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This thread crops up every year, but perhaps with it being an election year the OT seems worse than usual. Like most forums you have the posters who you gravitate to because of their posting style/tips/etc., then you have your clique of Mean Girls who manage to stay on just the right side of the ban hammer. Some Moderators are fantastic and typify the dedication of a volunteer position in the community. Other will stalk users from thread to thread as soon as they post, or ones may fabricate reasons to take action.

You can always ignore people to cut down on the noise to signal ratio, or avoid certain threads whose topics almost inevitably lead to disagreements and locks.

Knowing the probability of getting attacked minimizes my posting on Dakka or anywhere else. I usually shrug it off but it can be a distraction.

I agree with the OP, but I have come to understand forums are actually tailor made for sharp exchanges.

Frothers is simply crazy with abuse, so Dakka is not the worst.

I also wish there was a maximum thread length and a way for moderators to delete things that simply say nothing. When I see a thread that really interests me and then realize it is 50+ pages long I do not even bother to click.

A lot of posting successfully on dakka is really common sense. First, don't wade into an argument. It's probably not worth your time. Second, never wade into a meta-argument: where the discussion is no longer even about the points, but in whether somebody used a straw man fallacy or not. My rule is that when people start sincerely pointing out fallacies or quoting dictionary definitions, it's just a scrum.

Third: have a valid point. Share new facts, bring a fresh insight, share your experiences while not overly generalizing. Bare statements of like or dislike are mostly noise. Fourth, As a rule, positive or upbeat noise is still better than negative noise.

If you think of your posts as part of a conversation, and you post to further that conversation in a productive way, than anybody that attacks you is probably out of line, and others will call them on it.

In my experience, as a rule of thumb, we humans tend to be pretty egocentric. So the definition of "toxic behaviour" or "toxic environment" many times equals "a behaviour I disagree with" or "an environment I dislike".

With my standards in mind, I don't really consider Dakka to be a "toxic" place at all. I actually find it an interesting forum where vastly different opinions can be read. There are way worse places out there. The worst ones are the "resonance chambers" where everybody thinks more or less the same, and anyone with a different opinion or mindset is usually quickly ostracised or even kicked out.

That is not to say we could not be a bit more polite sometimes, myself included. But well, everybody can get quite passionate about their hobbies, and we're not exactly an exception. I think the mods do a good job overall keeping things civil.

I don't see Dakka as any more, or less, toxic than what currently passes for society as a whole. Due to fairly recent world events, large swathes of people are very pissed and polarized at the moment, and that can't help but become manifest on Dakka when hot-button topics pop up on the boards.
Take a quick run around some of the posts and topics in the OT for some examples of what I'm talking about. Just a sign of the times, imho.

 JamesY wrote:

 Runic wrote:

Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.

Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.

My ignore list is empty and will stay that way.

My advice wold be to not become too engaged with someone who has a 'negative' opinion, if you have to post the same information/opinion twice in the same thread then just walk away because if you don't the thread will just turn into a cyclical argument and spoil it for everyone else. No one is interested in an entire page of back and forth replies between 2 people.

Its fairly civil here really. A sprinkling of keyboard warriors and a few absolute throbbers but there are far worse places out there.

I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.

At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.

It was also a special type of punishment used on the Something Awful forums, it was called "Hellforum" or something IIRC, Lowtax said it was seldomly used though, as banning is easier.

On topic though, I personally feel that this place isn't as toxic as it used to be, as people tend to disappear if they keep on ignoring repeated warnings and suspensions. It also helps that the current stable of mods has had its rotten apples removed over time.

I think passionate people expect that this forum is an echo chamber like some other hobby forums, DakkaDakka isn't that, people give their opinion, even the ones you don't want to hear, some people cannot accept that.
Then there are the people devoid of sarcasm that take every post serious, a sorry lot that is.
I never use the ignore button, it would loose a lot of entertainment for me

Also it depends on which part of the forum you venture the hobby forum is usually the most mellow place.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.

At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.

I hate that idea with a passion, but then I have only seen it implemented on Reddit where the mods are insane, and PMing a mod to ask why you were banned will just get you a 72 hour mute on PMs and no explination.

"Forget it, Jake; it's Chinatown"

I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.

(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)

 master of ordinance wrote:
I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.

(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)

I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.

Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.

Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Your post is two years too late.

Closer to 20 years too late.

I was on Decipher.com discussion boards back in my Star Wars CCG days in college (1996). People that loved the game were still dickheads to each other. This is not a recent phenomenon. Since the invention of ANY anonymous means of expression, there have been people that treat others like crap. Roman graffiti was not kind to Caesar, Tell the Times (local newspaper allowed you to write in your own editorials and would publish them) back in the 80s and 90s was full of racist and callous remarks until it was discontinued.

We are not more negative now. You're looking at the internet through rose colored glasses.

Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.

(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)

I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.

Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.

Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.

I'm not even a teacher and your posts make me want to go through them with a red pen!

But, taking your points..

People don't like change. It's not the product of some sweeping stereotype you seem to wish to apply to gamers, you can take any interest that people are passionate about (again, common to, but not exclusive to, gamers) and most any sort of change will meet with a mixed reaction at best.

People are entitled though. They're entitled to be pissed off when that change somehow impacts on their enjoyment of what they do. Whether that's pissed at the fact that thanks to another price hike they can't afford to embark on a project they were excited to do, or pissed that the latest update has nerfed their faction or made another one too strong. They're also entitled to be pissed when the gradual erosion of the player base by years of successive poor decisions, bad design and price rises means there's nobody to play anymore.

I mean, how dare they look at a model available to another faction, see how much more efficiently it does something (or everything in some cases) for an equivalent investment in points (or even cash!) and feel hard done by, they should just shut up and play unbound or start a new army, amiright?

People are also entitled to vent their frustrations anywhere they are permitted to do so, such as a forum designed to discuss precisely those sorts of topics.

People are also entitled to disagree, but so frequently those disagreements boil down to dismissal of those frustrations as "hate" rather than any sort of constructive back and forth it's no wonder people get angry. Most people are remarkably tolerant, IME, until they either feel like they're being taken for fools or not being heard.

You're quite right that this is a worldwide business, but as your post, and probably whole viewpoint I'd wager, is heavily GW-centric, it fails to account for all the other companies who are quite successfully making money without engendering such division and conflict in their player base. The ones that play test, work hard to offer value, actively mange their game should play testing not catch everything and actively engage with their players/customers.

The ones who's boards on Dakka don't offer anything like the toxicity of anything GW related.

I'm not sure "insulted" is quite the right term, but as you've used it, I'd say that being taken for granted and subject to blatant cash grabs and being milked for cash to mask falling unit sales for years is probably going to make people feel pretty darned insulted.

Not the most effective way of getting all that money they want, as can be evidenced by the last few years financial reports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.

Is the fact I now know at least two of the posters on your ignore list a symptom of me spending too much time here, or an indication the posters in question have a real issue?

Dorn IS the most handsome Primarch!

#Fact

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Runic wrote:

Personally I just put all of those individuals on ignore, and the dakka experience has improved vastly. Out of sight, out of mind. I recommend doing that very thing, it works.

Best advice. My ignore list is pretty long. And credit where it's due, most of the individuals who seem to cause people grief are the first to point out that you can just ignore them if you don't like what they have got to say.

My ignore list is empty and will stay that way.

My advice wold be to not become too engaged with someone who has a 'negative' opinion, if you have to post the same information/opinion twice in the same thread then just walk away because if you don't the thread will just turn into a cyclical argument and spoil it for everyone else. No one is interested in an entire page of back and forth replies between 2 people.

Its fairly civil here really. A sprinkling of keyboard warriors and a few absolute throbbers but there are far worse places out there.

I just want to sneak back in and express my love for the beautiful turns of phrase in that last sentence.

 Azreal13 wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I have got to admit that I have seen this growth too. That said, the state of 40K and the introduction of AoS have not helped.

(And yes, I have been getting a little snarky myself lately)

I think it has alot to due with the general crowd that minatures bring. Many tend to be obsessive and all in type, when things change it tends to really upset them.

Also the culture of most places have become intitled where if they do not like the direction of a company or feel it is unfair it is against them personally. The internet gives people the idea that because they can complain and people agree with them they are in the majoirity and any acts against that crowd real or not is a direct attack.

Look at people talk about balance in points and how they feel directly insulted because their dreads are different. Blood angle players, orks
Or how chaos was not updated correctly
Or wraith knights

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

People lose sight that this is a world wide buisness and they want money.

I'm not even a teacher and your posts make me want to go through them with a red pen!

But, taking your points..

People don't like change. It's not the product of some sweeping stereotype you seem to wish to apply to gamers, you can take any interest that people are passionate about (again, common to, but not exclusive to, gamers) and most any sort of change will meet with a mixed reaction at best.

People are entitled though. They're entitled to be pissed off when that change somehow impacts on their enjoyment of what they do. Whether that's pissed at the fact that thanks to another price hike they can't afford to embark on a project they were excited to do, or pissed that the latest update has nerfed their faction or made another one too strong. They're also entitled to be pissed when the gradual erosion of the player base by years of successive poor decisions, bad design and price rises means there's nobody to play anymore.

I mean, how dare they look at a model available to another faction, see how much more efficiently it does something (or everything in some cases) for an equivalent investment in points (or even cash!) and feel hard done by, they should just shut up and play unbound or start a new army, amiright?

People are also entitled to vent their frustrations anywhere they are permitted to do so, such as a forum designed to discuss precisely those sorts of topics.

People are also entitled to disagree, but so frequently those disagreements boil down to dismissal of those frustrations as "hate" rather than any sort of constructive back and forth it's no wonder people get angry. Most people are remarkably tolerant, IME, until they either feel like they're being taken for fools or not being heard.

You're quite right that this is a worldwide business, but as your post, and probably whole viewpoint I'd wager, is heavily GW-centric, it fails to account for all the other companies who are quite successfully making money without engendering such division and conflict in their player base. The ones that play test, work hard to offer value, actively mange their game should play testing not catch everything and actively engage with their players/customers.

The ones who's boards on Dakka don't offer anything like the toxicity of anything GW related.

I'm not sure "insulted" is quite the right term, but as you've used it, I'd say that being taken for granted and subject to blatant cash grabs and being milked for cash to mask falling unit sales for years is probably going to make people feel pretty darned insulted.

Not the most effective way of getting all that money they want, as can be evidenced by the last few years financial reports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

Put haters on ignore. Poof, you never have to see their 100th complaint in as many days about how underpowered the Blood Angels are, or how not allowing FW in your tournaments/FLGS/Pick-up-games/bathroom is a disgusting house rule, or how Dorn is not the most handsome primarch of all them all.

Is the fact I now know at least two of the posters on your ignore list a symptom of me spending too much time here, or an indication the posters in question have a real issue?

Made my point perfectly lol...... You litteraly are the exact person I described. But I am out I feel your hatred flowing. Take a breath relax some it is a game.

I'm intrigued how you came to that conclusion? Far from any sort of hate filled rant I'm pretty sure I made logical points?

But, ironically, you've just made my point about how any amount of reasoned criticism will be dismissed by some as hatred, largely because there's no logical counter to it or perhaps simply no capacity.

I have simply moved on to other games, dropping into the odd 40K General or N+R GW thread is about the limit of my engagement with the system these days, I'm just quietly painting my backlog and keeping an eye out for a time when I'm excited to play 40K again.

If you think you can characterize that as hatred, then I'd warn you you'll stretch my, and a lot of others I'm sure, belief in your credibility.

Yeah that seems like a really low bar for what counds as 'hate'. I mean Az didn't even bold anything or use caps lock.

HOW ABOUT NOW??!!!!

I have been here a long time (Wow, 2005! That was before Iphones!) and it hasn't changed at all.

OP, I would suggest that you are the one who has changed and that is why you are seeing the same behavior in a new light.

The change is to be commended!

 kronk wrote:
Dorn IS the most handsome Primarch!

#Fact

It is known.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

Exactly!

Then a month/two months/whenever the heck I remember it I take someone off of thr Ignore list, see if I still have a temptation to use a Whiffle bat on them, and if not then they stay off of the Ignore list.

More often than not, I find that the Ignoree no longer posts at all.

Just yesterday I was thinking of how much nicer Dakka seems these days than when I first joined. (Part of that is learned behavior - so I avoid the type of threads that raise my blood pressure.)

And part seems to be that there is less knee-jerk defense of GW these days.

There are fewer posts blaming the difficulties that GW has been facing on the unemployed young Cypriots.

The Auld Grump

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

Same here. I have only ever put one person on ignore (and took them off ignore after a few months) but as HBMC says, it was more about reminding myself to ignore them rather than relying on the site software to ignore them for me, as it were. I think putting someone on ignore can also have a sort of ... therapeutic effect? in that you are engaging by disengaging.

As to whether Dakka Dakka has changed in tone - I think it is less ranty than in days gone by and, as a mod, sometimes I wonder if we are too hands-on, even considering that, if anything, our base line policy is to err towards hands-off. I don't see much harm in letting people rant at each other if that's how they want to spend their time so long as it doesn't get personal and remains, broadly speaking, on topic. Also, I don't understand the complaint that "posters are critical of GW" ... I think GW has shaped up quite a bit of late but until very recently it was difficult to see how people could avoid being critical of GW!

 Manchu wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

Same here. I have only ever put one person on ignore (and took them off ignore after a few months) but as HBMC says, it was more about reminding myself to ignore them rather than relying on the site software to ignore them for me, as it were.

As to whether Dakka Dakka has changed in tone - I think it is less ranty than in days gone by and, as a mod, sometimes I wonder if we are too hands-on, even considering that, if anything, our base line policy is to err towards hands-off. I don't see much harm in letting people rant at each other if that's how they want to spend their time so long as it doesn't get personal and remains, broadly speaking, on topic. Also, I don't understand the complaint that "posters are critical of GW" ... I think GW has shaped up quite a bit of late but until very recently it was difficult to see how people could avoid being critical of GW!

my beef is not that "posters are critical of GW"...
differences of opinion are often enlightening...
my beef is that posters make it personal against people who enjoy GW products...

i find that having personal insults hurled at me just because i enjoy painting Space Marines, and love the GW miniature aesthetic, art, and fiction, makes it an unpleasant experience to post here..
being told my posts add nothing to the conversation, that i have poor taste, or that i am not capable of critical thought, just because GW is first among the dozen or more mini companies that i support, really makes it hard to enjoy this site...
the fact that the Mods will let those insults slide, and then drop the red text when i am defending myself is very discouraging...

like i said, i see an increase in rudeness...
it is possible to have differences of opinion without hurling personal insults at the person you disagree with, but i guess that is just not as much fun

cheers
jah

To disagree without being disagreeable. We've disagreed, Jah, sort of, about base enhancements, but I did not think either of us was disagreeable.

I find it hard to understand how people will argue matters of personal taste, or preference, but they do. That is where I've seen toxicity, not on this forum but on another that I very infrequently visit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never used to put people on ignore, but really I use it not so much to stop me from seeing their posts, but more to remove my temptation to reply to them.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'd love a function that the mods can sanction a user where they're able to post, but are unaware that their posts aren't actually visible to anyone else, I'd think we'd find any persistent flame baity accounts would soon move on when nobody ever took the bait for their latest "Eldar aren't OP" thread or any other similar topic which is clearly designed by the attention seeking.

At another forum I've been a member of for 20 (!) years we have that feature. It's called "Being sent to Coventry", and the user has no idea that no one can see their posts. There's also the 'discouragement' mode, where you will get longer load times, be logged out randomly and generally have you life made difficult by the forum software.

Passive Aggressive Software. We are living in the golden age.

I dunno, here it's like parliamentary procedure to discuss anything and has been for a while. for the most part it's the knee-jerk reactions that get smacked down, but the actual discussions take a long time to get the wording just right. Lots of insults and passive-aggressive language can be found in most threads on general discussion, but if they cross the line the mods step in. When I want to have the full internet discussion on a topic I post here, when I just want a saloon atmosphere I post on SA. it's a lot more relaxed there, and you don't need to couch statements in a clear, concise manner. As an added bonus you don't need to be passive-aggressive, you can just be aggressive, haha.

I don't think either style is a good or bad thing, and both have evolved over time. I know when I first started posting here I wouldn't even read the general discussion threads and just stayed in Painting and Modelling for the most part. Now the general boards are much more civil and far less clique-ish. I know back in the day you weren't just arguing with one poster, but rather a faction! Now a well-worded argument can even get detractors from your view to at least see the point you are making.

Strangely enough, I feel like P&M and the general boards have switched places. I enjoy reading the general boards, and even post from time to time. I haven't posted in P&M in quite a while and stopped reading it due to people just being crabby in painting threads. I feel like a consensus got reached on what techniques are good or bad, and any deviation from those gets harsh criticism. Encouragement of new or different techniques seems verboten now. I just don't see the wild ideas that used to be prevalent, and criticism is much more swift and harsh. That's a real shame, because I hate the Warseer P&M section now because every army has it's own sub-section. You don't get cross-pollination like here on DAKKA, where there's just one section for P&M. (or like on SA, where it's all just in two threads!)

 pox wrote:
I dunno, here it's like parliamentary procedure to discuss anything and has been for a while. for the most part it's the knee-jerk reactions that get smacked down, but the actual discussions take a long time to get the wording just right.

Not to argue with any of your points, but one observation: Dakka has a fairly international user base, and English is not the first language for quite a few of our regular posters. As such, sometimes it is necessary to offer your point a few different ways, as not everyone reading may catch your meaning on the first pass.

On other boards I frequent, where the base is pretty uniformly from the US, this is less of an issue.