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He could be literally unkillable for free and not be OP.
We have no idea what kind of damage he is able to dish out. 5 warp charges and a few random strength psychic powers aren't exactly the most scary thing in the world for that many points.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

You shoot it.

I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

Boo hoo...
I plan on buying two.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

As with his other threads , he takes the well know counters to things as says you can't use them "because" and i assume its "because" it guts his entire argument
It is also is for the fact with he would have to not only buy those models but also that he refuses to change his lists in the slightest way. see his other threads where tac can't kill something its op or other such nonsense.

In addition to the traktor kannon / boy combination, any full unit of tankbustas or lootas gets 1 wound on him per turn.

And he's going to hit me with a couple of witchfires? Fry up a couple of boyz? Why would I care?

The Orks are terrified snotless of almost everything in 40k.

Magnus isn't one of them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

So you got nothing.

About as I suspected.

And for the record, even drop pods, sternguard and Coteaz isn't a real answer, if you're playing against an opponent who is even half competent.

If I have Magnus and I look at your side of the table and see that you have 2 drop pods and 20 sternguard that are coming in via deep strike, and I know that you are deploying first, I'm putting Magnus in reserves.

The sternguard trick will only work in 1/12 games, assuming you don't have anything to improve your roll to steal. And even then, if I see that you are stealing on a 4+, I'm still probably putting Magnus in reserves.

A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

Admittedly, Boyz can't touch him unless they get the charge. If they do get the charge, they need...

7 wounds, 4++ rerolling 1s is 16.8, wounding on 6s is 100.8, hitting on 4s is 201.6... Is about 51 Slugga Choppa Boyz on the charge. That's only 306 points, right?

kambien wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

As with his other threads , he takes the well know counters to things as says you can't use them "because" and i assume its "because" it guts his entire argument
It is also is for the fact with he would have to not only buy those models but also that he refuses to change his lists in the slightest way. see his other threads where tac can't kill something its op or other such nonsense.

Agreed. Space marines are somehow disallowed drop pods.

Oy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Admittedly, Boyz can't touch him unless they get the charge. If they do get the charge, they need...

7 wounds, 4++ rerolling 1s is 16.8, wounding on 6s is 100.8, hitting on 4s is 201.6... Is about 51 Slugga Choppa Boyz on the charge. That's only 306 points, right?

They only need 5/6 wounds with the traktor kannons...don't forget the st9 hit he takes when he faceplants on anything except a 6.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

So you got nothing.

About as I suspected.

And for the record, even drop pods, sternguard and Coteaz isn't a real answer, if you're playing against an opponent who is even half competent.

If I have Magnus and I look at your side of the table and see that you have 2 drop pods and 20 sternguard that are coming in via deep strike, and I know that you are deploying first, I'm putting Magnus in reserves.

The sternguard trick will only work in 1/24 games, assuming you don't have anything to improve your roll to steal. And even then, if I see that you are stealing on a 4+, I'm still probably putting Magnus in reserves.

Okay, so I wipe the rest of your army out since you have 650 points held in reserves, with no reserves manipulation. Scary!

Also, I already figured out two ways to do it with Space Marines. Just because you can't figure out how to beat Magnus with other armies doesn't mean it's impossible. Admittedly, it has a good chance of making CSM one of the "Haves" as far as armies go, and yes, there are armies that are "have-nots". And that sucks for those players, and should be rectified. But Magnus, from what we've seen, certainly ain't broken. He's an expensive model, and good at what he does, but he's far from unbeatable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

Out of curiosity, do you actually have an argument that doesn't depend on everyone else answering your questions?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

I don't know, but I suspect if the answer is anything less than "will RFP Magnus in a single shooting phase" you'll probably be unhappy.

Chaos players need a break. Magnus gives them one. It's not how I'd do it - I'd rewrite their Codex so it doesn't suck - but it's something. Let them be happy.

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

I dunno because I don't carry my codices everywhere with me. It fires 6 S6 shots ignoring cover, 2 TL S7 shots, and a S7 AP2 shot all at once. That's gonna ground it.

3 shots at S7, 5 at S6. Some are ignores cover, some AP2, some AP4, none of that matters because of his Invuln.

So one Onager firing (at BS 7, since you're popping your +3 BS Doctrina when Magnus comes on) is .88 hits per shot. That's 2.67 S7 hits and 4.44 S6 hits per Onager, for 1.34 wounds from the S7 and 1.48 from the S6, for .56 wounds from S7 and .62 from the S6 past his saves. So that's 1.18 per Onager, or 6 Onagers to kill Magnus.

Edit: Wait, some of that is Twin-Linked. That'll up the damage. Also, some is Interceptor, so, you know. Firing at Magnus on his turn.

What's the endgame for this thread? Convince us all you're right?

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)

When the unit in question IS NOT IN THE CSM CODEX.

Tradio, what is wrong with you?

I just don't get any of this.

Do you think a 650pt model should be easy to kill? Shouldn't be hyper-competent? Who's going to take a 650pt dude that can die in a single phase? There's a reason nobody bothers with Land Raiders, y'know.

Also Imperial Knights are not even marginally OP. They're tough, scary beasts - but for what they cost I'd expect nothing less. What do you think they should be?

Let's do the math. Note that the ignore cover and AP 2 don't really matter, since he has a 4+ rerollable invuln.

Note that Magnus is T7.

Of those 6 S6 shots:

6/1 X 2/3 = 12/3 will hit.
4/1 X 1/3 = 4/3 will trigger a saving throw.

Of the 2 TL S7 shots:

2/1 X 2/3 = 4/3 will hit initially, whereas 2/3 will trigger a reroll.

Of the rerolls:

2/3 X 2/3 = 4/9 will hit on the reroll.

This means that 16/9 will hit overall.

16/9 X 1/2 = 16/18 or 8/9 will trigger a saving throw.

Of the S7 AP 2 shots:

1/1 X 2/3 = 2/3 hits
2/3 X 1/2 = 1/6 triggering a saving throw.

1/6 + 8/9 + 4/3 = 3/18 + 16/18 + 24/18 = 43/18 attacks triggering a saving throw.

43/18 X 1/2 = 43/36 will either cause a wound or trigger a reroll.
43/36 X 2/3 = 86/108 or 43/54 will cause a wound outright.
43/36 X 1/3 = 43/108 will trigger a reroll.
43/108 X 1/2 = 43/216 will bypass the reroll.

This gives us a total of 43/54 + 43/216 = 172/54 + 43/216 = 215/216

Congrats. All of those shots, and you've ALMOST caused a wound with your dunecrawler.

Magnus might have a 1/3 chance of getting grounded. Good luck.

And again, this relies on the unreasonable assumption that Magnus' invuln hasn't been buffed.

Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

I'm buying it cause I like the model and have a finecrap lord of change at the moment that I'd love to replace with a nice conversion model that I've built myself a bit.

I don't really care about the chaos mortals right now, but hope they get fixed nonetheless.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

I factored that into the math.

JNAProductions wrote:Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

Did you factor in that an Onager is probably going to be BS 7 on the first turn it shoots Magnus?

 Traditio wrote:
Let's do the math.

*does math*

Dunecrawlers are minor components of an AdMech army; if these little tiddlers are doing more than one wound per turn to my 700pt Daemon Primarch, then I'm not going to take the Daemon Primarch because he is overcosted.

I get that you have a general objection to Magnus-like units in 40k, but that doesn't mean Magnus-like units are OP, or even objectionable. The problem isn't with these units - it lies with the fact that most 40k crunch is godawful 4:59pm-on-a-Friday dialled in garbage. If the rest was brought up to scratch then units like this would seem silly, but otherwise they'd fit right in.

Tradio, why are you not complaining that Tau can't hurt Magnus?

If the chaos player could field 3 Magnus's, I'll bet Tau would table him on turn 1, or certainly by turn 2.

Why are you so worried about this?

 JNAProductions wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

Did you factor in that an Onager is probably going to be BS 7 on the first turn it shoots Magnus?

No. But the result is still going to be somewhere in between 1-2 wounds per vehicle.

How many of those things are you likely to take in a TAC list?

And again, this assumes that his invuln hasn't been buffed. This is not a reasonable assumption.

Okay. How about this? BS 7 Skitarii Vanguard-cornerstone of any TAC list made with Skitarii.

7 wounds, 16.8 through his 4+ rerolling ones, 8.4 because Rad Carbines do double damage on 6s, 50.4 hits needed, 56.7 shots needed. Or in other words, 19 Skitarii Vanguard. Not even 200 points.

Traditio you sound like a doomsayer standing on the street corner shouting at people that the end is nigh. You constantly make these threads with very inflammatory remarks (and in this case downright insulting, really stop shaming people for buying a model they like, they didn't write the rules, GW did) and you're railing against a model that isn't released and we have no confirmation of it's points cost and abilities beyond rumours and hearsay. Every thread you make you end up with almost the entirety of the thread speaking against your opinion and even showing very valid points as to why your logic is flawed (or in some cases you were outright wrong about the rules you spoke out against) and you just make up new and ever morphing reasons to try and justify yourself. At a certain point can't you just ever admit you were wrong, that the majority of posters confronting your theories and fearmongering aren't all wrong. I feel you need to take some time away from the internet and do some self reflection on your relationship with this game and its players (many of whom you insult regularly even though they have truly done you no harm). If 40k is causing you this much stress and anger might I sugest going on hiatus from it? I hear infinity or Malifaux are both very fun games with mostly (if not all) infantry and don't suffer from the scale problems 40k does currently. Perhaps when 8th edition (hopefully) hits next year it may be a more pleasant environment for you to return to. At the very least I agree with you on one thing: 40K does have some balance problems, it'll never be perfect but currently it is very out of sync. I still thoroughly enjoy the game however as I have a great group I play with and we always strive to make each match fun and enjoyable, even the ones I brought a wraithknight to (by the way I have never won any match I brought my wraithknight in, just a funny side note).

To address your original post: The problem is not players buying OP models, it's GW writing imbalanced rules. Don't blame the players for something that GW did. Secondly you don't know the final rules for magnus, no one except a select few do, so how about you wait till after he releases to rail against him if he deserves it then. Lastly regardless of his rules if he costs a lot of points he can be balanced, he's still one model and in larger games you will always outnumber him and his forces, even if you can't kill him reliably you can focus his more vulnerable units and win the game on objectives.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

Conscripts

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

MSU, 5 random powers is not that scary.

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Can't think of anything.

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Termagaunts

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Not sure.

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Traktor cannons and a bunch of boys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that 4++ rerollable is a joke. We all know that's going to be a 3++ rerollable or better in practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

What if you go second?

What if Magnus is placed in reserves?

Then you have a gak load of points in reserve?

If I go second as DW against an army with so many buffs via the Psychic phase I'm screwed anyways, not just because of magnus.

And I would like to thank IF for his awesome post!