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Any time a unit with a grenade pack enters play by Deep Strike
and does not suffer a Deep Strike mishap, nominate one model
in the unit immediately after it arrives. That model can make a
single special shooting attack in the Movement phase with the
profile below - this represents the unit’s grenade pack attack.
A unit that fires grenade packs in the Movement phase can
still shoot in the subsequent Shooting phase; however, it must
target the same target unit if possible.

"if possible"

Deep Strike within 24" of target one or out of sight, target unit one.

If target is not out of sight, battle focus out of range.

Proceed to shoot secondary target.

Is it correct that RAW, the Swooping Hawks can always shoot at two targets ?

The "if possible" is indeed in case you no longer have to option to target that Unit:
- It is out of range
- It is out of LoS
- It has died (because the Grenade pack killed it)

If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

if it mattered at the start of the shooting phase if it was possible to shoot at an enemy unit then, you wouldn't be able to battle focus closer to a unit and fire at it because it wasn't possible to shoot them at the start.

You select the hawks to run, then with battle focus select the hawks to shoot, then check range, the unit fired upon with the grenade pack is out of range so it is no longer possible to shoot at, proceed to fire at a different unit in range.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

if it mattered at the start of the shooting phase if it was possible to shoot at an enemy unit then, you wouldn't be able to battle focus closer to a unit and fire at it because it wasn't possible to shoot them at the start.

You select the hawks to run, then with battle focus select the hawks to shoot, then check range, the unit fired upon with the grenade pack is out of range so it is no longer possible to shoot at, proceed to fire at a different unit in range.

In order to legally target a second unit it must be impossible for the first unit to be targeted during the shooting phase. If the hawks start the shooting phase within range and LoS of the first unit this is never going to be the case.

Deliberately moving away doesn't change this. The grenade pack rules are mandatory. Using battle focus isn't.

What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

"If possible" is either mandatory to use BF or destroys your own argument.

I would think they would be allowed to run out of range using Battle Focus and fire at a second target. it says you must target the same unit if possible, but you don't check range and line of sight for possible targeting until the unit is declared to be shooting. With battle focus, that declaration would not come until after the run move is complete, but before you declare a shoot or run action with a different unit.

 Quanar wrote:
But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

When did I say BF'ing away wasn't allowed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
What if you land exactly 24" away, in full LoS, but kill the nearest few with the grenade pack? Would you be forced to Battle Focus towards the enemy in order to shoot it Tonberry?

I don't think so because battle focus is optional and there is no mandatory requirement to use it.

"If possible" is either mandatory to use BF or destroys your own argument.

Not really. If you start the shooting phase in range and LoS of the first unit, it is undeniably possible to target them during the shooting phase. The condition within the grenade pack rule has been met and therefore you can't legally target a second unit.

BF is optional and if you do use it you can move whichever way you want. If you aren't within range at the start of the shooting phase and don't move within range using BF it is not possible to target the first unit during the shooting phase. Therefore the condition within the grenade pack rule is not met and you can target a second unit if this is an option.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
But if you did use it, you would have to go towards the unit? If BF'ing away when you are in range isn't allowed because you could be shooting the first unit, surely BF'ing away when you could be moving towards the unit to shoot is also not allowed?

What about being forced to deep strike closer than you want to be in order to ensure you don't kill too many and make it impossible to shoot the unit?

When did I say BF'ing away wasn't allowed?

 Tonberry7 wrote:
If it is possible for them to shoot at the first unit in the shooting phase then the RAW dictate that they have to do so in preference to targeting a second unit.

If they are still in range of the first unit and have LoS at the start of the shooting phase it therefore remains possible for the first unit be targeted during the shooting phase.

By moving out of range using battle focus this does not change the fact that the first unit could have been targeted and shot at during the shooting phase.

I don't think you could then therefore nominate the second unit as a target as you would be breaking the grenade pack rules.

Unless you're saying you can BF away but then wouldn't be able to shoot at all...

Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

I disagree with your statement. When it's time to shoot it isn't possible to shoot your grenade pack target. Agree or disagree?

It's important to note that the rule doesn't ask if it's possible to target the same unit at the START of the shooting phase, it just says it must target the same unit if possible. When it comes time to select a target, if you've used Battle Focus to move out of LOS, it's no longer possible. Feel free to select a secondary target.

This is actually a very sound tactic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this scenario?

Swooping Hawks drop in and throw the grenade pack at target A. Subsequently, in the movement phase, a couple of allied Land Raiders move forward and block LOS. At the start of the shooting phase, Battle Focus won't let you move around the Land Raiders to get LOS. Are you able to shoot a secondary target?

Of course you are. When it comes time to choose a target, target A isn't a possible choice. It doesn't matter which movement caused it to be impossible, just that it's impossible.

It would seem that per Tonberry's logic, had you not moved the Land Raider, it would have been a legal target, so it was POSSIBLE. No secondary targets.

So Tonberry what about these example?

I use the grenade pack and kill enough models that the enemy unit (A) is 25 inches away and in LoS but there is a different unit (B) 25 inches away in the opposite direction of unit A. Can i battle focus towards unit B to fire at them even though it would be "possible" to battle focus towards unit A and shoot at them.

What about if i deep struck behind LoS blocking terrain? Can i not shoot at all because it would have been "possible" to deep strike on the other side so that i could shoot at unit A.

Edit: should have read Kriswall's post but we have the same point.

+1 on on the "if possible" after the battle focus move. Battle focus away/out of LoS and then check to see if it is possible to shoot. I don't see a conflict there unless you are deliberately looking for a way to manufacture one. Even then it becomes codex vs codex, controlling player decides the order of operations.

The "if possible" being used to say you need to move at them is absurd. Even if you killed an entire unit with it, it was still "possible" that some might have passed their saves and so you would have had to shoot the unit again anyway. Nonsense.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes, if you BF out of range of the first unit without shooting them first you then couldn't shoot anyone.

I disagree with your statement. When it's time to shoot it isn't possible to shoot your grenade pack target. Agree or disagree?

Yes at that time however it was possible to target the grenade pack unit before making an optional move away.

 Kriswall wrote:
It's important to note that the rule doesn't ask if it's possible to target the same unit at the START of the shooting phase, it just says it must target the same unit if possible. When it comes time to select a target, if you've used Battle Focus to move out of LOS, it's no longer possible. Feel free to select a secondary target.

This is actually a very sound tactic.

Ok. If at the start of the shooting phase the first unit is in range and in LoS, is it possible to target them? The answer is yes. RAW they must target them if shooting in the shooting phase.

 Kriswall wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about this scenario?

Swooping Hawks drop in and throw the grenade pack at target A. Subsequently, in the movement phase, a couple of allied Land Raiders move forward and block LOS. At the start of the shooting phase, Battle Focus won't let you move around the Land Raiders to get LOS. Are you able to shoot a secondary target?

Of course you are. When it comes time to choose a target, target A isn't a possible choice. It doesn't matter which movement caused it to be impossible, just that it's impossible.

It would seem that per Tonberry's logic, had you not moved the Land Raider, it would have been a legal target, so it was POSSIBLE. No secondary targets.

It certainly does matter which movement caused target A to be not an option because in your scenario the LR and hawks are moving in different phases. If the LR move in and block LoS during the movement phase that's fine, pick a secondary target, but BF takes place in the shooting phase and so it is still possible to target the first unit before they BF away.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Yes at that time however it was possible to target the grenade pack unit before making an optional move away.

Relevancy?

Ok. If at the start of the shooting phase the first unit is in range and in LoS, is it possible to target them? The answer is yes. RAW they must target them if shooting in the shooting phase.

Citation required. If they're in range at the start of the shooting phase and another unit fires and wipes them out, are they Hawks now just required to sit there?
Cite something, anything, that says "at the start of the shooting phase".

It certainly does matter which movement caused target A to be not an option because in your scenario the LR and hawks are moving in different phases. If the LR move in and block LoS during the movement phase that's fine, pick a secondary target, but BF takes place in the shooting phase and so it is still possible to target the first unit before they BF away.

Cite evidence to prove your point please. All you're doing is asserting "start of the phase is all that matters" without supporting it with rules. The actual rules never say that.

I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

If you mean read ur post as such, that is irrelavent. If you mean read the rule that way, you can't change the rule to how you want it to read just to prove your point.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine (and most everyone else who posted) had it right near the beginning. Lets break it down...

The grenade pack says to target the target if able. Battle focus says to take two actions during shooting phase (one run, one shoot, any order). Shooting phase says nothing about targeting until after you've selected a unit to shoot that phase (see The Shooting Sequence, BRB). You do not/cannot target anything until that unit is selected to shoot, and you dont select the unit to shoot when you elect to run, the shooting sequence is ignored when you run ("In their shooting phase, units may choose to Run rather than firing.", BRB). There is no rule or contingent that checks who is in range of anything in the shooting phase until a unit is selected to shoot in the shooting sequence, which is ignored when you elect to run. With BF, if you elect to run first, no targets are checked until after the unit runs, and is already nominated to shoot in the first step of the second action's shooting sequence. Until this point no targeting has been done, no ranges checked, no eligible targets discovered.

If you believe otherwise, by all means enlighten us with a rule citation.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

As others have pointed out, the resolution is quite simple.

The rule is "however, it must target the same target unit if possible."

This places a restriction upon Phase 2:Choose a target.

When you reach Phase 2 of the shooting sequence, you are restricted to "must target the same target".

If any other events taking place before hand (another Unit moving, BF away with your own, etc), then the " if possible" clause might have to be taken into account and select another target.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I believe the start of the shooting phase is part of the shooting phase. If this is an issue for you then please just read it as once the shooting phase has started or the part of the shooting phase before you BF.

Please quote the rule that includes the word "start" at any point.
Your entire argument literally requires that rule exist. As far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Ball is in your court - time to actually prove your point.

Actually, it's not. Read the thread. If the first unit is in range and LoS in the shooting phase it is possible to target them. RAW dictate that they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.

You'll notice I've not used the word "start" anywhere as it seems to be what you're hinging your argument on.

Yes, they must be targeted in preference to a secondary unit.
When it comes time to declare a target, the primary unit isn't eligible. According to you, this makes the Hawks unable to fire.
You've still cited no rules explaining why.
I also underlined two times you mentioned that "start" is in the rules.

I deliberately stopped using the word "start" as it was clearly causing you distress.
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.
You've still not proven how the hawks are able to ignore this requirement.

Except that when they declare targets, it is not possible to target them. You're putting the restriction on the unit as soon as the shooting phase starts, with zero rules support. Please, cite a rule that puts the restriction on the unit before Battle Focus is resolved. I'd love to see an actual rules quote from you - for once.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I've demonstrated that if the first unit is in range and LoS then it is possible to target them.
RAW require that if this is possible any shooting attack must target this first unit in preference to a second unit, which you have conceded.

This is correct.

Stating that you cannot Battle-Focus first and move out of range before shooting is not.

The only restriction on the Hawks rule has to do with targeting.

Does the unit target when it uses Battle Focus?

Tonberry7 , there is nothing about checking range or line of sight for target selection until after a unit has been declared to be shooting. You don't check at any other time during the shooting phase.

by your logic it would also be illegal to have a friendly vehicle move flat out in the shooting phase to block line of sight to the first unit and then fire at a second, and there are zero rules to support this.