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I've got a few iterations, some with one more WS, 0 shuriken cannons, and one less Prism.. but in the end I feel this one could be better, what do you think ?

1 Autarch 70

5 Fire Dragons Exarch Fast Shot 130
5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
3 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 435

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
3 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 435

3 Fire Prism 360

Total: 1845

Or, with more Holo:

1 Autarch 70

5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
2 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 270
1 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 145

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
3 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 435

3 Fire Prism Holo 405

Total: 1850


The idea is to go for tabling as primary objective, and objectives as secondary.

I would like to know how you would improve this list, or what opponents it could have trouble against.

Also: Spiritseer or Autarch ? I'm thinking a few more dice are a good thing as I'm unlikely to use reserves.

Sickening...Also, I hate you. For bringing this...Seriously, it's perfect and I wouldn't want to play against it with any of my 6 armies I've collected over 17 years. It would be a waste of time. Futile.

Thank you.

Fire prisms are not as effective anymore due to the revised jink rules. I would take them out of the list and sub them for stock wraithknights, which will serve as your anti tank and help draw fire from your serpents.

I would change your list to the following:

1 Autarch - Banshee mask 75

5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
3 Wave Serpent + Scatter + Holo 405

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
3 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 435

2 Wraithknights 480

= 1850

Don't hide the wraithknights, rush them up and try to assault tanks and draw antitank fire from the serpents.

This list won't make you any friends.

 allofher wrote:
Fire prisms are not as effective anymore due to the revised jink rules. I would take them out of the list and sub them for stock wraithknights, which will serve as your anti tank and help draw fire from your serpents.

I would change your list to the following:

1 Autarch - Banshee mask 75

5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
3 Wave Serpent + Scatter + Holo 405

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
3 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 435

2 Wraithknights 480

= 1850

Don't hide the wraithknights, rush them up and try to assault tanks and draw antitank fire from the serpents.

This list won't make you any friends.

I would agree with this one hundred percent.


Although, if you want to keep the straight AV12 Spam the first list was better. I just think two Wraithknights bring more to the table than Fire Prisms currently. Just charge them forward and do what needs doing. Plus, ranged S10 is so hard to come by.

Indeed, the new Jink is horrible.

Your list isn't bad... I don't own the two WK yet though.

Still, I wonder, are those two WK really better than three Fire Prisms, considering they can't deal with GEQ / MEQ / TEQ, are limited to one target each, can be tarpitted, are vulnerable to ID/ poison ?

I mean, I get 3 S9AP1 Lance shots on 3 targets, isn't that equivalent to 4 S10AP1 shots on two targets ?

And isn't the Prism better against other targets ?


The points cost for your list does not add up, it's more than 1900

morgoth wrote:
Indeed, the new Jink is horrible.

Your list isn't bad... I don't own the two WK yet though.

Still, I wonder, are those two WK really better than three Fire Prisms, considering they can't deal with GEQ / MEQ / TEQ, are limited to one target each, can be tarpitted, are vulnerable to ID/ poison ?

I mean, I get 3 S9AP1 Lance shots on 3 targets, isn't that equivalent to 4 S10AP1 shots on two targets ?

And isn't the Prism better against other targets ?


The points cost for your list does not add up, it's more than 1900

Firstly, S10 IDs T5 Multiwound Models. Vs High armor the Lances may do slightly more damage, but the Wraithknight can handle or tarpit many threats in CC and brings multiple S10 melee attacks to the table. And one shooting Tanks is so difficult I'd rather just point the Wriathknight at something and let it rip.

The only reason I'd consider the Fire Prisms in your list is because you've already saturated the board with AV12. And who is shooting at Fire Prisms when Objective Secured Wave Serpents are zipping around.


Yes, the Fire Prisms brings more varied firepower to the table and will survive fairly well because of the oversaturation of AV 12, whereas the Wraithknights bring board control and an imminent threat that must be dealt with. This in turn keeps your Wave Serpents alive at the cost of Wriathknights, instead of keeping your Fire Prisms alive at the cost of Wave Serpents at the cost of being vulnerable to ID weapons and poison at the benefit of not risking being one shot by a Metla etc.

I see your point.

Which composition would you say has the best shot at tabling the enemy ?

I'm afraid the WK lack the DPS to do so tbh, but I don't have any experience of what Distortion or S10 will bring to the table.

It is not even close, the double wraithknights are WAY better.

Anti tank: The fact that you can shoot at 3 targets is almost useless since it is rare to kill a tank in 1 shot. Since you can play the wraithknights up front you can also get side armour easier and 2 shots is more reliable than 1.5 without guide (strength 10 is better against armour < 14). Also the fact that it moves so quickly means that on turn 2 or 3 you can usually assault a tank which all but guarantees it's death, and negates any cover which may be interfere with shooting.

Not all armies have large fearless tarpits to hold them down, and if they do you can try your best to avoid them. Also the enemy will sink a lot more fire power into wraithknights while not being able to change their effectivenesss until they are fully killed. A single jink on a fire prism makes it useless.

You will want to keep your troops alive as long as possible to play for objectives, and I feel that fireprism won't be distracting enough as they are unreliable (without guide) and not in your face.

If you don't have wraithknights, 3 crimson hunters would be good (especially to make use of the Autarch). Now seeing as you probably don't have 3 crimson hunters, I would then suggest 3 units of 2 hornets. Now assuming that you don't have those, you could take 6 brightlance warwalkers in squads of 2 or 3 and swap the Autarch for a farseer to guide/presience them. Or keep with the theme and add 2 more serpents with guardians and brightlance platforms (who can sit in cover on objectives and fire pot shots).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you are underestimating the effect of 2 wraithknights in combat. The easiest way to make a unit disappear is winning a combat and catching them as they run. Templates can take ages to fully wipe out an opponent if they spread out their units, or are in cover to reduce the effectiveness

Also as Zagman mentioned, the tarpitting factor can be used in your favour as well to keep a strong opposing unit from freely roaming the table.

Without the combat potential you also don't have a way of dealing with any unit once it becomes engaged. I understand that you don't want to get into combat with gaurdians or fire dragons, but when it doesn't happen your fire prisms won't be able to help at all.

AV12 saturation means nothing... it is more about anti tank weapon saturation.. (ST 8+). Since wraithknights require the same weapons to kill as tanks, they serve the same purpose of making half of the enemies fire power ineffective.

Fire prisms are basically troop killers with the ap3 large blast but you have more than enough of that already.

Wraithknights would be a better choice.

This list is gross. Try not to overplay it or you may find yourself with nobody to play against

allofher wrote:
AV12 saturation means nothing... it is more about anti tank weapon saturation.. (ST 8+). Since wraithknights require the same weapons to kill as tanks, they serve the same purpose of making half of the enemies fire power ineffective.

Yes, and the Wraithknights apply board control which is their most important factor by far. They force your opponent to target them wherease the Fire Prisms can be ignored in favor of killing Wave Serpents.

bigcheese86 wrote:This list is gross. Try not to overplay it or you may find yourself with nobody to play against

That is the wrong attitude to bring to a thread that is clearly marked "competitive". This obviously is not meant for casual play. There are many players out there that would enjoy this kind of challenge, I for one play ~90%+ of my games in a competitive setting and wouldn't bat an eye. I fully expect to see this kind of "gross" list at a Tournament, especially at the GT level.

Your way of enjoying the game is not superior to anyone else's. That being said, its always good to discuss your expectations of a game before playing it. Don't bring a competitive list against a casual player and expect both of you to have fun, just as you don't expect to bring a casual list to a competitive setting and expect to have fun.

A friend of mine actually runs a list VERY similar to this with lots of Wave Serpents, Wraith Guards/Dire Avengers, two Wraith Knights and maybe some Crimson Hunters (he mixes it up once in a while). I have been tabled pretty bad a number of times, and he usually pops a Predator a turn with his Wraith Knights. So I agree that the Wraith Knights are the better choice. They prevent a whole lot of shenanigans against your list as well, which your Fire Prisms do not. Such as Drop-Pod armies, Scouting and Outflanking. They are perfect to counter AV 14, which is popular nowadays. Wraith Knights are a real bitch to be sure, just be sure to use cover.

However what works against this list (as a Space Marine, Raven Guard player) are Grav-Centurions (Grav chuted out of a Storm Raven) and Outflanking tacticals in Rhinos. I once played two Storm Ravens each with two units of Grav-Centurions to counter his Wraith Knights. They usually cancel each other out, but I still lose due to the Wave Serpent spam since I have no real counter.

Problem with fire prisms, is that if they are shot at with anything that makes you want to jink, then the fire prism is completely and utterly useless for a turn. They dont even have to kill it, just make you jink each turn. Wraith knights have no such problem.

Double wraith knights is REALLY hard to deal with, as they can completely support each other. And by the time your opponent has managed to kill one, the rest of your army should have wiped the threats to the second, leaving it free to stomp merrily around the board

Well... I'm sold on those WK, GW owes you some sales commission right there.

It's a tournament list, I expect grosser stuff on the other side of the board.

1 Autarch 70


5 Fire Dragons 110
5 Fire Dragons 110
2 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 270

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
4 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 540

2 Wraith Knight 480


What I'm a bit disappointed about now is that I have one less unit of Fire Dragons, and zero Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpents.

So that's 1 unit of Fire Dragons, 4 Shuriken Cannons and three Fire Prims for those two WK (and a unit of Dire Avengers), they better kick serious ass.

Then how about this:

1 Autarch 70

5 Fire Dragons 110
1 Wave Serpent Scatter + Holo 135

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 725

2 Wraith Knight 480

Traded another unit of Fire Dragons for Dire Avengers, gained 5 Shuriken Cannons.

or even...


1 Autarch 70

5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Dire Avengers 65
5 Wave Serpent Shu + Scatter + Holo 725

3 Wraith Knight 720

I'd take a Spirit Seer over the Autarch. Psychic shriek is fun.

For competitive play the last list is strongest. 3 Wraithknights is tough and great against lots of the Deathstars (particularly the Farsight bomb which is the one least hurt by the MSU spam of 7th). Also OS units are very important so the more the better.

Otherwise that last iteration looks very strong.

What I'm afraid of though, is that with the loss of so much S6/7 TL shooting I may be more vulnerable to flyers, ID, poison, ...

No point in taking a spiritseer, the change of you getting a power off is slim.

The point is more to have additional DTW dice.

Why is the chance of getting a power off slim? 2+d6 dice should almost guarantee a WC1 power off every turn. Plus it's 2 extra deny dice.

You've still got 6 Serpents so you're AA is still good. Yes Poison can hurt the Knights but you've got 3 and shoukd reliably down 7-8 Venoms a turn so poison spam isn't too much of a concern.

Ok, what about:

1. SeerStar ? I have a feeling the WK wouldn't feel too happy about being charged by one.

2. Flycrons ? Is it possible to table them / win the objectives war with this list ?

3. Mechcrons ? I remember reading about them being able to field a dozen AV13

4. GK ?

5. Mirror ? Isn't the first WK player likely to take out the enemy's WK

6. Other ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taking the comments into account, I have three new variations with WK:

1. High resilience, 3WK 5WS no meltas:

1 Spiritseer 70
5 Min DA Squad 325
5 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter + Holo 725
3 Wraith Knight 720


2. Medium resilience, 3WK 5WS 10 meltas:

1 Spiritseer 70
2 Min Fragon Squad 220
3 Min DA Squad 195
3 Wraith Knight 720
4 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 520
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120

3. Minimum resilience, 2 WK 6WS 15 meltas:

1 Spiritseer 70
3 Min Fragon Squad 330
3 Min DA Squad 195
2 Wraith Knight 480
5 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 650
1 Wave Serpent Scatter 120

1. You can avoid the council as far as combat goes and judicial use of assault could keep a WK alive for a turn or two.

2. Cronair can't grab objectives until late game you could be out of sight VP wise by then.

3. Mechcrons are based on quantum shielding penetrate with a WK then murderise with a Serpent.

4. Don't get into fights with Dreadknights.

5.Yes first turn will be important plus how you play it.

Again I'm going to stick with the first build.

Are my 10 fire dragons going to be completely useless because of the overlap with the 3 WK or is the resilience really worth it ?

Fire Dragons are very expensive suicide units. That is their issue. 110 point 1 shot unit when WKs can go all game doing damage for little more than double the cost indeed less than FD + WS...

I very much agree with FlingitNow. Though I'm aghast that he didn't suggest at least 20 Warp Spiders in your list.

As to your thoughts about problem lists:

1. Seerstar:
- Don't let them multicharge you and go after the supporting units. You have the same speed as them, so play cat and mouse till you get a chance to go all-in. Don't be afraid to turbo-boost your Serpents away from them. Remember, they have limited mobility due to the Baron and without him, they're easily tarpitted. They don't have enough attacks to easily kill a WK just like that.

2. Cronair:
Nothing to add here, except that Tesla is very good at killing tanks, but the Scythes come in piecemeal and whatever ground targets they have (like Anni barges) should fall very easily to combined firepower of your army. By turn 3, your WKs should all be able to charge something on the ground.

3. Mechcrons:
- Shouldn't be a problem. Crons in general have problems killing 1 WK, much less 3. Box them in and assault with impunity. Only thing to watch out for are Wraiths (which aren't really *good* at killing WKs, but they're decent) and MSS Lord. Shoot anything susceptible to S6/7 with your Serpents first, then once the WKs have stripped their QS, Serpents will kill a Ghost Ark easier than they kill Ravagers.

4. GK:
- They might be a problem, depending on the list, but against Eldar, they suffer from having few elite units, and Eldar specialize in mobing a unit and killing it dead, which gives them an inherent advantage against expensive units with few models.

5. Mirror matches are always tense, if the players are roughly equal in skill, but your WK is pretty safe from an enemy WK (note: Vice versa is also true). They'd need a 6 to instant kill you and first they need to hit.

6. Fast assault armies that have ways to kill WKs in combat are your biggest threat, imho. Orks might give you problems and biker marine armies certainly will.

Agreed with all but the first, seer council can easily kill a WK by drowning it in armour saves, your best defense is don't let it charge you, and if that is impossible multi charge them first, also position your WKs closest to their farseers if possible to ID their WCs.

Also WK will own a DK any day, WK is faster so gets to hit first, while the DK gets only a 5++, you also have W6 vs his W4 and he only ID you if he gets force off, which you won't let him.

So you actually suggest to charge a DK with a WK ? or two WK to be sure ?

Thanks for all the comments by the way.

Any idea on what the Spiritseer could be used for except generate DTW dice and roll on warlord traits ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If Fire Dragons aren't worth losing the Holo Fields, then what could be ?

Starting on this:

1 Spiritseer 70
5 Min DA Squad 325
3 Wraith Knight 720
5 Wave Serpent Shu Scatter 650

I get 1765 points.

I don't see what big improvement other than the Holofields I can get for the remaining 95 points, but maybe there is a better HQ option ? Swooping Hawks ? Warp Spiders ?

Also, is this list strictly better than:

SeerStar (710)
3 WK (720)
2 DA WS (420)

?

Also WK will own a DK any day, WK is faster so gets to hit first, while the DK gets only a 5++, you also have W6 vs his W4 and he only IDyou if he gets force off, which you won't let him.

Sorry but Force is a buff so guarantee you can stop it certainly with the two Warp Charge this list has.

Even ignoring that you have 4 attacks hitting on 4s wounding on 2s with a 5++ doing on average 1.67 wounds per turn.
The DK has 4 attacks hitting on 3s with rerolls and wounding 2s with a reroll and you get no save for an average 3.47 wounds per turn. At range you murder him in combat he's favourite.

 Arbiter wrote:
Agreed with all but the first, seer council can easily kill a WK by drowning it in armour saves, your best defense is don't let it charge you, and if that is impossible multi charge them first, also position your WKs closest to their farseers if possible to ID their WCs.

Assuming 8-10 Warlocks and 2 Farseers, assuming they charge AND assuming they have Prescience up (so their best case scenario that doesn't include Invisibility, which is not guaranteed and it's ludicrous talking about the effectiveness of something vs an Invisible Seer Council). they'll kill 1 WK. And then be stuck in melee with another or another 2, while the rest of the army pummels theirs. With Baron, as per usual, they won't catch ya.

 Arbiter wrote:
Also WK will own a DK any day, WK is faster so gets to hit first, while the DK gets only a 5++, you also have W6 vs his W4 and he only ID you if he gets force off, which you won't let him.

Like Flingit said, won't let him with what, precisely? His 0/2 + d6 DTW dice? Yeah, not likely, not when everything in GK army is counting on that roll to succeed. You're twice as fast (unless they shunt, but then they can't assault), so stay away from them unless you have two WKs vs 1 DK. Factoring in shooting will certainly do the trick.