Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello I am a new Grey Knights players, I will play a Nemesis strikeforce list.
my question is what is best on the Terminators and paladins, nemesis force halberd or Nemesis Force Sword?

It really depends on what you need points for. As there is a 2 point difference and the halberd grants +1 str its really negligible most of the time. I used halberds on some guys because i think they look cool, but it really doesn't affect game play that much.

I think the math says that Falchions are better (more attacks = more wounds, especially with Hammerhand's bonus added in). Halberds are nice if you don't want to depend on Hammerhand, in my opinion, and if you don't quite have the points to spare for Falchions.

so you have Falchions on all the guys except on the hammer guy, even on psycannon guy?

The funny thing is that in the new codex, each weapon is priced perfectly. More killing power = more points.

Falchions > Halberd > Sword

All of them are AP3, so youre just looking at additional killyness and yes, math says +1 attack is better than +1 Strength for your attacks

basic math:

Grey Knight Strike Squad member vs. enemy tactical marine

1 base attack on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding

So 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 hits; 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 AP3 wounds

With Halberd:

1 * 0.5 = 0.5 hits; 0.5 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 0.33 AP3 wounds

With Falchions instead:

2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 AP3 wounds.

As you can see, the extra killing power gained from the falchion is so high that the jump from halberd to falchion is greater than the jump from sword to halberd, this making the falchion more worth the extra 2 points over the halberd than the halberd's extra 2 points over the sword.

So this was the basic comparison. When you factor in Grey Knights that come with 2 attacks base, then the halberd granting +1S on both attacks trims the advantage of the falchions over the halberds somewhat, and expands the advantage of the halberds over the swords.

E.g:

Grey Knight Purifier Squad member vs. enemy tactical marine

2 base attacks on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding

So 2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 AP3 wounds

With Halberd:

2 * 0.5 = 1 hit; 1 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 0.66 AP3 wounds

With Falchions instead:

3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 AP3 wounds.

Factor in the extra attack gained by charging, and that advantage becomes even slimmer.

E.g:

Grey Knight Terminator Squad member who charged vs. enemy tactical marine

3 base attacks on WS4 vs WS4 = 50% change of hitting, then S4 vs T4 = 50% chance of wounding

So 3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75 AP3 wounds

With Halberd:

3 * 0.5 = 1.5 hits; 1.5 * 0.66 (because halberds wound marines on 3+, which is 66.6%) = 1 AP3 wounds

With Falchions instead:

4 * 0.5 = 2 hits; 2 * 0.5 = 1 AP3 wounds.

As you can see, for units that come with 2 attacks base, Halberds do more for 2 points than Falchions do for their additional 2 over the Halberds. When these units charge, the Falchions end up doing nothing over the halberds on the turn they charge.


However, on the other hand Falchions work well with Hammerhand, while Halberds do not benefit from it at all, unless youre fighting a monstrous creature.

Halberds benefit from HH. Str7 is very fatal to vehicles. It can even glance Imperial Knights.

Its also a Str buff you don't need to use up your psychic power for. So you can activate Force Weapons instead if you want.

On terminators I would say overall its a wash between Falchions and Halberds. Whichever you want more. I would go for a mix personally.

It all depends on what you expect your models to do - what purpose do you want them to serve?

When in doubt, use the rule of cost - if it costs more, it probably is better (or at least more versatile).

When you want to kill a wraith....something, that stength boost will allow you to wound it if it's toughness 8, whereas previously you would not have been able to. More attacks are mathematically better in every other case.

Extra strength for vehicle hunting is also nice, but you can also sprinkle hammers in there as necessary if you need high strength. Overall, the biggest deterrent to getting falchions all the time is in fact their cost. How often are you in combat with that squad? How often will you benefit from those extra attacks? If the answer is "probably never" (either because you are not often in combat with that squad or because when you are they already murder everything they touch) then maybe the points aren't worth it. It's a small cost though so it's not like you're crippling yourself if you do take more expensive upgrades. You just might be able to field a better list if you keep in mind what you want the unit to do and equip it specifically for that purpose.

I find each has their place. You don't want to be expending HH on every unit but on the other hand when you do you want it to count.

Personally I like falchions on dedicated combat units and character escorts. I also like falchions for interceptors. Paladins I feel need the falchions to make up for their attacks/cost ratio. This puts them back in line with GKT in terms of damage output and makes for a nice return on your HH and Force investment.

I like halberds on nilla termies otherwise but I'll usually settle for swords.

Hammers are pretty essential but you can skimp if you plan to dedicate an IC with ndh to the squad (or draigo).

For terminators I like a mix of halberds and hammers, I actually converted a bunch of SM thunder hammers so I could have more. I like being able to wound most basic units on a 3+, and boosting to S7 means that I'm inflicting twice as many force weapon wounds on a wraithknight as with a sword (wounding on 5's vs 6's). And as was pointed out earlier, S7 is great for vehicles too.

I really don't like swords on termies, I find it really shortchanges their innate CC ability and halberds or even falchions are cheap enough to justify taking instead.

It doesn't really matter, as a GK player you'll likely win all of your games no matter which weapon you choose.

SGTPozy wrote:
It doesn't really matter, as a GK player you'll likely win all of your games no matter which weapon you choose.

We arent talking about last year's Grey Knights anymore. GK right now are a very low tier army.

Best to ignore him, he seems to pop into every GK related thread he can find just to keep spreading his own personal bitterness against GK.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily say GK are low tier, but they're definitely not top tier.

Indeed. It feels a lot like the old daemon hunter's codex, if that codex actually had some competitive options.

Calm down guys, GKs are very competitive, if you cannot win with them you are clearly playing them wrong. How are they low tier? By that logic, so are SM and SW.

Gotta love how people know who I am

"I am SGTPozy; feared by all GK players!"

They're competitive, but they're well below Eldar, Tau, , Vanilla marines, and Spesss Puppies.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Best to ignore him, he seems to pop into every GK related thread he can find just to keep spreading his own personal bitterness against GK.

I seem to have a fan.

My point stands, and out of experience. Unless you ally (and the permutations of that are too varied to really gauge the final level of competetiveness), GK by themselves do struggle in a meta dominated by most factions having ample access to low AP firepower while the GKs themselves lack this, as well as long range firepower. Short of spamming NDKs and Stormravens, the GK player's best hope is to engage the enemy in cc, as he is otherwise outshot by most armies. And reliance on cc automatically puts you at a disadvantage as you're in an edition dominated by shooting.

But as for Halberds of Falchions.

Halberds on special weapon Terminators would be best, so you don't invest too many points on one model.

Falchions on PAGK Justicars are nice if they get challenged out for whatever reason, because even if they have a hammer, if they're getting challenged they will probably die before I1 comes up.

But the rest comes down to taste. Halberd gives more versatility in the range of targets you can threaten, I've taken down a Imperial Knight with 8 Termies on the charge, but that was well above average rolling. The resulting explosions did kill 5 of them though. Goddamn that Magos IK.

I've been seeing GK/IH do well.

GK:
Libby
10 Purifiers
5 Strikers
5 Strikers
10 Interceptors
2 DKs
Draigo

IH:
Smashfether (no bike)
5 Tac marines /Drop Pod
Centurion Devastator Squad

Give the drop pod to the Purifiers for an alpha strike, send the Cents with Draigo, Smashfether, and the libby as a deathstar, and the troops/DKs as a second line.

Unfortunately a unit cannot start the game embarked in another's dedicated transport. Those purifiers would need SW allies for that.

Duly noted. I have some people to "talk to" (yell at) in my local meta.

The Draigostar still works, you can just turn the IH detachment into a CAD and grab an extra tac squad.