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So after reading and testing a few things in IA13 one thing that stood out to me was the relic 'Death of Kasyr Lutein'.

You can give it to any chaos vehicle and what it does is for every friendly psyker within 12 using malefic spells they are allowed to reroll 1 dice for every HP the vehicle has. If the spell fails the vehicle takes a penetrating hit.

Now this doesn't sound too great until you realise its only 15/25 points on a vehicle/superheavy but it really shines on something like a Typhon where every psyker is able to reroll 6 dice ...this is like giving every psyker a spell familar. It also lets you keep the passed dice and only reroll the failed, massively increasing the chance to cast spells. A penetrating hit is also not the end of the world on a superheavy with lots of HP..you won't be failing often anyway.

I'm not sure how to work out the odds for success but in practise games it has really helped my psykers get the WC3 powers off, especially for my daemon allies.

Any thoughts?

If that's how it works, why not take a fellblade? Far more hps!
Definitely works on every psyker, not just 1?

If I understand correctly, its not 1 dice per psyker per hullpoint, its one dice per all psykers per hullpoint.

So with 6 HP, you need to split the 6 rerolls between the psykers.

Still not BAD mind you, but not as godly broken.

It says :

"When psychic tests to use malific daemonology powers are made by friendly psykers within 12" of the vehicle, one d6 may be re-rolled for every hull point the vehicle has remaining (each may only be re-rolled once, regardless of how many HP the vehicle has left). If the test is failed, the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit in additional to any normal consquences to the Psyker"

To be honest it may work either way it doesn't really specify exactly how it works at all.

Some would say that its on a test by test basis, some would say its for all tests. I'm going to make a YMDC thread to see if there is any agreement over there.

Seriously - whichever way around it is, the fellblade giving you upto 12 rerolls on summoning powers is crazy! You wouldn't even need to throw *that* many dice at a 3WC power anymore. Each WC has a 75% chance of passing.
That means if rolling 5 dice (any dice getting a reroll) you have only a 10.35% chance of failing, and if you roll 6 dice (any dice getting a reroll) you only have a 1.78% (actually its 3.76%) chance of failing.
That is INSANE!

I can show the maths if people want. Just don't want to bore if not.


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Realistically that means that if you have 24 dice in your pool (as a good summoning list could easily have) you will practically be getting 4 guarenteed summons a turn.

Edit to correct maths.

Thank you for the odds! I would like to know how you worked it out I couldn't do it in my head last night .

I think the fellblade with this legacy is what the best summoning lists will be based on in future. There was outcry originally about potential game breaking summoning lists when 7th came out. But people then realised how difficult it was to cast multiple WC3 powers... Not anymore...


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I wrote a tree diagram. With 5 rolls there are 32 outcomes (2^5).
Out of these outcomes 16 have a success rate of at least 3 dice.

10 have outcomes of only 2 successes ((0.75^2 * 0.25^3)*10)= 90/1024. This is a fail.

5 have outcomes of only 1 success ((0.75 * 0.25^4)*5)= 15/1024

1 has an outcome with no successes (0.25^5)= 1/1024

90+15+1 = 106

106/1024 = 0.1035 (to 4 d.p)
=10.35%


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With 6 rolls there are 64 outcomes (2^6).
42 of these are sucesses
15 of these have 2 successes (0.75^2 * 0.25^4)*15 = 135/4096
6 of these have 1 success (0.75 * 0.25^5)*6 = 18/4096
1 of these has no successes (0.25^6) = 1/4096

135+18+1= 154

154/4096 = 0.0376 (to 4.dp) - did original 6 dice one slightly wrong, forgot to multiply by either 15 or 6 for one of the calculations, it's not a 1.78% chance of a fail.
= 3.76% chance of a fail.


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I cannot get over how unbelievably game changing that is! You have an incredibly high chance to get 4 summons a turn! AND you have a nice juicy LoW that isn't too bad itself.


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And that also is taking the least advantageous interpretation of the rule.

The fact that it lets you reroll the dice that fail is the big thing to remember when calculating, I think it's even higher than what you've stated.

So if you cast a warp charge 3 with 4 dice and got 2 success you could reroll 2 of the failures if 1 was a success you'd succeed.

It's better than a spell familiar as it's not a all together reroll just failed dice.

What else can get these ?

I haven't gotten my book yet.

I'm not impressed. The problems daemon factory had before wasn't getting summons off (it had so many warpcharges it was getting 3+ summons anyway) but that the army didn't do anything. The units bought to get all those warp charges don't do anything and the units summoned are MSU assault squads that just deep striked so they don't do anything either. The Fellblade isn't bringing an amazing amount of shooting for its almost 600 pt price tag. And since its a CSM LoW you have to take a CSM CAD to use it so you have to take a CSM HQ and two troops with it costing almost another 200 pts just to have it. Plus it still loses to alpha strikes, gun lines, and heavy psyker armies.

If you don't take the legacy on a non-super heavy vehicle though that vehicle becomes the prime target and easily focused to death thus denying you its benefits.

If it's possible to give Legacy to things like Dreadnoughts or multiple vehicles, then yes it is absolutely worth it.

It's impressive but the price tag is the issue. How does it work EXACTLY.

Does it allow a reroll of one dice per HP?

IE 7 HP you get 7 rerolls?

A single non-daemon/possessed vehicle per 1000 pts can be given legacies and then depending on the legacies affects what type of vehicles can take it. The legacy in question can be taken on any CSM vehicle (but doubles in cost on SH)

The 0.75 and 0.25 take into accout that any dice can be rerolled.

I don't know - a fellblade isn't too bad for its points, and getting an almost guaranteed 4 units extra a turn (doesn't have to be the primaris units) is absolutely fantastic - the old nid build of 4 tervigons sprouting 4 termegant units a turn was pretty powerful, these units are all a lot stronger than termegants. And these units themselves can bring more dice to the table depending on what you summon - but in this case you are FAR more likely to successfully summon AND have spare dice left over for other spells. Plus if playing maelstrom - you won't lose to gunlines if generating a minimum of 4 OS deepstriking units extra a turn.
It does seem like that is what it does (7hp = 7 rerolls), I dont have the book but jpr has quoted it above.


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I need to properly check my malific powers when I get home, but isn't it possible to go - summon herald then possess with a GD?Or is my memory just making that up?

Summoned units aren't Objective Secured and can't use conjuration powers on the turn they're summoned.

The tyranid list worked because each tervigon was a T6 5w MC that could kill anything that got near it, could spawn a lot more models, couldn't get DtW'ed, and had points spare to buy units that can actually kill stuff because tervigons were cheap. Heralds and pink horrors are neither durable nor damaging and take up a huge points allotment just to get those summons.

But that's the thing - instead of spending all those points on a list made primarily of horrors and heralds to make sure you have enough dice to guarentee summons, instead, you can spend the points on a fell blade which WILL be doing something each turn. Yes you still need horrors and heralds - but no where near as many.
Even if not OS they are still scoring. And they don't need to use their powers on the turn they arrive - they are there for later turns.
I've just got home, let me check my rulebook, IA:2 (assuming the fellblade is the same price), and my deamon dex and hash out a list to show you what I mean.

Well if your playing 2k you could take 2 Fire Raptors an make them Legacy ( They hover don't they?), if not make a Heldrake ( They hover don't they?)

Take that fether that get's better the more you damage it. Yes, please reduce the HP on this vehicle.

I mean it does absolutely have it's uses, because it's really really good but your minimum buy in is going to be something like 700 points. 400 for the Heralds, 300 for the Vehicle.

Hollismason wrote:
Well if your playing 2k you could take 2 Fire Raptors an make them Legacy ( They hover don't they?), if not make a Heldrake ( They hover don't they?)

You can't buy duplicates of the same legacy, you can't put it on a vehicle with the daemon rule, and it terrible on a flyer because they start in reserves so you lose a whole turn of summoning

 CrownAxe wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Well if your playing 2k you could take 2 Fire Raptors an make them Legacy ( They hover don't they?), if not make a Heldrake ( They hover don't they?)

You can't buy duplicates of the same legacy, you can't put it on a vehicle with the daemon rule, and it terrible on a flyer because they start in reserves so you lose a whole turn of summoning

Land Raider. 4 re-rolls is good enough.

Ok so here we go:

Deamons:

4 Heralds of Tzeentch all with ML3

The Blue Scribes

3 units of 11 pink horrors

Soulgrinder of Slaanesh

Soulgrinder of Slaanesh

CSM:

Sorcerer with ML3

12 cultists

10 cultists

Sicaran battle tank

Fellblade with legacy of Death of Kasyr Lutein (assuming legacy is 50pts on a SH)

1999pts

That's 21 + d6 WC, and that's all you need really with the legacy.
That'll be 4 (incredibly reliable) summons a turn + whatever the bluescribes contribute from malefic + the Portalglyph the first summoned heald puts down + what future summons then summon.
You could very easily start throwing multiple Greater deamons forward very early on.
Cultists and horrors can bubblewrap to save agaisnt melta so ceremite isnt needed.
The Soul Grinders can put pressure on from the start with their fast speed and distract firepower from the Sicaran and Fellblade. The Fellblade and Sicaran put out a st8 ap3 7" ordnance blast, a st10 ap2 5" ordnance blast, 4 tl lascannon shots, 3 tl heavy bolter shots and 6 tl st7 ap4 rending ignore jink shots between them.
4 big enough threats to distract the opponent whilst the summon factory starts snowballing. And when bloodthirsters start arriving the opponent will really be in trouble.

I'd really like to see that in action

That list is 2006, probably because the sicaran is in IA13 also so changed too. also the legacy is only 25 pts on a SH. Just drop the two extra cultists though.

In the end i'm not impressed with summoned units. Daemons work best when they get buffed by psy powers or rewards or locus and summoned units don't get them making all the MSU units you just summoned fragile and weak. Even the GDs you summon suck because they have no gifts so are all just T6 with only a 5++ to protect them except for a BT but being a FMC who just deep striked he has to wait 3 turns before he gets to assault.

Ah tbf the list was 2001pts with the points I thought everything was, I miscalculated, but could have reduced it by slashing a cultist. But yeh IA:13 must be different values for it to be 6pts over. As you say though - the two extra cultists are no big loss.
Hmmm... You could mitigate that by advancing the line (but staying out of rapid fire range), 12" move plus assault would then mean he could get into assault in 1 turn after arrival, or at worst 2. Especially if you are playing maelstrom which requires the opponent to venture out of their deployment zone.
The thing is though, the opponent is getting eventually worn down by the Fellblade, Sicaran and Soulgrinders, whilst you are continually replacing your losses. It's a battle of attrition the list should usually win out on, thanks to the reliable summon rolls.
The units coming out from Incursion and possession will be wearing the opponent down as well.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok so here we go:

Deamons:

4 Heralds of Tzeentch all with ML3

The Blue Scribes

3 units of 11 pink horrors

Soulgrinder of Slaanesh

Soulgrinder of Slaanesh

CSM:

Sorcerer with ML3

12 cultists

10 cultists

Sicaran battle tank

Fellblade with legacy of Death of Kasyr Lutein (assuming legacy is 50pts on a SH)

1999pts

That's 21 + d6 WC, and that's all you need really with the legacy.
That'll be 4 (incredibly reliable) summons a turn + whatever the bluescribes contribute from malefic + the Portalglyph the first summoned heald puts down + what future summons then summon.
You could very easily start throwing multiple Greater deamons forward very early on.
Cultists and horrors can bubblewrap to save agaisnt melta so ceremite isnt needed.
The Soul Grinders can put pressure on from the start with their fast speed and distract firepower from the Sicaran and Fellblade. The Fellblade and Sicaran put out a st8 ap3 7" ordnance blast, a st10 ap2 5" ordnance blast, 4 tl lascannon shots, 3 tl heavy bolter shots and 6 tl st7 ap4 rending ignore jink shots between them.
4 big enough threats to distract the opponent whilst the summon factory starts snowballing. And when bloodthirsters start arriving the opponent will really be in trouble.

Actually, I wouldn't go Daemon at all...

Take 2 CSM Sorc + Allied Black Legion Sorc with Last memory (4 WC dice), ie:

-Ahriman (4 WC dice)
-ML 3 Sorc (3 WC dice) Maelfic
-Allied BL Sorc with Last memory (4 WC dice) Maelfic

That's 11 + d6 WC... plenty with Fellblade with legacy of Death of Kasyr Lutein.

Makes resurrecting that Doom of Prospero list intriguing again. You don't have to go daemon summoning ALL THE TIME.

Then build out your list via IA13 units. w00t!

Add the Ahriman+one of the other Sorcs to a 50 man zombie squad?

The units summoned by the primaris power are in general pretty weak (although hounds or seekers are decent), but summoning plague drones with incursion seems like the strongest option. 3 3W T5 bodies that have poisoned and move 2D6 in the assault phase after they are summoned seems pretty good.

I *think* from what people have said that it only works with malefic.
If only going ~14 or 15 average dice you may as well go with the much more points efficient Typhon. As only 7 or 8 on average will be failing anyway.
It will definitely work with what you've posted still, will just get fewer summons. More like 2 or 3 rather than 4 or 5. But then you could focus more of the list on other stuff :-).


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 astro_nomicon wrote:
The units summoned by the primaris power are in general pretty weak (although hounds or seekers are decent), but summoning plague drones with incursion seems like the strongest option. 3 3W T5 bodies that have poisoned and move 2D6 in the assault phase after they are summoned seems pretty good.

Putting down 12-15 plague drones a turn would be pretty nice ;-).


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Would mean you'd need to roll Incursion 4 or 5 times out of your 21 rolls...


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Plague drones and Bloodthirsters for the win!

Yeah it has to be able to move, so that's kind of a kicker. I mean you don't wnat to just sit there and do nothing.

I think you shouldn't build your list completely around summoning but using it to augment an already aggressive army with several hard units. Summoning 3x3 drones on top of spawn/screamers/maulerfiends etc is very difficult to deal with.

flamers work if you want to do something the turn you are summoned!

Good necro-bump very productive