Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This happened in a tournament, where my opponent killed my bastion. I gave him the benefit of the doubt (and thus First Blood). However, I am wondering whether we played it right or not.

Anyways, to re-iterate my question, does a claimed Bastion give up a VP and potentially First Blood if killed?

Thanks.

The short answer is it does not give out a Victory Point because of the following:
Do not include any Citadel scenery models when awarding Victory Points...
- Victory Conditions, Terrain & Victory Conditions

Honestly, I do wonder why Buildings and Gun Emplacements are not given their own entry under Vehicles.

I dont know if i would classify a purchased building as a citadel scenery model.

I would classify it as a fortification model purchased in a CAD.

If the building can claim objectives, it can thusly be destroyed for a kill point.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I dont know if i would classify a purchased building as a citadel scenery model.

Citadel Scenery models.

you misunderstand me ghaz.

Its a scenery model if you place it on the table as terrain before the game starts.

Once you purchase it for your army in the fortification slot it however is not.

This is however, just how i play it.

Eihnlazer,
Pity that the Rules state the following after they get through describing Citadel Scenery:
Some pieces of scenery are called fortifications. These can be included in a player’s army or used as pieces of ‘neutral’ scenery controlled by neither side.
- Fortifications, The Battlefield, Preparing for Battle.

Not going to disagree that we should create a few House Rules for the situation, the whole how I would play it angle, but it isn't as clear cut because there are some situations which are broken no matter what we put into play.

 Ghaz wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
I dont know if i would classify a purchased building as a citadel scenery model.

Citadel Scenery models.

Are you somehow implying that GW's retail website using Warhammer 40,000 Scenery as a section heading is somehow a rule that proves what role a hunk of plastic plays during a game?

Herping my derp nvm

 Kriswall wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
I dont know if i would classify a purchased building as a citadel scenery model.

Citadel Scenery models.

Are you somehow implying that GW's retail website using Warhammer 40,000 Scenery as a section heading is somehow a rule that proves what role a hunk of plastic plays during a game?

You mean just like they separate models from Codex Tau Empire in the Tau Empire section or the models from Codex Necrons in the Necrons section? They're in the Citadel Scenery section because that's what the rulebook defines them as ('Terrain Types', very first sentence).

P15 of Stronghold Assault

Unless you and your opponent decide otherwise, do not include fortifications for the purposes of awarding Victory Points or determining when an opposing side is 'wiped out'.

While that seems to answer one part of the question, still referring to p15 it could be easily inferred that the fortification is still a unit of your army and so gives up first blood.

Further quotes of P15;

In many respects, these buildings function like any other unit in a player's army;...

At the start of the game. all fortifications that are buildings that were bought as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player,...

A claimed building is part of the controlling player's side...

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC,
Can-not trumps Can.
Therefore it doesn't matter that Enemy Units award Victory Points by default, this particular one has a more specific Restriction stating it does not.

Besides, have you reasonably thought through what you are stating?
Given that the First Blood and other Victory Points trigger off the removal of an 'Enemy Unit' as Casualties, there is only one type of Scenery that is capable of achieving this: Claimed Buildings. Not only are Claimed Buildings the only Scenery Pieces which can rightfully call themselves 'Units,' but all the other Scenery Pieces do not have access to Rules allowing them to be Removed as Casualties in the first place. Should simply being part of the Enemies Army be enough to over-turn the Restriction on Scenery Pieces awarding Victory Points, and given that Claimed Buildings become part of the Army when embarked or deployed, this conclusion creates a Restriction that will never be applied... which can't be correct.

The fun part with claiming fortifications give up first blood because they are no longer scenery would also lead to, never being tabled by simply buying a ADL or a skyshield.

RAW claimed buildings do not give up first blood.

under terrain types we see all citadel scenery models have a terrain type.

types in order: open ground, buildings, difficult terrain, etc.

Buildings are citadel scenery models.

If you want to house rule it so fortifications give up first blood, then at least be consistent and let them count towards units on the battlefield.

Question, though.

Would destroying a Claimed building (as the first thing destroyed) completely negate First Blood?

It does not count for VP purposes, however, anything after it, is not the first unit completely destroyed (a similar issue came up in a Tau game, where vehicle drones were the first to be killed off, it was agreed that nobody would be able to claim FB).

 AndrewC wrote:
P15 of Stronghold Assault

Unless you and your opponent decide otherwise, do not include fortifications for the purposes of awarding Victory Points or determining when an opposing side is 'wiped out'.

While that seems to answer one part of the question, still referring to p15 it could be easily inferred that the fortification is still a unit of your army and so gives up first blood.

Further quotes of P15;

In many respects, these buildings function like any other unit in a player's army;...

At the start of the game. all fortifications that are buildings that were bought as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player,...

A claimed building is part of the controlling player's side...

Cheers

Andrew

6th edition rules written for 6th edition. We are now playing 7th edition. Why would these rules not be in the 7th edition codex? If they are not, and IF Stronghold Assault is being used, then I guess we have to go by what was quoted then.

 Happyjew wrote:
Question, though.

Would destroying a Claimed building (as the first thing destroyed) completely negate First Blood?

It does not count for VP purposes, however, anything after it, is not the first unit completely destroyed (a similar issue came up in a Tau game, where vehicle drones were the first to be killed off, it was agreed that nobody would be able to claim FB).

yep, it would negate it.

It's more of a tactics question though than a rules question. If you're going for first blood, why shoot something that does not give you the VP's for first blood.

Or you can shoot the building as it's the only thing you can potentially destroy and deny your opponent the opportunity for FB.

Davor and AndrewC,
One of the things I forgot to point out is Errata on page 15 of Stronghold Exists:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Stronghold_Assault_v1.0_May14.pdf

Simple because the Rules that where covered on these pages have been replaced completely by the 7th Edition Rulebook.

Jinx, I think you may have miss read my post, I pointed out that fortifications do not give victory points. Reading your post, I'm not sure that you saw that.

However I now see the confusion that I have based on the terms of victory points. I assumed that VPs under discussion was on the destruction of the unit as opposed to the awarding of VPs for obtaining a battlefield condition. Of course this is a holdover from previous editions and not the present one. Please excuse a muddled old mind.

Cheers

Andrew

Did your post not state that it was easily inferred that the Fortification still gives out First Blood?

Yes, for which I elaborated above to say that I had been confused by earlier editions in which VPs were awarded separately for both the destruction of a unit and for fulfilling battlefield conditions.

A distinction that no longer exists in the last few editions. So my original post was wrong.

Cheers

Andrew.

PS I just spotted that the bolding of 'I have' only bolded I. Now edited.

Here is the problem....

There is a rule stating you should not count scenery models when awarding VPs.

There is a rule that even an unoccupied claimed building can control an objective. (and thus give VPs)

Even if there was a conflict, technically the Victory Point is being granted by the Objective regardless of what is controlling it, the Rule stating Claimed Buildings control an Objective would be more specific. Should that Restriction count against "Scoring" Objectives, and not just awarding Victory Points, it would still be a 'General Restriction' against all Scenery Models. Given the Rule's subject is Claimed Buildings, a sub-set of a sub-set of Scenery Models, it would over-turn said Restriction based on the whole Advanced vs Basic section of the Rulebook.

Makes them pretty powerful, they can award you vp via controlling, buy not your opponent for any reason...