Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a rules question regarding detachments and factions in 7th edition.

The rulebook states that all codex suppliments count as the faction the suppliment is for (crimson slaughter is chaos space marine faction for example)

It then states that a combined arms detachment must be entirely comprised of a single "faction" not "codex"

Correct me if I am wrong but this means you could potentially mix and match units from codex: chaos space marines, suppliment: crimson slaughter and suppliment: black legion all in the one combined arms detachment.

An example could be a
HQ - Daemon prince with the axe of blind fury selected from C:CSM
TROOPS 1 - unit of chosen selected from S:BL
TROOPS 2 - unit of possesed selected from S:CS

this combined arms detachment is comprised of a single faction so I see no real issue here?

 The World XEater wrote:
I have a rules question regarding detachments and factions in 7th edition.

The rulebook states that all codex suppliments count as the faction the suppliment is for (crimson slaughter is chaos space marine faction for example)

It then states that a combined arms detachment must be entirely comprised of a single "faction" not "codex"

Correct me if I am wrong but this means you could potentially mix and match units from codex: chaos space marines, suppliment: crimson slaughter and suppliment: black legion all in the one combined arms detachment.

An example could be a
HQ - Daemon prince with the axe of blind fury selected from C:CSM
TROOPS 1 - unit of chosen selected from S:BL
TROOPS 2 - unit of possesed selected from S:CS

this combined arms detachment is comprised of a single faction so I see no real issue here?

That depends on wording. For example; Clan Raukaan says this: (emphasis mine)

Clan Raukaan wrote: A Clan Raukaan detachment is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Space Marines. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that must be used in addition to the material found in Codex: Space Marines. When choosing a Clan Raukaan detachment, you may only use the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.

If Crimson Slaughter has similar wording, then I imagine not. However, I believe you may still run CAD 1 as CSM and CAD2 as CS. That's how I roll with my Iron (Back)Hands these days.

In order to have chosen troops yoiu must have a BL detachment.

In a BL Detachment your characters cannot select artifacts from the Choas SM codex.

I am sure Crimson slaughter has similar wording.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In order to have chosen troops yoiu must have a BL detachment.

In a BL Detachment your characters cannot select artifacts from the Choas SM codex.

I am sure Crimson slaughter has similar wording.

CS does have similiar, but does specify that CS can ally with CSM.

Which is fine, CSM can now Ally with CSM, it does not mean that they can be an allied detachment to CSM(in 7th).

The "Can Ally" clause in all the supplements is now a relic of 6th when you could only take a second detachment as an allied detachment(The 2000 point+ second primary had to be the exact same detachment). An ally in 6th was an allied detachment, Allies in 7th can be either allied detachments or another CAD. Allied detachments have a rule stating that they may not contain units of the same faction as the Primary detachment and Supplements are coinsidered the same faction; so if your Primary is either BL or vanilla CSM, then you cannot have an allied detachment of CS(but you can have 3 separate Allied detachments of CSM, BL, and CS if you have another faction as your Primary, all Battle Brothers to each other).

and generally you can use only one supplement in your army (unless the supplement has a different wording; AFAIK, all of them have)

having mixed stuff in the same CAD brings all kinds of problems. It's better to have different CADs, one for each book

Pg 118 of the BRB states:

"In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."

This is very cut and dry actually. The only restriction in placing a unit in a CAD slot is that it must be from the same faction. Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion, and Crimson Slaughter are all in the same Faction. RAW, your list is Battle-Forged.

The problem is we don't know what a "Farsight Enclaves Detachment" is. We don't know what a "Crimson Slaughter Detachment" is. Etc.

Does it mean that a Faction with any models from those supplements makes your CAD a named detachment? Its unclear and certainly not RAW. For example, in Farsight Enclaves we have many restrictions based upon "a Farsight Enclaves Detachment". But, we do not know how this interacts with a CAD. If we take Farsight as our Warlord, take O'Vesa, Take Crisis Troops, and an ECPA Riptide do we have a Farsight Enclave's Detachment. Well, we have a CAD with Farsight as its Warlord, which has all units from a Farsight Enclaves Detachment. But, the CAD requirements is based upon Faction, Tau Empire. We still have a Tau Empire CAD, we just chose to take all units from FE. We may call this a Farsight Enclaves Detachment, but it is still just a Tau Empire CAD.

It gets messy, BAO and NOVA so far have ruled it that your Warlord determines which books is used for general rules, but specific selections are based on army list entries. Reecius' Frontline Gaming Article for BAO and 7th Ed List Building

Here is an example.

CAD: Faction Tau Empire

HQ
FE: Farsight(Warlord)
FE: O'Vesa
TE: Tau Empires Commander(Access to Tau Empires Signature Systems)

Troops
FE: 3Crisis(Bonding Required, meets minimum Farsight Enclaves Detachment requirement)
FE: Crisis(Bonding Required)
TE: Firewarriors(No Bonding Required)

Elites
FE: ECPA Riptide

Heavy
TE: Broadside Team(No Bonding Required)


Here is logically how to deconstruct this army and an attempt to illustrate it how it will be played for the BAO(According to Reedius) and NOVA(According to MVBrandt). These guys are on the same page and right now the first major tournament of 7th is following this reading of the RAW.

We have a Faction Tau Empire Combined Army Detachment. There is no such thing as a Farsight Enclaves CAD, only a Tau Empires CAD.

Within this CAD we have a Farsight Enclaves Detachment and a Tau Empires Detachment, both of with belong to Faction Tau Empire. To take Farsight and his Command Team we were required to have a Farsight Enclaves Detachment with Farsight as our Warlord. Farsight has been taken and declared Warlord. But, we also have the requirements of Battlesuit Spearhead, so we must take at least one squad of Crisis Troops three strong and they must have Bonding Knives due to Ta'Lissera Bond. We can now take more Crisis Troops from FE so long as they fulfill Ta'Larissa Bond. We then take a Riptide from FE who has access to the ECPA. All units chosen from FE must fufill the Ta'Lissera Bond. All FE models benefit from Ork Hunters. Divergent Destiny also precludes these models from being fielded alongside either Aun'Va or commander Shadowsun. If we wanted to take even a single FE model, we were required to fufill the Battlesuit Spearhead.

Now, concurrently we take a Tau Empire Detachment within our CAD. We select a Tau Commander and give him Tau Empire Signature Systems as he is not bound by the Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclave. We also select Firewarriors who are not required to pay for Bonding Knives nor do they benefit from Ork Hunters. We also take TE Broadsides who aren't bound by Ta'Lissera Bond or Ork Hunters.

Now, there are couple of minor problems with this interpretation. It can be argued that if you are taking Farsight Enclaves units that you must have a Farsight Enclaves Detachment and that detachment is your CAD. That would mean that every unit in that CAD is bound by the Battlesuit Spearhead, Ork Hunters, Ta'Lissera Bond, Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclave, and Divergnet Destiny restrictions. Ie a Tau Empires Commander with Tau Empire Signature Systems would be in violation of these rules. The main problem here is that a CAD does not belong to the Farsight Enclaves, it is Faction Dependent, ie Tau Empires Faction and that if a unit appears in multiple sources, we choose which one it is from. CAD are all about Factions, and Supplements don't have their own Factions, they belong to their parent Factions and if a unit appears in more than one spot, we choose and identify where it is being selected from. FE cannot affect TE choices.

And if we break the rules and rule a Faction Tau Empire CAD with Farsight Enclave units is a Farsight Enclaves Detachment, then the Allies rules come into play and we could ally Tau as we did in 6th.


The main changes of Faction Dependent CAD that can be drawn from many sources is that we have a standar FOC limit if we are not allowed to take multiple CAD. In a touranment, we may be limited to a 1CAD +1AD. This limits unit selection and makes 4 Wraithknights or 4 Riptides(without O'Vesa) or 12 Eldar Jetbikes or 6 Annihilation Barges illegal. It does allow some cherry picking for Codices with supplements, but each unit selected from a Supplement must abide by the restrictions within that Supplement ie to take an ECPA Riptide I must have a unit of 3 Crisis Suits Bonded taken from FE and cannot take Shadowsun or Aun'Va. And no model can take Signature Systems from two sources, ie a Commander cannot take Iridium Armor from TE and the Talisman of Arthas Moloc from FE as it would be a FE selection and violating the Signature Systems rule in FE.

Hope this helps.

 cardboardcrackhead wrote:
Pg 118 of the BRB states:

"In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."

This is very cut and dry actually. The only restriction in placing a unit in a CAD slot is that it must be from the same faction. Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion, and Crimson Slaughter are all in the same Faction. RAW, your list is Battle-Forged.

Read the individual Supplements; they all only allow their units and rule in a "Supplement Detachment". It is a requirement of the supplementsw themselves.

So No, you cannot mix CSM artifascts, Black Legion Chosen, and CS possessed

Kel,
Where does it state that Units selected to fill a Supplement role are 'Supplement' Units and only able to fill a 'Supplement' Detachment?

I do see such Restrictions on some Special Rules and War-gear options, which would create problems for a 'Mixed Detachment' idea but they are no where near as impossible to overcome. Some sort of Restriction stating that Units selected for a 'Supplement' Role could only be part of a 'Supplement' Detachment would be something else and I would like to see one quoted. Given the amount of time it has been discuses, the closest I have seen so far is a 'no two supplements in the same Army' type restriction which even seems to be Supplement specific in and of itself. Now I do see a requirement that we use the mother Codex's Army List when it comes to purchasing Units to fill a Supplement role, just to stop us from claiming an entirely different Codex's Unit as a legal choice for such a Role.

It fails to address the fact we have permission to select Units from Supplement and Codex into the same Detachment by default.

FAQ on FE: Battle Suit Spearhead, bonding ritual, Ork hunters, and Signature systems are Both Farsight Enclaves detachments(Battlesuit Spearhead is where you get Crisis teams as troops, and signature systems is where you can give your riptides signature systems).

Black Legion Supplement; black Legion at war page, First among Traitors: "when choosing a BL detachment, units of chosen are troops instead of Elites". Then you have CHAOS ARTEFACTS:
"Any character in your Black Legion detachment that can select Chaos Artefacts cannot select from those listed in Codex:Chaos Space Marines, but can instead select from the Chaos Artefacts of the Black Legion at the points costs shown." Ten millenia of Hate forces BL detachment units to take Veterans of the long war.

Clan Raukaan, Clan Raukaan at war, March of the Ancients: "In a Clan Raukaan detachment..." Scions of the Forge: "For each HQ choice in a Clan Raukaan detachment..." Gifts of the Gorgon: Any character in your Clan Raukaan detachment..."

Kel,
Where in those Rules does it state that a 'Supplement Detachment' can not contain Units from the same Faction?

That is what is lacking, a specific Restriction that addresses and over-turns the previously granted permission to include any Unit from the same Faction within a Combined Arms Detachment. While all the Restrictions you have posted do trigger based on the Detachment being X or Y, none of them provide us with instructions to regulate what X or Y actually is. If anything, all of those Rules would require us to determine what X or Y is before they can even come into play. Even after determining Detachment, those Regulations can still be obeyed when selecting units from Supplements and Codex's for a single Detachment.

It is just currently pointless to even bother trying but nothing I have seen to date makes it illegal.

All those rule give you definitives on units purchased for the supplement detachment. Since you buy units from the parent codex for the supplement to begin with, and the rule concern the specified units in the supplement detachment, there is and can be no such thing as a simple parent unit within a supplement detachment and it is completely impossible to plug a supplement unit into a parent detachment.

Kel,
They give us Restrictions on what the Units themselves may gain access to, not on their location within the Army.

If they are not in a supplement detachment they have no access nor restrictions and thus are not actually supplement units, even if you follow the restrictions in purchasing the unit. Case in point, a FW unit that is bonded in a TE detachment is not a FE FW unit(they have ork hunters, which is by detachment only).

Similarly a unit of Elites chosen with Veterans of the Long war in a CSM detachment are not a BL unit and cannot be troops.

Kel,
A Restriction on what Special Rules or War-gear the Model can start with is not a Restriction on where that Model can be placed in your Army.

That is the lone issue I have right now, the fact these lines are being quoted as if they state that Units purchased from a Supplement must begin in a 'Supplement Detachment.' While they create additional Restrictions on which Units can be fielded, these Restrictions do not make it illegal to put Units from Supplement and mother Codex into a single Detachment. They seem more designed to make it a 'why bother' scenario, one would sacrifice the only benefit gained from using a Supplement in the first place by trying to make a Mixed Detachment, but an action doesn't have to have a purpose to be legal.

The other side of the debate, are units purchased from or for, is far more interesting and more likely to produce a Rule preventing Mixed Detachments for good.

There is no such thing as a Farsight Enclave's Detachment as Detachments are Faction Based not source material based.

"A Farsight Enclaves Detachment" means a Faction Tau Empire CAD or AD with at least one unit selected from the Farsight Enclaves. "A Farsight Enclaves Detachment" references the portion of the Tau Empire CAD which has taken Farsight Enclave units. Each unit selected from the Farsight Enclaves gains all the benefits and restrictions that entails including Battlesuit Spearhead, Ork Hunters, Ta'Lissera Bond, Signature Systems, Farsight's commander Team, and Divergent Destiny. IE to take any unit from the Farsight Enclaves Supplement you must fulfill Battlesuit Spearhead and Ta'Lissera Bond. You are also subject to Divergent Destiny

It does not preclude us from taking units from the Tau Empire Codes in our Tau Empire CAD. These units would not be subject to the Farsight Enclaves limitation nor would they gain their benefits.

Farsight Enclaves is not a Faction, it is a subset of the Tau Empire Faction, just another source.


Hypothetically if we can have a Farsight Enclvaves Detachment, which means the entire CAD belongs to Farsight Enclaves, then the allies section in the Farsight Enclaves Detachment is rules leagal and we can again ally Farsight Enclaves to Tau Empire overruling the Allied Detachment's cannot have the same faction requirement.

Its one for the other. So far, BAO and NOVA are ruling it that way.

Might be relevant.

www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/06/11/writing-a-40k-list-for-7th-ed-40k-and-the-bao-2014/

 Lobukia wrote:
Might be relevant.

www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/06/11/writing-a-40k-list-for-7th-ed-40k-and-the-bao-2014/

Lol, I linked that about a dozen posts up or so. MBrandt and Reecius are on the same page agreeing that is how you build a list and at least will be for those two events.

JinxDragon wrote:
Kel,
A Restriction on what Special Rules or War-gear the Model can start with is not a Restriction on where that Model can be placed in your Army.

That is the lone issue I have right now, the fact these lines are being quoted as if they state that Units purchased from a Supplement must begin in a 'Supplement Detachment.' While they create additional Restrictions on which Units can be fielded, these Restrictions do not make it illegal to put Units from Supplement and mother Codex into a single Detachment. They seem more designed to make it a 'why bother' scenario, one would sacrifice the only benefit gained from using a Supplement in the first place by trying to make a Mixed Detachment, but an action doesn't have to have a purpose to be legal.

The other side of the debate, are units purchased from or for, is far more interesting and more likely to produce a Rule preventing Mixed Detachments for good.

I don't think you understand what a supplement unit is.

If you have a Tau Firewarrior unit that does not have Ork hunters and is not tal'issera bonded is not a FE firewarrior unit.

You cannot mix units in the detachment because the rules read that way, if you have a FE detachment you must abide the restrictions on all units and you gain the benefits for all units. If you have a TE detachment you cannot select units with the FE bonuses and restrictions because of the way the FE rules read.

It is the same for all supplements.

I agree with Kel. The wording on FE's FAQ indicates that supplements detachments are different from codex detachments. If they aren't, why writing that?
I believe a FAQ is in order

They are different Detachments, no one is arguing that, the problem stems from the two questions:
From within the Rules themselves, how do we define a Detachment as either Supplement or Mother codex?
How would this definition remove permission to include Units from the same Faction in a single Detachment?

I did look into the matter in the few moments I had and only came to the conclusion it is even more Gray then I first thought... it needs a Frequently Asked Question for sure.

You, the player, makes that distinction at list building.

Where in the Book does it state the Player has permission to simply declare that a Detachment is X or Y?
Why would declaration the name of the Detachment be enough to over-turn permission to put Units from the same Faction into said Detachment?

The same place that it says you can take a necron detachment, or a tyranids detachment.

Supplements counts as its parent Faction. CADs are based upon Factions, not source material.

Nor do I see an area where I can take something known as a Necron Detachment, I do see a location where I can take something known as a Combined Arms Detachment. Then I have a requirement within the Detachment Restrictions themselves to fill it with Units of a single Faction, which Necrons could be one of. If I was then to select a Unit from a hypothetical Supplement belonging to said faction, and put it within the Vanilla Detachment, no Rules have been broken. If the Authors, in their wonderful blind-sightedness, decide this hypothetical Necron Supplement will have a Named Unit with a Stat-line only in that Supplement, but no 'Necron Supplement Detachment' Requirement, what would be the grounds to stop it being fielded along side the vanilla Necrons?

Now do you see the issue I have:
Right now the only thing preventing a big problem with this loophole are the lack of exploitable Rules, which often changes as the Edition ages.

Congratulations, you can never take anything from a supplement.

Aside from permission to select Units to populate a Detachment.

Units that can only exist in a supplement detachment.