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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 15:17:14
Subject: General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Ever finished a model you poured hours and hours upon and don't like the outcome? Again and again?
If you answered this question with "yes", you probably know how I feel right now.
I've several problems that hinder my painting, and I know not how to deal with all of those.
Those problems I KNOW of:
1. generally not very dextruous - I'm even surprised I can get to the level I currently am, but I think I've somewhat reached the peak of my manual ability.
2. Impatience - Putting down 8 layers of a single colour becomes tedious and I tend to become sloppy the farther progressed I am into a model. More often then not, I have to force myself not to assemble a model for the gratification of it instead of painting in subassemblies which would improve the paintjob.
3. Bad habits - you know, those things you did when you started painting. Like not correctly pinning a model, not cleaning the brush, not getting fresh water from time to time...
4. I have problems transfering the things I read and see in tutorials onto my own work. I'm a theoretical thinker; the practical application of it however is a different beast.
5. I hold myself to a higher standard that I can achieve. Just seeing the "speedpaints" some people do puts my work to shame.
So thats the theory. In real life, this then turns out to look like Belial here. Nothing to scoff at. He's reasonably well painted and plonking him on the table in my FLGS he'll look just fine (especially compared to my usual opponent  )
I spent hours basecoating the guy to a reasonably clean standard. I did the highlighting of the bone with airbrush and made a simple, but reasonable power sword.
I gave acrylic washes yet another chance - I don't really like it too much, but I still am not very good at using oil washes - something I will work on for better effect. And this is where it usually starts to fall apart.
The washing and highlighting went over in maybe an hour tops.
And, in the end, not being able to do it better, the highlights simple and plain sucked. That blending on the robes... disastrous. Ignore the face, I dislike helmetless stuff anyway - just stupid imo
The satin varnish did a little frosting it seems... really need to dial down the application of those.
So I ask you to take a good look at the pictures. Help me out here - what could I have done better, and more importantly, how?
If I get advice and critique on something I did, maybe I have an easier time improving.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/23 17:39:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 15:32:28
Subject: General painting help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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This is pretty good painting, generally far beyond what I can accomplish.
You need to put more different colours into the skin, especially for faces. Reds into the cheeks, purple into the eye sockets, maybe some blue into the temples.
I think one of the hardest things is judging exactly where shadows should lay. Your technique for the shadows seems solid, but you need to work on the application of exactly where the shadow needs to lie. I can't really help you out any further on this because I'm not good on it either.
I suppose another thing you could do is find someone that produces effects you'd like to mimic. Send them pictures of your attempts and ask them how they would 'fix' the model to make it look more like one of their own?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 16:06:01
Subject: Re:General painting help
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Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant
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I think that model looks fantastic and you're being way too harsh on yourself. I'm not too keen on the sword and the face needs a bit more depth but overall it looks great.
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d-usa wrote:Orks are the GW version of R2D2. No matter how advanced the defenses may be, there is always an open serial port somewhere that can be pluged into and a firewall that was never configured. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 17:27:35
Subject: General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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WEll, thats a different tune than I was expecting tbh.
I figure it's time to put that 0.2 nozzle on my airbrush to use and try some highlighting on cloth with that one...
Yes, the face turned out really terrible. I'm really lacking practice with faces since I put helmets whereever I can, not only for aesthaetical reasons. I just find it to be hilariously stupid to wear the best armor available and then forgo a helmet because.. reasons.
Gold is giving me trouble as well, especially this small details. Just doesn't look right, imo.. Too brassy and not goldy enough.
Maybe I'm suffering from "artist's disease" and the fact that I stare at my miniatures through a 4x magnifying glass
I still think there's loads to improve upon, yet I can't really put my finger on how I can do that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/23 17:29:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 17:58:28
Subject: Re:General painting help
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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My main piece of advice would be to add a couple more stages to your layering. As it stands, the transition is a little stark. You've got everything down though more or less, just practice practice practice.
Try having a look at this from the Sicarius masterclass. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/BlueOrphen/PaintingBlue.jpg The thinner your layers, the better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/23 18:56:20
Subject: General painting help
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Fixture of Dakka
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1. Painting dexterity comes with time and practice. Every 100 models, you will see *significant* improvement. Eventually, drawing straight fine lines for edge highlights goes really quickly.
2. Try to prime in colors closer to what you want to paint, or the hardest major color on a model. For instance, on the model you have there, prime with Army Painter Bone, because that layer is the hardest to paint. Don't prime it black, because the bone, green and red are all a pain to paint over black (the bone will take a zillion layers...).
If you are using GW paints, make sure you basecoat with basecoat paints. They cover better. So, even if you want ushbanti bone as your main cloth color, basecoat with Zandri Dust.
Preasemble is not a bad thing. Often times, on posable models, you will damage your paintjob getting pieces on. I would suggest compromising, and preassembling a certain amount, and leaving a couple of pieces off (maybe an arm and a head). That lets you get everywhere, and glue as little as possible at the end.
3. 25mm base models, you don't have to worry about pinning. Cleaning brushes, on the other hand, is absolutely critical. Nothing will make your paint job harder than gunky brushes. I suggest you try Winsor & Newton Brush Cleaner and Restorer to make your life easier.
4. Just practice, bud
5. If you really enjoy painting, just take it easy and every model will get a little better. I suggest painting 2-3 models at once, especially in the early stages, so that you're not tempted to do things like paint over washes that aren't dry yet.
I don't think oil washes or paints offer anything over acrylic ones. The primary benefit is that they dry slowly (which allows blending) and can achieve opacity without many layers. Certain colors like red and yellow go on more easily, but it's a lot more work to clean up, you need ventilation, and so on.
The washes are really important. They offer a lot of shading for very little work, but don't put it on too thick, and don't always use black. Highlights require more skill and patience, and frankly, on a model like yours, you should be spending multiples of time on the highlighting and details as you spend on basecoating, because there are a zillion do-dads and details.
Try testors dullcote for the varnish.
Generally speaking, you may wish to practice on simpler (and cheaper) models, and models without cloth folds. Those cloth folds force you to layer or blend (you did a decent job on the green!), and bone-colored cloth is not easy to master. Things like power armor are a lot easier to paint.
The low hanging fruit to significantly improve your models, in my opinion
- Crisp basecoating is really important. If you're going to paint grey bits on the power armor, don't get bone onto it, and vice versa. If you can't do this yet, use fewer colors, and just paint some of the grey parts bone and wash it -- this will look better than a smudge of bone on the grey.
- Once you have that down pat, edge highlights do a world of good for a model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 08:53:49
Subject: Re:General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Every 100 models? That's gonna take a while  But admittedly, that one was the last model I needed for my first 2k army to be painted. So I'm not that far "in" yet.
I prime with an airbrush. No rattle can will ever get close to my models ever again. I have several Vallejo Primers sitting on my desk - black, grey and white, depending on what I plan to do.
The base coating usually is the easiest step for me - there is no finesse to this. Just thin your paints, paint inside the lines, alternate brush strokes - no shibby and fancy techniques to apply, you always see where your colours should go. That is why I can spend such a load of time on it. I know exactly WHAT to do
This is when, as mentioned, the highlighting falls apart. It's more creative since there's not just "painting by numbers". I know in THEORY what I should do (in this case for the cloak, lay down caliban green and mix it with warpstone glow in increments, setting layer upon thin layer and tie it together with a glaze). However when I reach that stage... I.. just fail Oo I guess after spending so much time on the model I just want it to be "done" for the gratification. This, and if I botch it up, I lose motivation quickly. That would be my prime issue when I think about it. When it drops below what I consider "good enough", I tend to get into the "feth it" mindset and just slobber paint on, since it's "ruined anyway". Happens basically everytime I highlight since I cannot do it good enough.
I remember exactly when I took up Belial, put down some Evil Sunz Scarlet on the palette, grabbed my 000 W&N and tried to edge highlight the sword on the Watcher on his left leg... Just after a few strokes I was so demotivated and decided to switch to blending (which I can do a lil bit better). The details are so tiny that highlighting them is really hard for me, since there is no clear defined "paint till here" basically written on the model.
In the meantime, I like B. a bit better - after all, this is where I came from just about a year ago:
Just writing this down makes me feel it's more a psychological or mindset problem than anything else. My next project is a Lucius Drop Pod that I can airbrush the feth out of, so I'd wager that will lift my spirits a bit  After that it's onto a DA Mark IV Ven Dread... That one's gonna be a real challenge to test my mettle. Let's hope I can beat myself into being patient there (I already fight the MUST...ASSEMBLE...EVERYTHING with that one, sooo pretty that model >.<
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 08:54:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 09:43:03
Subject: Re:General painting help
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Fixture of Dakka
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Hmmmmm. I think perhaps you're combining two different techniques and describing them as "highlighting": layering and edge highlighting.
Layering creates gentle accents (to simulate lighting) by putting one semi-transparent paint on top of another paint. In the GW method, this is done by starting with the darkest color in the lowest recess, and working up towards the lightest color on the highest ridges. They suggest this because it may be hard to get the brush into a crevice without messing up what's higher up, if you do that first.
Edge highlighting is creates sharp accents with highly contrasted lines to give the viewer visual cues of where the edges of the model are, when they might otherwise be visible.
Wet-on-wet blending and feathering can give you smoother transitions.
In this example, you can see all of those techniques --
Around the gauntlets, face, backpack edges, you can see edge highlighting. Even on the silver of the backpack exaust, I use edge highlighting to accentuate the rims and draw attention to them. The brown robes are done with layering (you can see, the relatively sharp color changes). The purple robes are accomplished with wet blending -- you shouldn't see any sharp color changes at all.
On your models, you don't do any (or very little) edge highlighting -- and this is something you get tons of mileage out of. As long as your basecoat is crisp, and you've done a wash, a clean edge highlight is the difference between night and day on a model.
Your specific problem, layering robes, is not an uncommon issue. Many people have trouble with this, because it isn't an easy. Here's why:
1. First of all, the odds are stacked against you, because the GW paints for this progression are Zandri Dust, Ushbanti Bone, and Screaming Skull (with a wash of Seraphim Sepia after the basecoat). Why is this an issue you say? Well, these paints from GW... hm... how do I put it nicely? They SUCK. You get brush strokes, coverage is terrible, it does not thin well with water (it pools, dries with rings, and otherwise behaves badly), and.. uh.. do I need to go on? One solution is to use Liquitex Flo-Aid, which helps immensely.
Another is to use P3 Menoth White and Menoth Highlight, which are almost identical to Ushbanti Bone and Screaming Skull. They are better paints, in my opinion. However, they also need to be thinned, and Flo-Aid is a great thinner for these really bone/white colors. Or, you could go off the reservation and use an alcohol based acrylic, but I think this is too much trouble for a fixable problem.
2. Second, knowing how those flowing robes should be shaded is not really obvious. Your first instinct is, do a wash, and leave all the recesses alone. Yet, this looks, oddly, *dark*. Or just wrong. If you look at the GW and PP studio models, both of which have many models with robes, you'll see that the places which get the really dark treatment is extremely slim. Most of the recesses actually get a gentle darkening, with only a couple that get the really strong shade. There's no good way to deal with this other than practice.
3. If you mistakenly paint over the washed area, you're kind of screwed, because you can't fix that part of it. There is a cheat here: Zandri Dust + Seraphim Serra is close to XV88; and Zandri Dust + Agrax Earthshade is close to Steel Legion Drab. That's not precise of course (and the color will vary wildly depending on how much wash you use) but this can help even it up a little bit, in an emergency.
4. And finally, knowing where to use that Screaming Skull (the final highlight) is a real pain. Putting it in the right place makes the robes look fantastic; putting it in the wrong place, and the whole thing looks silly. I'm sorry to say that other than to stare at studio models and experiment, there isn't really a shortcut to this.
One option, by the way, is to not paint your robes bone. Almost any color is easier -- blue, purple, green, brown... even red is easier.
Oh, one last tip, since you are using W&N's: for edge highlighting, I would suggest a WNS7 size 00 (not 000). It holds more paint and is otherwise almost identical to the 000 in terms of the ability to "get in there", and is equally forgiving for drawing fine lines. For layering cloth, though, I absolutely would not use 00, because it is way too small, and will leave you with brush strokes. If you are using a round, try using a size 1 or 2. Or, give a filbert brush a try (that's the flat brush with rounded corners). It is a very nice brush for wet blending and layering up natural materials (where the transition should be less jarring than armor plates).
Hope that helps a little.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 10:14:23
Subject: General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Oh yeah, bone coloured robes are something only Slaneesh will take pleasure in.
I've found that Zandri is just WAY to dark, especially if shaded, compared to Ushabti. Without wet blending it WILL kill you (and that's something I don't dare doing yet.. mostly because everyone tells you how difficult, yet great, it is). Guess I can somewhat eleviate that with some more airbrushing.
Brushwise, I'm equipped with a 000, 0 and a 2 and I tend to use them as you described already
So.. edge highlighting. Sorry for the confusion, I tend to call everything "highlighting" that's supposed to bring out the details. Kind of a overarching word that incorporates layering and edge highlighting.
I've always shied away from edge highlighting combined with layering since... well... dunno... felt like two different styles on one model would look awkward. But you've proven this isn't the case and it's more a case of WHAT you're painting.
"Hard" materials (armour) benefit from the edge, whereas "soft" materials would work better with layering.
So far I've found that doing OSL highlights with an airbrush gives a nice look for a model - in this case basecoat of Ushabti, zenital down with Screaming Skull and zenital "upwards" and into some recesses with Zandri Dust. That's why I didn't edge highlight the armour (besides, all those edges make Thairne go crazy!), but once all the other colours fill in, that kind of highlighting is just to subtle, I see that now.
I'll try to go the "hard" and "soft" route in my next models (which will be Ravenwing, which means basically all edge highlights with only minimal cloth, yey!)
Question though: how did you paint that awesome gold? Don't tell me its Liquid Gold, please don't...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 11:13:19
Subject: General painting help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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After lots of advice from GD level painters, I switched away from 0- brushes as well as towards good brushes (Raphael 8404, couldn't find W&N S7 fast enough) and I've seen a lot of improvement.
From what I've seen, pro painters use #1 brushes. No 0, no 00, no 000.
The reason is that the #1 brush can do anything you want it to, and using only the 1 means you get a ton more practice with the *right* brush.
If you're going to do zenithal highlighting, then clearly stick to the airbrush, it's the best tool for the job even if you may need to do a bit of masking.
Other paints can definitely be an improvement, but they're not necessary.
Don't forget that most GD miniatures are painted with regular GW or VMC paints.
I believe you can make paints that are a lot better than GW's light and metallics.
The metallic flakes in GW's paint are bigger than my aluminum powder pigment from Kremer, and those weren't even picked for their small size.
Just like other paints appear to be able to create even coverage white or bone with a good texture, which is just impossible with the GW paint.
I've never done that research though, so I don't know where you could find better paint, it may be worth it to learn more about painting and less about handling crappy water-based acrylic paints.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 11:23:25
Subject: General painting help
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Fixture of Dakka
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The gold is actually pretty easy: Rhinox hide first, Balthazar gold, and finally gehenna gold.
The Rhinox lets me skip a wash, so as not to make painting them white feathers any harder than necessary. Balthazar first, because Gehenna is a layer paint and therefore very thin.
You could get the same color with using any company's reddish gold; for example, Greedy Gold from Army Painter looks just like Gehenna (but is much thicker).
re- Zandri Dust. The reason Zandri is there is twofold: first, it's the same hue as Ushbanti, which is the main color you're going to see. Second, Usbanti coverage sucks, so if you're painting over black primer, or Olive Green (VMA) primer, Ushbanti will be a zillion coats to cover thin. The Zandri preps the surface with something "closer". And finally, Zandri + Serraphim is actually quite a pleasing shadow, because you get a more honey color, rather than the dark brown you have if you were to use Ushbanti + agrax (and Usbanti + Serraphim is just too light).
Either way, at the end of the day, Ushbanti wil be your main robe color, not Zandri.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 12:35:06
Subject: Re:General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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@Morgoth:
Well yes, I DO like zenithal. But look at the pictures - it's hardly, if at all, visible now. Might be the lighting, it looked definately better with just the sword and the armour painted.
Take a look, you can especially see the shading on his... back-sword-relic-flag-thingy and on the gauntlets underside and so on. Now compare it to the finished miniature... It just gets "swamped". So I have to be somewhat careful on where to apply just that technique and where to edge highlight.
I think I'll stick to a 0. That's my current "workhorse" brush and I can handle it just fine. The difference is not THAT big to a 1, and honestly, the 000 I hardly ever use, except for that dot of white in the lenses and the like.
@Talys
U wot m8?
The way I do gold usually is balthazar, agrax, gehennas, auric. And it somewhat looks to reddish still... since I try the "traditional" way of not covering all the Balthasar.
Your technique seems to be faster actually... So you cover all the Balthasar, which is basically just the foundation with Gehennas? And why no Auric as highlight?
Yes, I get the idea of Basecolour vs Layer  Where I run into trouble is if some colours just divert from the scheme.
Take green vor an example. You plaint Caliban Green not only as an undercoat, but a basecoat. Then you start highlighting with Warpstone Glow after a Biel-Tan Wash and finish with Moot Green. Classic Citadel Scheme.
If you try exactly that with bone it looks like the pic of my DV Sarge. Or the gold on Belial. That is what I partially didn't get though: Sometimes the base colour is just an undercoat, sometimes it's the basecoat. Easy to grasp, but sometimes I can be incredibly stupid. If you don't know what colour is supposed to do what in that hue.. As I said, knowing and watching in theory is something different than doing it yourself. But I'm learning a great deal just from your post, so thanks and kudos so far!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 14:48:23
Subject: General painting help
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think your zenithal highlighting was a bit too soft and it was covered up by your later highlighting and shading.
If you're going to do zenithal highlighting, it's probably better to do dark from below, wash, normal from slightly above, light from above, and then edge highlighting.
It's probably very tricky to start with a zenithal airbrush and then shade it further with the paintbrush, as the zenithal highlighting is already very well balanced.
In your case, you destroyed all the nuance and shading you had created with the airbrush when you put on the ink and then the local highlights (not edge).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 14:49:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 14:59:56
Subject: General painting help
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Hm I might have to go stronger with the highlights next time.
But what I did not do... I actually did pin wash the model. All that slobbering about with the blotchy acrylic washes... not on my turf! I litterally left all the bone colour alone after the picture you see above (and the Sepia Shade directly applied to the recesses).
I have actually no idea where the zenithal went... I'll stare at him when I'm back at home, maybe it really is just the light from the shots. OR the satin varnish (vallejo). The only thing I applied over it as a finishing step.
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