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ced1106 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
But selling to non-backers at GenCon? Uncool.

Par for the CMON course. They're one of the first KS to have backers pay their own shipping.

Because people were losing money on shipping.

It's pretty well documented in MULTIPLE cases.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not happy about it in the context of backers no longer receiving the favorable treatment they had a few years ago. It's almost like backers are being taken for granted by CMON, with CMON using exclusives to take advantage of the OCD backer who has to collect everything. I've already voted with my wallet, and will buy the game OLGS if it's on sale, as well as back companies that treat their backers more favorably. Plenty of games in the closet, too many miniatures to paint, and plenty of good deals at the OLGS and other KS!

ced1106 wrote:
It's almost like backers are being taken for granted by CMON, with CMON using exclusives to take advantage of the OCD backer who has to collect everything

That holds a lot less water after Black Plague, where I think there was only a single, very late, KS Exclusive add-on that you had to purchase.

Backers receive plenty of favorable treatment in the form of, typically, between $50-$150 of free stuff.

Except that it's not that difficult to get "free stuff" *and* better treatment of backers. My empty wallet is evidence enough of this. Reaper Bones KS III is giving away lots of additional content with their KS, and TerraTiles has been adding new art. Both of these companies have much better customer interaction than CMON and provide "free shipping" to certain customers as well. (TerraTiles provides free shipping to US, UK and FR, despite being a small company of two in Florida, USA.) Z:BP certainly gave away a lot of miniatures (which is why I backed it), but their non-Zombicide KS have fallen under the "$100 for 150 miniatures" threshold, resulting in less "free stuff" than other KS I've backed.

Certainly if only "free stuff" is what *you* consider to be proper backer treatment, then vote accordingly with your wallet. I'd like a little more, or it's off to the OLGS I go -- and not just for a game I didn't back. Miniature Market, BTW, had Zombicide: Angry Neighbors for $25 on its Prime Day sale a few days ago, and Temple of Elemental Evil for $35 a few days before that. For $100 and free shipping, I can get quite a bit of value from the OLGS -- without waiting months for my stuff!

I still think I got a great deal, personally. I have other Eric Lang games to play, and other minis to paint, for a couple of months while I wait for my shipment.

Yes, BR was a great deal, particularly if you wanted Viking miniatures, and I know some backers REALLY like Vikings. Zombicide and Bones are "greater" deals, but aren't Vikings. I know if CMON puts out a Cthulhu-based KS, I'll put aside my opinion about CMON because they put out very good miniatures.

The only thing that would piss me off about others getting their hands on it earlier than me by a few weeks is that it kills off the secondary market. So if I Kickstart I would like the option to sell off my pledge for a better price to people who didn't want to pledge. Historically about a month after the KS ships prices seem to drop down to 20% of retail (normal discounter rate), and if the product is on sale earlier that happens much faster. Usually 20% off retail translates to losing money on the deal, which is pretty irritating.

But for a KS I actually want to buy and hold, then I don't care too much. But for say Relic Knights, which I decided I didn't want based on the final sculpts, I was happy I could move it so fast for pretty much what I paid.

I think it's pretty reasonable for game manufacturers to not care all that much about buyers who are mostly in it for the secondary market possibilities.

ced1106 wrote:
Except that it's not that difficult to get "free stuff" *and* better treatment of backers. My empty wallet is evidence enough of this. Reaper Bones KS III is giving away lots of additional content with their KS, and TerraTiles has been adding new art. Both of these companies have much better customer interaction than CMON and provide "free shipping" to certain customers as well. (TerraTiles provides free shipping to US, UK and FR, despite being a small company of two in Florida, USA.) Z:BP certainly gave away a lot of miniatures (which is why I backed it), but their non-Zombicide KS have fallen under the "$100 for 150 miniatures" threshold, resulting in less "free stuff" than other KS I've backed.

So..basically your major gripe is that you don't get free shipping? IMO, that's a pretty sad gripe. Shipping is expensive. Especially when you have to do so out of the country.

Bones does absolutely nothing for me. But then again, I'm not trying to collect as many mediocre miniatures as possible. This "100 for 150" threshold is something I find a bit ridiculous. But like I said, I've got enough gak that I don't need another 150 miniatures "just because it was $100."

Certainly if only "free stuff" is what *you* consider to be proper backer treatment, then vote accordingly with your wallet. I'd like a little more, or it's off to the OLGS I go -- and not just for a game I didn't back. Miniature Market, BTW, had Zombicide: Angry Neighbors for $25 on its Prime Day sale a few days ago, and Temple of Elemental Evil for $35 a few days before that. For $100 and free shipping, I can get quite a bit of value from the OLGS -- without waiting months for my stuff!

Aside from the fact that you already waited months to pick up Angry Neighbors...which KS backers have had for quite some time.

I get waiting on some items. I'm not buying any of the Artists boxes because A) I don't need them right now, and B) I know I'll be able to get them later.

I mean, you can talk about "greater deals" all you want, but for someone that thinks a lot of Bones minis are junk, has no need for a bunch of random miniatures (say, someone that DOESN'T RPG), and would rather get a game included with their miniatures (SURPRISE! There's a game included with Blood Rage!), it's hardly a "greater deal."

But for "lack of free shipping" to be your major gripe? I struggle of having a lot of empathy there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wehrkind wrote:
But for say Relic Knights, which I decided I didn't want based on the final sculpts, I was happy I could move it so fast for pretty much what I paid.

I sold half of my four army pledge the first month it arrived.

It paid for my entire pledge + around $70 bucks.

 cincydooley wrote:
So..basically your major gripe is that you don't get free shipping?

Going in circles. Do what you want.

ced1106 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
So..basically your major gripe is that you don't get free shipping?

Going in circles. Do what you want.

Plan on it.

Whether or not something has free shipping will continue to have zero impact on it.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I think it's pretty reasonable for game manufacturers to not care all that much about buyers who are mostly in it for the secondary market possibilities.

I don't, actually. I think it is largely a mistake they are making. In economic terms they are asking backers to invest in a risky proposition. The risk is part in total terms (it might not ever happen) and part in actual output terms (it might not be what they wanted), as well as time risk. By time risk I mean the fact that a KS is pretty much always late, and even if it is not the time it takes is eroding discount you received on the goods, as effectively you are loaning the company the money for however long it takes to deliver. So at some length of time to deliver you are better off just investing the money somewhere else and paying discounted retail, even if there is zero total or output risk.

So, lets say you KickStart a project for 50$, and the end product will cost 100$ retail. There is a chance, say 2%, that the project will fail after funding and you will never see anything. There is another chance that the end product will be crap, or at least so different from what was promised that you don't want it. Say this is 25%; it will vary based on what is shown during the KS, but 25% seems pretty generous across all KS. So your expected value of the end product is (1-.25)(1-.02)*100 = 73.5$ Consider that if you have to wait 2 years to get the stuff, at 5% interest you could have made 5$, and you are down to about 68.5$ of value on your 50$ pledge. Not bad, but not amazing either when you backed to get a 50% discount, which depending on the KS might be a lot bigger than actually happens. Not to mention the fact that most things discount at 15-20% off MSRP every day, so the final sales price could really be 80$, with an expected value at pledging of 58.8$ less interest, in which case one might reasonably wonder why they are bothering. 9$ is not an exciting return for a two year loan of 50$, not when there are minis to buy now.


BUT! Oh ho, what if you are very certain you can resell you pledge for at least what you paid for it, and maybe more, because non-backers won't have it in hand? That starkly changes the expected value of the pledge, as if you decide you don't want it (at a mere 25% probability) that can turn into a profit opportunity, or at least help break even. So, assuming that the end price is 100$ again, being able to sell the pledge for the full pledge amount if you don't like it pushes the expected value to: (1-.02)*( (1-.25)*100 + (.25*50))= 85.75$. That isn't too shabby an increase. If you expect that you can sell your pledge for closer to full MSRP (perhaps because of an exclusive thing, or because it is not in stores at all and some people need it NOW), your expected value is (1-.02)*( (1-.25)*100 + (.25*100))= 98$. So 85.75$ or 98$, both less interest, vs 73.5$, all assuming zero discounts on MSRP.

So if you are the manufacturer looking for early investors, do you want to offer an expected return of 73.5$ or 85.75-98$ on a 50$ investment?

This is a common thing in durable goods markets. University booksellers, for all their perfidy, buy back books because they know most students don't expect to use the horrible texts their professors suggest, and so expect little return on their 300$ investment. Offering to buy it back takes some of the sting out of that. Having a strong secondary market for a good increases the purchase price for the good when new, as it provides assurance to the buyers that their purchase either make them happy, or they will get a good chunk of their money back.

So yea, manufacturers who diminish the value of a good in the secondary market, especially for early investors, are being very unreasonable and likely costing themselves a fair bit of early investment capital.

 Wehrkind wrote:
BUT! Oh ho, what if you are very certain you can resell you pledge for at least what you paid for it, and maybe more, because non-backers won't have it in hand?

This actually reminds me of the early days of KS, when projects had a "retailer pledge". Some still do, but, as creators stopped putting "backer first", retailers who backed the project to resell product were finding that their competitors who didn't back and used the conventional retailer-distributor chain were receiving -- and selling -- product first. I'm sure the "retailer pledge" would go away, anyway, because retailers don't want their money tied up for a year or more. You'll often hear on BoardGameGeek, "I'll buy it at retail". When the creator ships to retail before backers, that's what happens. With OLGS have sales only weeks after receiving a new game (including non-KS games), gamers less interested in the exclusives have less incentive to back.

*However* I think the additional funding contributed by secondary market sellers, retail backers, etc. isn't important to the creator at a certain point in funding. That is, at some point in a crowdfunding project, the creator begins to lose money, as they add more SG's and put more stress (ie. more orders) on their ability to fulfill them. I would think there's a range of funding that a creator wants, between enough funding for the project not to lose money because of not enough orders, and so many orders that they have to cope with overcapacity. As an oversimplified example, if they have a warehouse that holds 10K units, the cost to warehouse orders doubles when they need to store 11K or 10% more units. Indeed, for Zombicide 3, CMON shipped out some base games early because the cost to warehouse these games *exceeded* the cost to ship and handle these units. Similarly, it's a better business model to make the base game and expansions before the exclusives, because both backers and retailers will receive this product. However, since the exclusives haven't been made yet, and the creator doesn't want these base games and expansions sitting in the warehouse, a creator has an incentive to ship to retailers first. Less scrupulous creators who have spent all their project money have sent product to retailers first because of cash flow.

tldr: Get rid of your costliest customers first if you don't need them. See also: International shipping.

EDIT: Should mention, then, that secondary market customers benefit backers, since *backers* want the SG's reached.

ced1106 wrote:
I know if CMON puts out a Cthulhu-based KS, I'll put aside my opinion about CMON because they put out very good miniatures.

Are you not tracking the Others - 7 Sins?

It should be coming out soon, and the monsters are fantastic, even if not traditional Cthulhu-styled.
____

ETA - I agree with both Wehrkind and ced on the economics of KS.

ced1106 wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
BUT! Oh ho, what if you are very certain you can resell you pledge for at least what you paid for it, and maybe more, because non-backers won't have it in hand?

This actually reminds me of the early days of KS, when projects had a "retailer pledge". Some still do, but, as creators stopped putting "backer first", retailers who backed the project to resell product were finding that their competitors who didn't back and used the conventional retailer-distributor chain were receiving -- and selling -- product first. I'm sure the "retailer pledge" would go away, anyway, because retailers don't want their money tied up for a year or more. You'll often hear on BoardGameGeek, "I'll buy it at retail". When the creator ships to retail before backers, that's what happens. With OLGS have sales only weeks after receiving a new game (including non-KS games), gamers less interested in the exclusives have less incentive to back.

*However* I think the additional funding contributed by secondary market sellers, retail backers, etc. isn't important to the creator at a certain point in funding. That is, at some point in a crowdfunding project, the creator begins to lose money, as they add more SG's and put more stress (ie. more orders) on their ability to fulfill them. I would think there's a range of funding that a creator wants, between enough funding for the project not to lose money because of not enough orders, and so many orders that they have to cope with overcapacity. As an oversimplified example, if they have a warehouse that holds 10K units, the cost to warehouse orders doubles when they need to store 11K or 10% more units. Indeed, for Zombicide 3, CMON shipped out some base games early because the cost to warehouse these games *exceeded* the cost to ship and handle these units. Similarly, it's a better business model to make the base game and expansions before the exclusives, because both backers and retailers will receive this product. However, since the exclusives haven't been made yet, and the creator doesn't want these base games and expansions sitting in the warehouse, a creator has an incentive to ship to retailers first. Less scrupulous creators who have spent all their project money have sent product to retailers first because of cash flow.

tldr: Get rid of your costliest customers first if you don't need them. See also: International shipping.

EDIT: Should mention, then, that secondary market customers benefit backers, since *backers* want the SG's reached.

I agree with you over all, though I would point out that people who like having the added assurance of an active secondary market are not necessarily the best backers to remove at the margin. Plus, it might be easier to just limit the stretch goals or what not than to make your project less attractive to the more... discerning kick starter backer. I suspect charging for shipping (and indirectly removing ROW backers) is the better way of doing that.Then you shift the extra cost (shipping) to the good world (project ships) and not to the bad world (doesn't ship).

It is interesting to live in a world where an abundance of demand for your product is the problem to be remedied

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Are you not tracking the Others - 7 Sins?

I was, but Reaper Bones III KS has its $50 Mythos expansion, and Cthulhu Wars will have Onslaught 2 coming up!

The Others sculpts look more like modern-day nightmare figures. I'll pick it up if it goes on sale at the OLGS. Still haven't played the Dreamblade stuff I bought on clearance from the FLGS!

Speaking of the OLGS, Zombicide's Angry Neighbors is on sale at Cardhaus for $38.

After seeing the final models I'm seriously regretting not going in on this :/ - don't suppose anyone's interested in offloading their stuff when it arrives? I'll pay a modest premium + shipping for the whole base pledge, or if you bought it for the models and want to offload the duplicate sculpts I'll happily discuss that in PMs.

 Yodhrin wrote:
After seeing the final models I'm seriously regretting not going in on this :/ - don't suppose anyone's interested in offloading their stuff when it arrives? I'll pay a modest premium + shipping for the whole base pledge, or if you bought it for the models and want to offload the duplicate sculpts I'll happily discuss that in PMs.

Are you primarily interested in the KS items?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
After seeing the final models I'm seriously regretting not going in on this :/ - don't suppose anyone's interested in offloading their stuff when it arrives? I'll pay a modest premium + shipping for the whole base pledge, or if you bought it for the models and want to offload the duplicate sculpts I'll happily discuss that in PMs.

Are you primarily interested in the KS items?

Everything really; the Mountain Giant and Wolfman especially are what made me make the offer rather than just waiting and grabbing the core box retail(I don't go to cons so that's not an option), but I'd also love to get my hands on many of the warrior, leader, & shaman sculpts(hence willingness to take duplicates if nobody wants to offload their whole pledge) for use as Norsemen/Marauders in Mordheim(the female ones in particular).

Shoot me a PM. I can prolly make this happen.

Ugh. I pledged a dollar, and then neglected to check the email account connected to that pledge and missed out on the PM and KS stuff. Anybody think they'd let me be a super-late addition here?

Probably!

They're usually pretty open to that.

Bottom line: it don't hurt to ask!

Unless they've changed their policies, CMoN's been pretty flexible about changes in the past.

Mine arrived a couple of days ago.

The big minis are good, but the human-sized ones do not appear to be "incredibly detailed" as claimed on the KS... I would guess they are slightly more detailed than Bones, but nothing like as detailed as GW's standard of plastic mini over the past five years or so. Somewhat disappointed. I guess I will (a) try playing the game and (b) prime and ink the minis and see if that makes a difference, before complaining.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Mine arrived a couple of days ago.

The big minis are good, but the human-sized ones do not appear to be "incredibly detailed" as claimed on the KS... I would guess they are slightly more detailed than Bones, but nothing like as detailed as GW's standard of plastic mini over the past five years or so. Somewhat disappointed. I guess I will (a) try playing the game and (b) prime and ink the minis and see if that makes a difference, before complaining.

Too late!

Can you take some pics and post them here?

Ha! I meant before making a formal complaint to CMON

My phone is currently dead but I'll try to borrow my partner's phone tonight and get some pics.

I have to disagree, they all seem pretty decent to me.

I'm making that comparison against other CMON models though, like Zombicide. And the only other plastics I've had on my table in the last year or so has been Malifaux, and nothing is beating that.

The dude with two spears (one in each hand) is cast so the two spears touch... and that means they are both bent, in such a way that I don't see it would be possible to unbend them without cutting them apart somehow. All the warriors with spears / banners have bending issues, though I'm hopeful that there will be some way to set the shafts somehow (boiling, like Reaper Bones?). Wary of risking it till I have info from someone who's already tried it though.

I think the detail is pretty good in general,

and outstanding for a pre-assembled/single piece boardgame minis

(they're not resin detail tough, but that was never on the cards)

although the spears on mine are indeed bent too

Boiling should work just fine.

I'd recommend putting them in an ice bath directly after reshaping.