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tneva82 wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
Oh God please no. This sounds absolutely horrible.
I'm perfectly fine with new model releases and updates, hell, I'm fine with daemon primarchs making their way into 40k (those who are still alive, that is).
But we are talking about GW here. They won't stop there. They barely even know how to stop, especially with all the possibilities to utterly screw 40k setting and lore to make more money off those shiny primarch models.
I can only hope that AoS disaster had teached them something, so this won't be as garbadge as end of times, but there is still much more potential for it to be bad, than to be good.

Then again AOS might have been best thing eva that has happened to FB. Finally push players needed to take the game into their own hands rather than be at the mercy of whatever crap GW throws up.

40k could benefit from same.

Either way luckily won't affect me. I switched to 2nd ed long time ago. Short of good models won't bother me either way. I have only to gain from this. Good models gets released? I can buy them. Bad models gets released? I skip them. It's not like I need them to play since I don't have to worry about being at the top of meta. Rules gets screwed? Well good luck for GW for trying to twist me from 2nd ed. Fluff gets raped? I have all the fluff I need already in books and ebay gives me rest as I wish.

So I'm comfortably on win-win scenario. It can never be bad for me. Only neutral or various level of good.

But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.

Except players have this strong disinclination of going against official stance. Even when said official stance gives out trashy rules and stupid fluff. So until GW killed FB off no the player base wasn't going to take matters to their own hands.

But GW killed, players took matters to own hand and FB rules have never been better as a result. Yeah there's also that crappy AOS but in a world where crappy games are countless what's one more. With luck you can still get models if you like WoW style in your models(I don't but others do so for them it's source of good models in better rules).

tneva82 wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
But you could literally do the same when FB was alive. There was probably a stronger psychological barrier for doing that at the time, but I'm pretty sure most of the dedicated FB fans would still take that over their game being walked into backyard and then shot in the had like GW did. I sure as hell would if I was given a similar choice about 40k.
You may not care about new rules and lore changes and I can understand that. But there are still a lot of people who do.

Except players have this strong disinclination of going against official stance. Even when said official stance gives out trashy rules and stupid fluff. So until GW killed FB off no the player base wasn't going to take matters to their own hands.

But GW killed, players took matters to own hand and FB rules have never been better as a result. Yeah there's also that crappy AOS but in a world where crappy games are countless what's one more. With luck you can still get models if you like WoW style in your models(I don't but others do so for them it's source of good models in better rules).

I see what you mean, but I still think it's more on the side of fixing a bad haircut with a decapitation. Even if it was a really, really awful haircut.
There are possibilities to fix maybe not all, but a lot of stuff with house rules, unofficial, but widely accepted FAQs, etc. without, you know, your beloved game being murdered and it's setting being taken huge dump on.

Looks like the Age of Sigmarines is coming to 40K...

This is both off topic and pointless, and I'm not interested in continuing. People have an opinion and they will place the goalposts wherever they need to be to make that opinion correct - it seems that you've put yours on "anything that didn't exist in 2nd edition doesn't count" so that's your perogative.

I thought when going into this that the premise was "GW only produces big/monster kits" and I thought the best way to evaluate the claim was to look at the percentage of kits that have been released that were large/monsters vs the percentage of kits that were troops (handily designated by the "troop" category in the codex).

My mistake. Please by all means continue to do your thing however you want.

40 has no reason to go forwards when it has 9000 years backwards to address. 40k has a small section at the HH, and most of the stuff at the end of M41, and nothing in the middle. GW have realised that with the success of FW HH series and Calth, and with box games being a hit, they now have 2 huge cash cows.

Fantasy didn't have that, because we knew the beginning of that story via Time of Legends novels, and the whole background only being a few centuries. They had to push on and pushed too far and now they won't do that with 40k, because AoS was ripped by the customer and community upon release.

 EnTyme wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The majority of major releases we have seen coming out of GW in the past few years have included new basic troops, I really don't get where you're coming from with this "nobody ever gets basic troops" kick.

Well, if you read what I said, you wouldn't be listing a bunch of irrelevant examples. Or you still would, I dunno. Some folks just want to be contrary. I'll give you SM Tacticals and Fire Warriors. Two examples in how many years? And neither part of a big escalating event like End Times.

He literally just proved you wrong. All of the units he listed were basic troops from existing faction, not new releases. GW has been updating troops, you just refuse to admit it.

And you refuse to read what I really wrote. Not hard to prove someone wrong in that case. I said existing plastic kits do not get updated and half his list was metal/finecast going plastic, and even so he had to go back 6 years to find a total 8 examples, of them 2 actually relevant to what I said, and I admitted those freely. The second part of my argument was that I would not expect basic troop kits in an End Times type event, based on WHFB releases, which were all big, flashy kits, which ya'all willfully ignored so you could "prove me wrong" without actually addressing my arguments.

[Edited by a moderator.]

 Vulcan wrote:
Looks like the Age of Sigmarines is coming to 40K...

Not gonna happen. 40k is selling well enough that there's no need for a massive shift like that, plus the rumour says 'They want to get the same excitement as the community had during the End Times - without actually going as far as Age of Sigmar did.'

Just a reminder to keep it polite!

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:
There are possibilities to fix maybe not all, but a lot of stuff with house rules, unofficial, but widely accepted FAQs, etc. without, you know, your beloved game being murdered and it's setting being taken huge dump on.

There are possibilities but good luck trying to convince people take them. Go on. Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting. But not holding my breath while doing it! I'm not suicidial

There are individuals here and there who might be doing but wide movement? Nope that's not going to happen easily. And prerequisite is pretty much official support going poof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
40 has no reason to go forwards when it has 9000 years backwards to address. 40k has a small section at the HH, and most of the stuff at the end of M41, and nothing in the middle. GW have realised that with the success of FW HH series and Calth, and with box games being a hit, they now have 2 huge cash cows.

Fantasy didn't have that, because we knew the beginning of that story via Time of Legends novels, and the whole background only being a few centuries. They had to push on and pushed too far and now they won't do that with 40k, because AoS was ripped by the customer and community upon release.

FB had thousands of years to cover as well so...

And btw AOS result won't be really affecting new 40k THAT much. If it's coming first half of next year book etc are pretty much done by now. Design started long time ago.

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

the_scotsman wrote:
This is both off topic and pointless, and I'm not interested in continuing. People have an opinion and they will place the goalposts wherever they need to be to make that opinion correct - it seems that you've put yours on "anything that didn't exist in 2nd edition doesn't count" so that's your perogative.

I thought when going into this that the premise was "GW only produces big/monster kits" and I thought the best way to evaluate the claim was to look at the percentage of kits that have been released that were large/monsters vs the percentage of kits that were troops (handily designated by the "troop" category in the codex).

My mistake. Please by all means continue to do your thing however you want.

If you are looking at possibility of chaos getting revamp of existing plastic basic troops isn't relevant comparison to see how much of THAT they have done? Yes chaos will be getting new models. Nobody has ever denied that. But if they haven't been doing much in form of revamping existing plastic kits of basic troops recently why you think chances of them doing that is high for chaos?

They haven't even released plastic aspect warriors and THAT would be plastic kit that has never existed so even higher priority than revamping existing plastic kits. Not to mention release eldar players have been waiting anxiously.

They had the jetbikes done decade ago. They even postponed them in favour of plastic wraithguards that also gave up brand new unit.

Revamping existing plastic kits has been on very low priority. Ask any high elf player how long they had been waiting to have their core troops get new plastics! (that never materialized).

And you know what? This actually has business sense. Revamps would need to be very good to move people to replace existing models with new ones(especially with GW prices). You already have that unit! Why buy them again? New unit sells for both old and new players...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.

What do you call FAQs like ITC, ETC, and all of the others? They're attempts to fix the game.

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.

What do you call FAQs like ITC, ETC, and all of the others? They're attempts to fix the game.

Band-aid. What FB players did as well. But that won't fix them at the core and there's limit how far they are willing to go. Have they redone points from the ground up? Changed rules completely to fix balance issues?

Small band-aids aren't enough. Wasn't in FB, even less for 40k.

Let the end come, I have lost all that I love and there is no storm gamesworkshop can muster that can break the back of a corpse more then the first.

They took WFB and turned it into sifi... Anything can happen tommorow all your models could be trash and need to be rebased on flying bases because.

To all the Chaos-haters who think we don't deserve a proper model line overhaul, keep in mind a few cold, hard facts;
1. None of our basic kits prior to the newest stuff, (Raptors, Fiends, Hellbrute, Burny-Chicken), come with more than half their basic upgrade options.
The basic Marine kit is the only thing that's remotely close to a 'complete' kit, yet it is still missing a decent amount of basic wargear, and due to its extreme age, is also highly prone to miscasts & badly molded detailing. (despite being one of the least 'detailed' kits still on the shelf!)

The Terminator kit? I challenge anyone to find another kit outside of the even more lamentable Khorne Berserkers that's missing as many basic options as our dumpster fire of a Termie kit! Keep in mind, you can't even build 5 basic grunts from the kit because shockingly, you only get 3x Combi-bolters + Power weapon!! (and of that, 2 are axes and one is a maul!)
That kit is literal garbage in plastic form... Beyond the fact you can't even build anything remotely close to a functional squad, it's still missing even a single option for the Combi-Plasma, Power sword & Lightning claw (god forbid getting a pair of 'em!)

Our kits are from a different era altogether, and there is now so much wasted, empty space on our sprues, unlike the newer kits of the past 6-7 years which are literally packed to the point of bursting with wargear options & additional 'extras' from ammo pouches, grenades, purity seals, gubbins, etc...
Imagine for a second a Space Marine Tactical Squad that was still stuck using just a missile launcher/flamer/melta/plasma gun + power sword/fist/plasma pistol - and then realising that is the single most complete kit from which 80%+ of your various infantry squads are then built from.

That is the problem with keeping the current Chaos kits; they're missing too many basic options, while everyone else gets access to their stuff.


2. Visually, the entire Chaos line is a complete and utter mess...

We have almost ALL of our characters + Berserkers who are still sporting the 90's "death metal & hamfists the size of their heads" goofiness. Meanwhile half our line is early to mid 2000's of being "Loyalists but with SPIKES!" styles, and then the newer Dark Vengeance era stuff with the super mutated (mono-pose) Chosen & Raptors.

There is absolutely NOTHING that visually ties the army together. It's just a giant conglomeration of nearly three decades of radically differing styles all lumped together, leaving the Chaos line with no identity or theme beyond, "lolz!randumb!"



Chaos Marines really need & at this point are well deserving of the Dark Eldar treatment...

It's only right that they finally get such a total re-boot, considering the sheer importance of Chaos to entire story of 40k as a whole!

What Chaos haters?

Most regular posters will be aware of your one note posts ranting about the state of Chaos, but where ITT are people saying anything to the contrary that they're at worst neutral about them getting updated?

Stop tilting at windmills.

The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!

Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"

Experiment 626 wrote:
The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!

Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"

Pretty sure nobody here said that.

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

Oh really? I have yet to see any tournament that doesn't use the official rules.

What do you call FAQs like ITC, ETC, and all of the others? They're attempts to fix the game.

Band-aid. What FB players did as well. But that won't fix them at the core and there's limit how far they are willing to go. Have they redone points from the ground up? Changed rules completely to fix balance issues?

Small band-aids aren't enough. Wasn't in FB, even less for 40k.

I was never into FB, but 40k's mechanics and principles are not inherently flawed. There is no instance anywhere in the rules for anything that justifies shutting down a whole game and ceasing all support for it so a bunch of folks could have easier time having their way with the rules, when most of the things can be tweaked inside the borders of those mechanics via house rules and FAQs.
Besides, I doubt that those rule changes you are talking about are as widely and unquestionably accepted as official rules for FB. Same goes for 40k.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!

Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"

And who's been saying chaos doesn't deserve? I know for sure I haven't(would love some to build up my 2nd ed chaos force). Just that they aren't likely since revamp of existing kits hasn't been that high priority...So I'm expecting more of daemon primarch, new thousand sons, maybe some new tzeentch themed elite unit...That sort of stuff.

I'm not expecting revamped basic chaos troops. Would be happily surprised and chance is >0% but it's hardly a done deal.

Plenty of other models have been deserving new models for ages and haven't received. Plastic aspect warriors, ork wartrakk(which is older than chaos line and 2nd ed orks simply don't fit with modern orks at all).

Tons of models that could benefit from revamp. But do they get them el pronto? Nope. Because GW prefers to focus most of design strength to NEW units that are easier to market than rehash of old. So while they might come one day it's not quickly.

 Ghaz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Try to convince 40k players to take game to their own hands and fix it from the ground up like fantasy players did. I'm waiting.

40K players have been 'fixing' the game for decades.

No, never.
They made their own FAQ's to get clear rules, but a massive rule change to correct mistakes from the official ones never happened no matter how bad the rules were

I welcome a re-vamp of 40k. The rules are darn near impenetrable for new players. Some simplification and streamlining would be a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The people who think that ancient kits full of missing options isn't an issue in any way shape or form maybe?!

Apparently we're not allowed to have basic toys because... "Chaos!"

Pretty sure nobody here said that.

I was going to say, is there seriously anybody here that doesn't think the basic Chaos Marine kit needs an update? I think the confusion is because of the long string of comments about IF there will be a new kit. There is on question a new kit is needed, its more of a question of GW's intent.

There are some for old 3rd edition kits still being used that are good kits that don't need replacing. The old Ork Boyz are still great models, and really, what else more can be done with the Eldar guardian and Nid gaunt kits to make them much better? The same cannot be said for the Chaos Marine plastics. Not only are the wargear options not up to snuff, the design is dramatically out of sync with the rest of the army.

So much salt, so much... What CSM need (modelwise) are upgrade kits, like the Space marines got. One for Chosen, one for Havocs. And some legion specific ones. But I don't think we'll see Chaos soon.

I don't think anyone can argue the 40K ruleset as-is is healthy in any way, it's a lumbering behemoth built on an 18 year old corpse, there's a solid argument to be made for a reboot of the mechanics to something, if not simpler, then at least fundamentally different.

The problem with this (the same problem 2nd and 3rd edition faced) is that a fundamental shakeup of the rules requires that you immediately release rules (no matter how basic) for every single force you support, and all your players gop from massive customisable and varied forces to a handful of generic statlines for an unfamiliar system. It's a pain in the ass, as AoS players have discovered

There's no easy solution - too few changes and it feels like yet another patch on the bloated decades-old monstrosity, too few and you risk alienating a lot of people (and unlike WFB, GW seem to think 40K generates enough sales where that may actually be a concern

My take? a revamp might be fun, just not to quite the extent of AoS

So, just as a casual observance, does this mean we will finally rehit the attacks on the Blackstone fortresses, Eldrad's death, the 13th crusade finally succeeding, and the after effects of what I remember as incredibly inaccurate results of a world challenge in which chaos won?

Experiment 626 wrote:
To all the Chaos-haters who think we don't deserve a proper model line overhaul, keep in mind a few cold, hard facts;
1. None of our basic kits prior to the newest stuff, (Raptors, Fiends, Hellbrute, Burny-Chicken), come with more than half their basic upgrade options.
The basic Marine kit is the only thing that's remotely close to a 'complete' kit, yet it is still missing a decent amount of basic wargear, and due to its extreme age, is also highly prone to miscasts & badly molded detailing. (despite being one of the least 'detailed' kits still on the shelf!)

The Terminator kit? I challenge anyone to find another kit outside of the even more lamentable Khorne Berserkers that's missing as many basic options as our dumpster fire of a Termie kit! Keep in mind, you can't even build 5 basic grunts from the kit because shockingly, you only get 3x Combi-bolters + Power weapon!! (and of that, 2 are axes and one is a maul!)
That kit is literal garbage in plastic form... Beyond the fact you can't even build anything remotely close to a functional squad, it's still missing even a single option for the Combi-Plasma, Power sword & Lightning claw (god forbid getting a pair of 'em!)

Our kits are from a different era altogether, and there is now so much wasted, empty space on our sprues, unlike the newer kits of the past 6-7 years which are literally packed to the point of bursting with wargear options & additional 'extras' from ammo pouches, grenades, purity seals, gubbins, etc...
Imagine for a second a Space Marine Tactical Squad that was still stuck using just a missile launcher/flamer/melta/plasma gun + power sword/fist/plasma pistol - and then realising that is the single most complete kit from which 80%+ of your various infantry squads are then built from.

That is the problem with keeping the current Chaos kits; they're missing too many basic options, while everyone else gets access to their stuff.

Come back when you have to buy two boxes(Cadian Shock Troop/Catachan Jungle Fighter main box and either a Heavy Weapon Squad box or a Heavy Weapon Team[Catachans can only get the Heavy Weapon Squad box now]) and a blister(Cadian Melta or Plasma Guns are sold in a blister, same with Sniper Rifles) or a third box(Cadian or Catachan Command Squad) to field one squad with the possibility of all its options(each box only includes a minute amount of the options; Cadian box comes with Flamer and Grenade Launchers only).

And that's if you run Veterans rather than Platoons.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Visually, the entire Chaos line is a complete and utter mess...

One could say it's "chaotic."

I'm sorry, but does anyone else see the irony in arguing for a unified look for forces of Chaos ?

---

The whole point of the 40K fluff is that the universe is on the brink of destruction, and has been for 10,000 years, but never quite gets there.

The only thing they could do to shake it up without utterly destroying it is awaken the Emperor. Then the IoM would be free to fight each other over who is the heretic.
The idea was brought up in the old Inquisitor game that there are 3 outcomes.

If the Emperor awakens, some will think it's a work of the Chaos gods and divide the IoM into civil war.
If the Emperor dies, Warp Navigation will become difficult, the church will collapse, some will think it's a work of the Heretics and divide the IoM into civil war.
If the Emperor dies and instantly reincarnates, as some think he will do, some will think he's an imposter and it's a work of the Chaos gods and divide the IoM into civil war.

---

As already mentioned, pushing 30K is also viable route. New books, new models, same setting, doesn't break the 40K universe.

---

I'd absolutely poop my pants is Demiurg(Squats) reemerged.

--

There hasn't been anything other than clickbait and wishful thinking for the release of 8th Edition 40K, that I have seen.
With the work on the FAQ's the timing seems dubious. An actual 8th edition, and not an updated 7th edition, rulebook would require actual rules changes.

Funny thing is GW want to move the story forward -by bringing back primarchs, wulfen, and just go deeper in to the old grudges of 30k -that happen to be a highly popular setting.

Perhaps we will se some of the epic events of the heresy mirrored, just with the AoS promise of gaming events/tournaments that actually have consequense for the course of the end times.

Hey, It would actually be kind of cool if we the players actually could bring down the end times on the game. (spoiler: Tau is the new masters of the universe