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I've been having a really hard time against the MS.

I have been recently reading 7th edition, and looking at the Challenges section, I see that it no longer says that these characters are considered to be only in base contact with themselves. Still in base contact, but not necessarily alone. Because MS have to be allocated randomly, would you say that as long as I have another model in base contact the MS could be allocated to him instead of my character in the challenge? It says in the challenge section that "when allocating wounds caused by eithe rof these two models, they much be allocated to their opponent first". I assume this means that even if i get the MS on a different model, he still has to hit my character in the challenge?

What do you guys think?

I'd also like some advice on fighting MS if possible. I play mostly melee armies and they just get hammered by MS.

Thanks for your input!

It is the opposite actually, since the model itself is performing the attacks, and not the characters in the challege, it will apply wounds to the unit, with the character last. That and the fact that wounds overflow into challenges now gave a slight advantage against ms. If you can, try to meet the group with a squad with two characters, 1 to meet the challenge, the other to help the squad clean out the other squad so you can kill the enemy character

Thanks, I appreciate it

Watch your placement is the key in this game. If both characters end up in base contact you are probably going to end up loosing the squad. Melee combat has become far more complex then charge and win. Which models you move in which order can make the difference between a quick win and a total loss.

MS and challenges happen at the same time. The player who's turn it is dictates the order.

If it's your turn, and when you charge no one manages to reach base contact with the MS bastard, you can safely declare that it happens before the challenge and then ignore it for that turn. Otherwise it's all about placement and who's turn it is.

Best way?

Shoot the bearer down.

As a Ork and CSM player it really is one of the most frustrating things to play against, and personally its one of those items that is OP and broken imo.

*Awaits rage with popcorn*

The only way I have found to combat it is by shooting it (reinforcing that 7th is a shooty edition still) with either a volume of fire or quite a few heavy weapons.

The problem with model placement is that it usually is very hard to avoid when the bearer is always at the front, and you have to charge full distance until you either come into base contact with the charging/charged unit. Then you have pile in forcing you to move closer towards the enemy unit in turn forcing to move closer to the bearer.

Sorry to say but there is no easy way around it, apart from shooting them down imo.

As a SM player I it can be rather frustrating to have your character punch himself in the face, my favorite though? When the Ld test is passed with my Burning Blade Chapter Master and I slice the Necron character into little metal chunks and then they fail their Blind test.

I was JUST having this discussion about this very thing over here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605103.page

To summarize here though, MSS are usually played incorrectly, and this gives the impression that they're OP, when really they're not all that great.

1) As stated, try to pick them out. This is not easy to do on an Overlord in a unit with a 2+ or 3i save. LoS, while better than a normal unit, is once again restricted to 6", so if you have the firepower you can even single him out. Court Lords only have 1 Wound and LoS on a 4+, so they're significantly easier to pick out. Be aware though, that some Necron players will place the downed model directly in the path if they make their RP roll, there isn't much you can do about this, which is why this is a risky maneuver.

2) In the Movement phase, try to position your models so that the closest model in the unit you intend to assault with so that the closest 1-2 models are not in line with the MSS model. While difficult, you can actually move your models to block other models from making base contact with the MSS model on the charge. If there are no models in base contact, then there are no models eligible to be hit by MSS (More on this in a bit). Some clever Necron players will think they're being smart by placing the unit in a wedge formation, making it difficult for you to charge anything but the MSS. If this is the case, refer to Tip 1, since he has just made it easier for you to single him out.

3) If you can't avoid making base contact with the MSS, then put as many average joes in base contact with him as possible. It's random who the MSS targets, and if it's some guy with a combat knife instead of the Power weapon, then you're good to go.

4) Challenges (a). As juraigamer pointed out. MSS and Challenges occur at the same time. On pg. 17 under 'Sequencing' you'll find the rule on how to deal with this. AS the controlling player, on the turn you charge, Always, always, ALWAYS, ask your opponent if he has MSS, then inform him that he MUST use them first, even if there is nothing in base contact with the MSS. You're being a good sport, and following the rules by allowing him the opportunity during your turn to use his piece of kit. If he says something like 'no Im going to wait until challenges', then show him pg. 17 and move on to challenges. When it happens against me, I just assume that the MSS doesn't work on the turn I get charged. It saves the debate, and speeds the game along. Not all Necron players are this honest, so don't trust em.

5) Challenges (b). This is easier to pull off if you have large units, and is a decent tactic to use in some situations regardless of MSS. Models that aren't 'engaged' can't accept or issue challenges. So if the MSS is far away, or more than likely you hang your Champ/Char in the back of the charge you can bypass the challenges. They still happen, there are just no models eligible to use the rules. The trick is placing them somewhere where they will become 'engaged' when they pile-in.

* After all that, all you need to do is wipe the unit on the turn you charge. There is a myth that Necrons suck in CC, so don't think you're going to steam roll them by throwing any assault unit in there, you need to actually hit them hard. They are LD10, so you need to WIN combat by 3 to put him on his toes. Even Warriors are WS4/S4/T4. I2 doesn't make any difference if you can't down them before he gets to swing back. I can't tell you the number of times my opponent has smiled when he downs 3-5 Warriors, and then acts as if the remaining 12-16 aren't going to close that gap, and the odd Warscythe pushes me into a win. If Necrons lose combat by 1 or 2, then we're doing just fine. If you don't get them to break, after all of these tips, then you deserve to deal with MSS in the following rounds.

6) If you are forced into multiple rounds with MSS, then try at every chance you get, to get as many models in base contact with the MSS, even if in a challenge. The Necron player will be doing what he can to keep your guys out, but you get to pile-in first on your turn, so don't forget that.

That said, MSS are still fantastic! I pretty much only limit them to units I intend to be assaulting with, like Phaerons, DLords, or Royal Courts kit'd out for CC. With all of these ways to get around them, they're too pricey for me to be used defensively, since each one would get me 1 more Warrior.

You can also play with Glorious Intervention in your turn, something that at least I don't see as much in my LGS, and whenever y pull it to replace an ongoing challenge between my chaos lord and an overlord it infuriates the necrons. Swapping a chaos lord for a weaponless champion helps a lot to reduce the dmg of the MSS if you fail to finish them in turn 1. Some overlord can be pretty tough with their 3++

 Lord Yayula wrote:
You can also play with Glorious Intervention in your turn, something that at least I don't see as much in my LGS, and whenever y pull it to replace an ongoing challenge between my chaos lord and an overlord it infuriates the necrons. Swapping a chaos lord for a weaponless champion helps a lot to reduce the dmg of the MSS if you fail to finish them in turn 1. Some overlord can be pretty tough with their 3++

Yeah, I've had this happen in games where I've charged. It would work if the combat went to the 3rd round if you charged though.

Mindshackle Scarabs are a "Charge Deterrent", and a damned effective one at that. Best way to fight them is to let them (the shackles) work and just don't charge the unit.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs are a "Charge Deterrent", and a damned effective one at that. Best way to fight them is to let them (the shackles) work and just don't charge the unit.

Best charge deterrent is combined arms overlords with 4 seismic crucibles backing a very shooty unit.

-4d3 to your charge range.

 Akar wrote:
4) Challenges (a). As juraigamer pointed out. MSS and Challenges occur at the same time. On pg. 17 under 'Sequencing' you'll find the rule on how to deal with this. AS the controlling player, on the turn you charge, Always, always, ALWAYS, ask your opponent if he has MSS, then inform him that he MUST use them first, even if there is nothing in base contact with the MSS. You're being a good sport, and following the rules by allowing him the opportunity during your turn to use his piece of kit. If he says something like 'no Im going to wait until challenges', then show him pg. 17 and move on to challenges. When it happens against me, I just assume that the MSS doesn't work on the turn I get charged. It saves the debate, and speeds the game along. Not all Necron players are this honest, so don't trust em.

I must admit this is the first time I have heard of this. Do most play it this way or know of this? If it works, I'll be happy to pull it off on my friend. To date, I have never passed a single MSS roll.

Yes, most people play it this way, as that rule (controlling player chooses) has been in since 6th.

 Akar wrote:
Models that aren't 'engaged' can't accept or issue challenges. So if the MSS is far away, or more than likely you hang your Champ/Char in the back of the charge you can bypass the challenges. They still happen, there are just no models eligible to use the rules. The trick is placing them somewhere where they will become 'engaged' when they pile-in.

This is the part i was fully unaware of... Haven't played my Necron friend since 7th, but when his lord at the very back of his unit challenged my leader, at the very back of mine and perfomed the challenge and MSS, it was indeed quite infuriating.

Although my warlords (and Superiors) have quite occasionally rolled triple 1 for MSS. And that is always A LOT of fun =P

That rule was in for the whole of 6th as well. IF you are nto engaged before I10, you cannot offer or accept any challenges.

Food for though then, and quite a bit of but hurt about it then, i will pay closer attention to the important details of Charge range and pile-ins.

I've used that rule for ages now - I love powerfist champion bezerker models, but against anything in a challenge they often die before they swing. SO he hangs out at the right point to avoid a challenge, but able to pile in and fight more often than not.

lol nice!

I need to learn these new methods because sacrificing the Veteran no longer works with wound overspills...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just to be clear, this method only works with the right charge range?

If the entirety of your squad is between 2" and 5" away but you roll a double 6, all of them will be in b2b, or at least engaged?

Wow, glad to see that some people have had this brought to their attention, and probably a lil hate from Cron players.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If the entirety of your squad is between 2" and 5" away but you roll a double 6, all of them will be in b2b, or at least engaged?

Pretty much. It's difficult to pull off with smaller squads because you have to try to get as many models in base, then engage if possible. Add in the random charge distances, and keeping that champion unengaged is pretty hard. If you find that you can't do it, then try to assault your opponent in a way that keeps his champ unengaged.

With larger units, it becomes more manageable. The problem with the larger units, is that it's entirely possible to kill everything that will prevent lower initiative things, like Power Fists, from engaging on the pile in. Especially, since the opponent gets to choose which models in base contact die first. Rarely an issue, because if your unit is doing that much Dmg, you won't need to rely on the Pfists to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sonicaucie wrote:
Best charge deterrent is combined arms overlords with 4 seismic crucibles backing a very shooty unit.

-4d3 to your charge range.

Most you'll ever have in a Battle Forged list is 2. Royal Courts can't join units in other CADs anymore (FAQ)

The FAQ actually only clarifies that you get 1 rc per overlord per detachment. Not that they must remain in the detachment.

Otherwise someone might argue you get an rc in every detachment everytime you purchase an overlord... pre faq

sonicaucie wrote:
The FAQ actually only clarifies that you get 1 rc per overlord per detachment. Not that they must remain in the detachment.

I stand corrected!

In an unrelated note, if anyone sees a news report about a gamer getting clubbed to death with my Whiffle Bat, then just know that I will deny it.

 milkboy wrote:

 Akar wrote:
4) Challenges (a). As juraigamer pointed out. MSS and Challenges occur at the same time. On pg. 17 under 'Sequencing' you'll find the rule on how to deal with this. AS the controlling player, on the turn you charge, Always, always, ALWAYS, ask your opponent if he has MSS, then inform him that he MUST use them first, even if there is nothing in base contact with the MSS. You're being a good sport, and following the rules by allowing him the opportunity during your turn to use his piece of kit. If he says something like 'no Im going to wait until challenges', then show him pg. 17 and move on to challenges. When it happens against me, I just assume that the MSS doesn't work on the turn I get charged. It saves the debate, and speeds the game along. Not all Necron players are this honest, so don't trust em.

I must admit this is the first time I have heard of this. Do most play it this way or know of this? If it works, I'll be happy to pull it off on my friend. To date, I have never passed a single MSS roll.

So just clarifying to get it understood..

-So you/opponent charges first.

-You/Opponent then must declare MSS after the charge but before challenges start.

-If opponent tries to pull off MSS during challenges, then this is incorrect and MSS does not take place at all that phase?

If this is how it goes then this could be the best news to me, I've heard all day

EDIT: Just wondering but MSS can only choose models in base contact with the bearer right?

Challenges and MSS happen at the same time. The player who's turn it is get to choose order. If you are charging a unit with MSS it is in your best interest to have that happen before the challenge. If you are charging with MSS it is best to have challenges happen first as that increases the chances to get into base contact with at least one better powered model.

If it is your (non-Necron player) turn, you can do the following:

- You charge first.
- You and your opponent figure out together that both MSS and challenges needs to be done.
- You tell your opponent it's time to resolve MSS first.
- You tell your opponent it's time for challenges second.


If it is the Necron players turn, he/she will probably do the following:

- He charges first.
- You and your opponent figure out together that both MSS and challenges needs to be done.
- He tells you it's time for challenges first.
- He tells you it's time for MSS second.

That is quite the bit of shenanigans to avoid a legit piece of wargear.

Honestly with the simple you cant hide in challenges thing anymore, try to have some kind near blank character within the unit to chump the MSS, then whale on him with the rest of your CC buddies.

Otherwise the whole Simultaneous Challenge/MSS thing is a basic thing from last edition which does work.

 Thokt wrote:
That is quite the bit of shenanigans to avoid a legit piece of wargear.

There's not a lot of strategy in 40k, but this is some of it.

 Thokt wrote:
That is quite the bit of shenanigans to avoid a legit piece of wargear.

As a few players here pointed out, they were unaware of a rule that has been in place since challenges were introduced. Several years later, it's the shenaniganz that have caused threads like this to pop up from time to time. The end result being an irrational fear of dealing with them, when they've actually been dealing with players abusing their opponents lack of knowledge.

The Shenanigans really get interesting, when the Lord in base contact refuses a challenge preventing him from swinging, and the MSS still go off.

 Thokt wrote:
That is quite the bit of shenanigans to avoid a legit piece of wargear.

And that piece of wargear would be complete nonsense if it always activated at the best possible time.