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I have been told to cover as much models on the intended target. So I couldn't try to hit multiple units

For example, 3 Orc Battlewagons, I want to torrent and hit all 3 because they are nicely packed together, they argued I need to cover as much on one target that I draw LOS to and cover the template of that unit. So i am forced to cover the template over one wagon instead of touching all?

You have to cover as many models in the target unit as possible.
If the target unit only consists of 1 model, you only need to clip its base or hull, as you are then covering as many of the models in the intended target's unit.

 Ond Angel wrote:
You have to cover as many models in the target unit as possible.
If the target unit only consists of 1 model, you only need to clip its base or hull, as you are then covering as many of the models in the intended target's unit.

That's not correct anymore. Template weapons now have a specific rule for vehicles, which is you must cover as much of the vehicles hull as possible.
Torrent gives you 12" of range, but doesn't ignore the template requirements.

-Matt

Ond Angel,
Where in the Torrent Rule does it state the placement must cover as many Models in the target Unit as possible?

It's in the template rules, not Torrent.

You need to cover as many of hte models as possible in the target unit, unless the target is a vehicle, in which case you have to cover as much of the target as possible.

So if you have a Wave Serpent, next to a squad of DA, next to a Wraithknight, depending on your target depends on the placement. Against the Serpent, you must cover as much of the Serpent as possible. Against the DA, as many of the DA as possible. Against the Wraithknight, it only needs to clip the base, meaning you could (theoretically cover a bunch of the DA as well.

It's a "general" Template-rule, so it also applies to Torrent.

Kangodo wrote:
It's a "general" Template-rule, so it also applies to [template weapons with] Torrent.

(Emphasis mine)

Fixed that for you with the different colored text

DR, the very first sentence of Torrent "A weapon with this special rule is treated like any other Template weapon..."

Ergo, anything that applies to Template weapons applies to Torrent (except what Torrent specifically changes).

 DeathReaper wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
It's a "general" Template-rule, so it also applies to [template weapons with] Torrent.

(Emphasis mine)

Fixed that for you with the different colored text

And very pretty it is too. You must be pleased with it.

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, the very first sentence of Torrent "A weapon with this special rule is treated like any other Template weapon..."

Ergo, anything that applies to Template weapons applies to Torrent (except what Torrent specifically changes).

That was just a bit unclear from his post, so I cleaned it up a bit.

So was my opponent correct? I could only technically cover just one vehicle? I couldn't hit all 3 in a line by touching each one?

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
So was my opponent correct? I could only technically cover just one vehicle? I couldn't hit all 3 in a line by touching each one?

You only could cover 1 vehicle because of the rule for templates

How do you deduce that?

To OP: I am sure that with a proper Template placing you can hit what you want and satisfy the Template rules at the same time.

What does Torrent specifically change?
How the Template is placed.
Where is the Requirement to cover as many Models as possible?
In the General Template Rules for how to place the template.

If one is going to require that the default placement Rules for Template weapon be followed, stating that they are not specifically addressing the default Restrictions so those still are in play, then we have a large problem. It is entirely possible to obey the Restriction to place the Template touching the base of the firing Model when using the Torrent Special Rule. It is entirely possible to obey all the default Restrictions, and the Special Rule's instructions, but that would mean that Torrent does nothing at all as it would now behave exactly like a non-Torrent Template. That is probably why it would be very easy for us to come to an agreement that the Torrent weapon must over-write the default placement rules in some manor.

That raises the following question, given that the Rule does not specifically exactly which Requirements when it comes to placement are being over-written:
How are we to know it is limited to just the one lonely Requirement within Placement and doesn't actually have permission to be Placed using just the Torrent Special Rule?
After all, a sentence stating weapon with this special rule is treated like any other Template weapon could be informing us that a Template Weapon with this special Rule follows the default To-Hit, Wound and other non-placement related instructions found for template weapons.

Rule as Written, if you really want to get technical, is that Torrent does nothing because both Rules can be obeyed....

Naw wrote:
How do you deduce that?

To OP: I am sure that with a proper Template placing you can hit what you want and satisfy the Template rules at the same time.

Templates say they you have to cover as much of the vehicle as possible

Torrent doesn't change that

Another thing the Torrent Rule doesn't grant is permission to ignore the 'touching the base of the fire' Requirement so why does that one get a pass?

JinxDragon wrote:
Another thing the Torrent Rule doesn't grant is permission to ignore the 'touching the base of the fire' Requirement so why does that one get a pass?

Yes it does. It has a specific rule on how to place the Template, this overrides any conflicting basic rules as per Basic Vs Advanced in the front of the book.

DeathReaper,
What conflict?
As I stated prior, it is entirely possible to place the Template within the bubble created while obeying the Restriction to touch the base of the Model.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Naw wrote:
How do you deduce that?

To OP: I am sure that with a proper Template placing you can hit what you want and satisfy the Template rules at the same time.

Templates say they you have to cover as much of the vehicle as possible

Torrent doesn't change that

I am not arguing that it does. All I said that it is possible to hit more than 1 vehicle with a torrent.

Naw wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Naw wrote:
How do you deduce that?

To OP: I am sure that with a proper Template placing you can hit what you want and satisfy the Template rules at the same time.

Templates say they you have to cover as much of the vehicle as possible

Torrent doesn't change that

I am not arguing that it does. All I said that it is possible to hit more than 1 vehicle with a torrent.

Depends on the vehicle size, if the vehicle is larger then the tear drop template (which ork wagons are which is the unit in question) then no you can not.

Most of the time though the best you get is you get to let the narrow end hang off the vehicle. And since they has to be towards the firing the only situation where you can hit more then vehicle is if you had a vehicle directly in front of the one you fired at

I went and found ways around this rule that satisfies both me and my opponent, which was to be as far away as possible but close enough for me to declare the furthest truk would have been my intended target, and when placing the template i could only get the tip of the template covered, the rest still touched the other two truks. Satisfying the cover as much possible on the intended target.

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,
What conflict?
As I stated prior, it is entirely possible to place the Template within the bubble created while obeying the Restriction to touch the base of the Model.

One rule says to place the template touching the base of the firing model, the other says to place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon...

The latter over-rides the former because Torrent is more advanced about template placement.

If you still require the template to touch the base, the torrent rule becomes wasted ink...

 DeathReaper wrote:
One rule says to place the template touching the base of the firing model, the other says to place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon....

It is entirely possible to have the narrow end touch your base, and be within 12" of your base. Both rules can be fulfilled just like forcing the other placing restriction from template weapons on torrent weapons.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The latter over-rides the former because Torrent is more advanced about template placement.

It can be more advance all it wants... If you have to follow all the restrictions listed for template weapons like torrent says, then you have to follow the rules for template weapon. OR you can accept the fact that the "must cover as many models as possible" part is the same sentence as the "must start at the base" part and is over ridden by the templates placing restrictions too.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you still require the template to touch the base, the torrent rule becomes wasted ink...

Thats kinda the point of an argument ad absurdum.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It is entirely possible to have the narrow end touch your base, and be within 12" of your base. Both rules can be fulfilled just like forcing the other placing restriction from template weapons on torrent weapons.

It is fact that if the narrow end is touching your base it will be within 12 inches because it is in contact with the base.

If it still required you to touch the base, the torrent rule is wasted ink.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It can be more advance all it wants... If you have to follow all the restrictions listed for template weapons like torrent says, then you have to follow the rules for template weapon. OR you can accept the fact that the "must cover as many models as possible" part is the same sentence as the "must start at the base" part and is over ridden by the templates placing restrictions too.

The touch the base is overwritten because we have new and advanced rules that tell us how far from the base the template can be, but nothing that contradicts the cover as many as possible rules, so those are still in place.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It is entirely possible to have the narrow end touch your base, and be within 12" of your base. Both rules can be fulfilled just like forcing the other placing restriction from template weapons on torrent weapons.

It is fact that if the narrow end is touching your base it will be within 12 inches because it is in contact with the base.

If it still required you to touch the base, the torrent rule is wasted ink.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It can be more advance all it wants... If you have to follow all the restrictions listed for template weapons like torrent says, then you have to follow the rules for template weapon. OR you can accept the fact that the "must cover as many models as possible" part is the same sentence as the "must start at the base" part and is over ridden by the templates placing restrictions too.

The touch the base is overwritten because we have new and advanced rules that tell us how far from the base the template can be, but nothing that contradicts the cover as many as possible rules, so those are still in place.

They are the same sentence, not separate rules.... you dont just include/disclude sentence fragments at your whim. Either both apply, or neither.

Same sentence does not matter.

The placement rules over-ride the part of the sentence about placement, but is silent about needing or not needing to cover as many models as possible.

Just because it is the same sentence means nothing.

The whole sentence is providing instructions on how to place the Template legally, so how can it be stated that the second part of the sentence is somehow not over-written by more advanced Rules when it comes to placing a Torrent but the first part can be?
Either all previous Restrictions need to be obeyed or it is alternative placement Rules and all previous Restrictions can be ignored.
Those are the only two choices because the Torrent Rule does not state which Restrictions are to be ignored by name.

Because the first part is a direct conflict between the regular rules and torrent rules.

and torrent says "A weapon with this special rule is treated like any other Template weapon, but when firing it in the Shooting phase, place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the wide end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end."

So we know that a weapon with Torrent is treated like any other Template weapon, but how far you are able to place the template has different rules since you do not have to be touching the base of the firing model.

There is no 'direct conflict' though, both can be followed but it would just make Torrent pointless.
I'm still just puzzled how some instructions how we legally place the Template are 'placement' while somehow other instructions also related to the legal placement of Templates are somehow... not?

JinxDragon wrote:
There is no 'direct conflict' though, both can be followed but it would just make Torrent pointless.
I'm still just puzzled how some instructions how we legally place the Template are 'placement' while somehow other instructions also related to the legal placement of Templates are somehow... not?

It is a conflict.

One says base contact, the other says within 12 inches.

If you are three inches away,as the torrent rules tell you that is legal, breaks the basic template rules, but that is okay as Torrent is an advanced rule ans trumps the base contact requirement of the basic template rules.