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Imagine, you have a squad of 2 big meks with SAG. They fire the same weapon - Shokk Attakk Gun but the strength of a gun is 2d6.
The rules say that shots from guns with different profiles should be resolved separately. Than it's specified in brackeds (str, ap, etc). However, in this case we have 2 guns with the exact same profile but different strength most of the time.

So, what's the correct way to do it. Roll str and if it differs from one another, fire the guns separately and when the str is equal fire simultaniously? Or fire separately / simultaniously no matter what?

If you roll different strengths then you have different profiles so much be resolved seperately

But they both have 2d6 profile.

Meaning everything in this range is the same profile. Nope?

Huh, good question. I'd assume that since the weapon profile is essentially the 'same' you'd throw the dice for both attacks at the same time and then resolve the effects for each gun. At least, that's how I'd do it.

 koooaei wrote:
But they both have 2d6 profile.

Meaning everything in this range is the same profile. Nope?

I'd say no. It's the same profile (how it's printed) but not the same profile (different strengths). So roll for S first and then fire in groups accordingly.

I have to ask, what Rule states:
The rules say that shots from guns with different profiles should be resolved separately.
- Koooaei

From my understanding we nominated 'Weapon Groups' based solely on the name of the Weapon, with different ammo types being different named Weapons for this purpose. It is only during a later stage in the sequence do we create 'pools' with different values in them, but at that point in the process we are still not dealing with 'guns with different profile,' but are simply have a number of successful Wounds. At that point in the process, these Wounds may have very different numbers then what was found on the weapon Profile. After all, by that point in the sequence multiple Rules may have modified the Value allocated to the Shot itself or to any Wound those Shots generate. There is no allowance to go back to what the Strength Value on the Profile and claim that is also the Strength of all the Wounds in that pool....

Different Wound Pools, cause the Wounds have different Strength Values at the time we separate them into Pools.

JinxDragon wrote:
I have to ask, what Rule states:
The rules say that shots from guns with different profiles should be resolved separately.
- Koooaei

From my understanding we nominated 'Weapon Groups' based solely on the name of the Weapon, with different ammo types being different named Weapons for this purpose. It is only during a later stage in the sequence do we create 'pools' with different values in them, but at that point in the process we are still not dealing with 'guns with different profile,' but are simply have a number of successful Wounds. At that point in the process, these Wounds may have very different numbers then what was found on the weapon Profile. After all, by that point in the sequence multiple Rules may have modified the Value allocated to the Shot itself or to any Wound those Shots generate. There is no allowance to go back to what the Strength Value on the Profile and claim that is also the Strength of all the Wounds in that pool....

Different Wound Pools, cause the Wounds have different Strength Values at the time we separate them into Pools.

The problem is that now in 7-th you got to make mini-shooting sequences with all the weapons in the squad resolved separately. So, they basically don't fire simultaniously. For example, you have a flamer + combi-flamer. You choose to shoot a flamer first and it hits, wounds and kills the closest models. Only after the sequence is finished can you proceed to another weapon which is a combi-flamer that's gona hit less targets now.

But the thing is you got to create groups of weapons with identical profiles. And you do it before shooting is made. In the case of a squad with flamer + combi-flamer you have 2 weapon profiles: Profile 1 - Flamer, Profile 2 - combi-flamer.

But in the case of a squad of 2 meks, you have onle 1 profile - SAG. Which has str 2d6.

1. You can't tell if 2d6 on one sag is different from another 2d6 on the other sag before you roll to str.
2. You can't roll to str before you make a shooting attack.
3. To make a shooting attack you must nominate groups of weapons with different profiles going back to 1.

See, it's a Schrodinger's SAG squad. Can't tell if the guns have different profiles unless you shoot with them.

I wonder how to put this nicely, as I do need to ask you to read the sequence....
All the Zzap Rule and other similar Rules do is inject instructions allowing us to determine the strength before we even select the Weapon Group at Step 3!

To further explain, there is no requirement to separate weapons into groups prior to step 3. Even when we reach this requirement and separate these weapons we do so based in a simple criteria: Name, nothing more then the actual Name of the Weapon on the Profile. Prior to this point in this sequence we do not have a requirement to create any such Groupings and we wouldn't worry about the Weapon's Strength even if we where to create the grouping prematurely. Only during Step 6 in this Sequence do we encounter instructions involving separating Wounds into Pools based on Strength Value, but with these particular weapons that is long after we have a Strength Value for each Shot.

In Short:
They will be resolved as part of the same Weapon Group, but as separate Wound Pools.
Wounds are where Strength matters.

So, they shoot simultaniously? And Zzap gunz have identical str as they roll once and apply the result for all the guns. That's a different situation.

I won't go into explaining how 'simultaneously' is a dangerous word in 40k, but read General Principal: Sequencing for more information.

This is how the sequence breaks down:-
Step 1: Nominate the Unit to shoot
Step 2: Choose a Target
Neither of these are in debate but their requirements do not bring up Weapon Groups, so there are no groupings yet

Step 3, quoted: All models equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the target.
We select the shokk Gunz, both of them, and create the Weapon Group containing X number of shots.

Step 4: This is replaced by Large Blasts but also has this additional Rule due to the Shokk Gunz itself, determine its Strength after placing the template but before rolling the Scatter dice.
At this point we place the "Template," Game Workshop doesn't remember it's own terminology, where we wish the first shot to go and before we scatter it we determine it's strength. We then repeat this for the X number of other shots to see how many other successful hits. The Rules are a little bit sloppy here, mirroring your original problem but within the correct place, but there is nothing which breaks as long as you keep track of which 'Hit' has which Strength Value. I recommend using different coloured die but still resolving them 'simultaneously' until we break them down into further groups later on.

Step 5: Nothing here, we have Strength and can generate wounds off each Hit well enough

Step 6, quoted: All Wounds with exactly the same Strength, AP value and special rules must go into the same pool.
It is at this point we create different pools of die based on the strength of the Shot/Wound/Fired weapon or whatever else Game Workshop decides to call it at any given day of the week.
Prior to this point they where just separate shots, all with their own values, but sitting in the same groupings.

Step 7: End of Weapon Group, return to Step 3 or end of Shooting for this Unit.

Oh, you mean the hits are resolved at the same time? So, we place the first blast, than roll to str. Than place the second blast and roll to str. And only after than we resolve wounds?

And now imagine, we place the first blast and roll 5-5. So, mek emidiately teleports to the target and gets into cc with them. But does it mean that the 2-d SAG can't shoot at them? Or as the shots are resolved at the same time, we proceed placing the 2-d blast regardless of mek in combat?

And when the 1-st one rolls 4-4, 6-5 or 6-6 and has a different profile now - either s6ap6 small blast, s10 ap1 centre of the blast or S: D vortex...what happens in this case? Are they still resolved at the same time or we've created another weapon profile out of sequence?..And what now?..

I don't like saying the word simultaneously or say at the same time, things are never resolve simultaneously but sometimes they are described as such.... yay Game Workshop.

Blast Markers contains a Rule telling us to scatter one then the other, now this is somewhat sloppy as I could make an argument that allows both markers to be placed before the first one is scattered. I believe the Intent was to resolve both the placement and scatter, and in that situation the second Mek would be forbidden from legally firing. As for the other results, they are resolved before the scatter so we simply change the size of the Blast Marker, pray that the center hits something or chuckle mechanically and break out the Vortex... scatter it and then the second Blast Marker. Profile on the 'Shot/Wound/Hit/ect' does in fact reflect the new Value that we set it to, so any Wounds that refer to said profile will see the new values and Special Rules thus, for the Codex demands that we resolve it as such.

See if you can get twin Vortex for me.

Oh, twin vortex are easy. Just fire 1296 times and you'll statistically get one

So, any idea on how to deal with wierd results like teleporting meks? How does it interact with shooting sequence of the second gun?

I'm not sure what the rules question exactly IS in here because the end result is going to be the same regardless of the order in which you shot the shokk attakk gunz.

As far as rolling to wound, you can't roll to wound with 2 different str values. They have to be rolled separately. Sure the 'profile' says 2d6, but in all honesty you should take any instance of reading printed die-rolls as what the actual roll is.

Take the scatter rules for instance. When you read "scatters 2d6 inches", and you rolled a 2 and a 3, you should read the rule now as "scatters 5 inches" for that one instance of scattering.
So for your SAG, When you check the profiles, replace the profile of each weapon as your die result.

If you want to stick to the rule 'all guns of the same name/profile shoot at the same time' then resolve all of your wounds for the varying SAGs before you move on to other weapons.

As far as determining which order to fire all the SAG in, pick any order you like, as the end result is going to be the same. Models don't get removed until wounds get allocated.

The odd wording GW uses 'Simultaneously' simply means that unless a special rule says otherwise, it will be as if each gun fired in a shooting attack is firing at the squad before any other guns have been fired.

Methinks you're overthinking this.

 koooaei wrote:
So, any idea on how to deal with wierd results like teleporting meks? How does it interact with shooting sequence of the second gun?

It doesn't, as laying blasts is "simultaneous" ; the mek isn't there until all have been laid.

Nosferatu1001,
I am not entirely sure about that.

The Rule in question has a strange timing, it is Resolved right before the "template" scatters... yes they use template for the Blast Marker within it. The bit I am unsure of is if the Authors intend for us to place all the Blast Markers before we roll to scatter each one, or if the placement is done after we resolve the scatter from a previous Marker. If we place the Markers first then it is legal to put both of them over the Target Unit prior to rolling the Strength and resolving any of the double results. If we Place and Scatter as one action, then the second marker can not be placed until after this Roll has been made.

Regardless which method one is correct the Meks must be moved before the second Marker Scatters, as we do that immediately on getting the 5,5 Result.
Best case outcome they end up getting hit by the second shot, worse case means they deny the placement of the second shot entirely.

Order of operations being:
1). Place Template,
2). Roll Strength, and apply any double results,
3). Roll Scatter.

Crazy Ork tech