models at best...

It's true that in today's game, T4/3+ predominantly on foot is terribad. While Loyalists get ways around this problem, (*cough*DropPodsBikeTroopsFreeRazorbacks*cough*), Chaos not only gets to pay more, point-for-point per model, but then we're also stuck with just Rhinos & a non-functioning Land Raider.

Chaos Marines on their own just don't have any real killing power outside of a couple cookie-cutter builds. (and not everyone wants to go Nurgle!)

Even against other equally 'tame' lists, Chaos Marines that aren't Nurgle suffer badly.

If you aren't having run because your opponent's list is too powerful, then ask them to tone it down. Though it is ironic that you are uncompromisingly insisting on playing mono-Chaos, and yet are surprised when your opponent is equally uncompromising in their build.

The claim that you are stuck to Land Raiders and Razorbacks is patently false, as demonstrated by the lists if other transports in this thread.

Using Forge World units is somehow not playing Mono-CSM or anything - they are still CSM units that can be taken in a single CAD with regular dex units. Some of them are even dedicated transports, iirc.

Look at the KDK codex which incorporates CSM and daemons into one book. It's totally cool IMO and also has been proven as viable. I think it's okay to say you only want to use one codex but not right to say it's wrong for others to use more than one - which can be a way to design a really cool army... Not just something simply built to win games.