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Let's say my unit of crisis suits fire at some orks. Some of the suits have twin linked flamers and some of the suits have normal flamers. Do they fire at the same time or seperately? It makes a big difference with template weapons!

They fire them separately, as they have different profiles.

How best to explain this problem again, because the answer is 'As close as we get to simultaneous in a system that forbids such.'

Step 3 we are informed to select a group of Weapons to fire based on their Name, we do not have permission to use any other criteria. As there is no weapon named Twin-Linked Flamer, twin-linking a weapon simply adds the Twin Linked Special Rule to an existing Weapon's profile, we do not have permission to treat these weapons as different named Weapons. Therefore we resolve both of these weapons 'simultaneously' during Step 4 - 6, and it is at Step 6 we encounter instructions telling us to create Pools based on the criteria of Special Rules.

I want to review something before I continue, but Step 3 informs us how to select Weapon Groups so we use those instructions to select which weapons are being fired.

Now heres another scenario... how about a tact squad with a flamer and a combi-flamer?

Do Flamers and Combi-Weapons, of any flavor, have identical names?

You fire all Template weapons at the same time.

Did no one check the "Multiple Templates" rule?

peirceg wrote:
Let's say my unit of crisis suits fire at some orks. Some of the suits have twin linked flamers and some of the suits have normal flamers. Do they fire at the same time or seperately? It makes a big difference with template weapons!

You fire them all at the same time, but all you need to do is differentiate the TL flamer's hits with different colored dice so you can roll them all ta once, then reroll the TL flamer's dice.

Though I highly doubt people are going to flip a table if you roll the TL flamer dice seperate just to make it easier to keep track, if you don't have different sets of colored dice. At this point, it's all nit pick.

Ahh cheers guys. missed the multiple template rule.

I will review that Rule but I was sure they would be referring to Weapon Groups which have multiple Templates within them.
For if we have not selected the Combi-Flamer as the weapon being fired, how would a Rule found on that weapon profile trigger?

If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal

Are you sure that applies between weapon types? I thought that rule was just to describe specifically what happens when you fire multiple of the same type of template weapon.

Does it say "when firing multiple identical template weapons"? Or does it say "when firing template weapons"?

There's your answer.

I can make arguments for both sides depending entirely on how one determines 'shots being fired by the Unit.'

As it is late and I am tired and have to focus on other things just consider this:
All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.
- Step 3, Choose a Weapon

Is this the moment where we create 'shots' with the Shooting Sequence?
Are Shots, from a weapon that has not yet been named, being fired during this resolution?
If the Multiple Template Rule triggers on "firing more then one Shot...."

 troa wrote:
Does it say "when firing multiple identical template weapons"? Or does it say "when firing template weapons"?

There's your answer.

 grendel083 wrote:
You fire all Template weapons at the same time.

Did no one check the "Multiple Templates" rule?

Oh wow i had indeed never read the Rule as such:
"If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll To Wound as normal."

The "Multiple Templates" rule only calls out "shot(s) with the Template type" that "a unit is firing". My Flamer + Heavy Flamer Squads are going to like this!

Except your unit isn't firing the template weapon "heavy flamer" until you reach that weapon group; while firing weapon group "flamer" you cannot be doing so. Ergo this rule does not change the basic shooting rule if weapon groups.

When firing a combi flamer you are firing a flamer.

So to you, "If a unit is firing" is restricted to Step 3-5?

It seems too "general" to apply only to a few steps. Step 3 is "Select a Weapon", but a "firing Unit" sounds a lot more like Step 1: "Nominate Unit to Shoot".

Not asserting, just asking?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also,"If a weapon can fire in more than one mode, or can fire more than one type of ammo, select a weapon mode/ammo type – treat weapons firing different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons."

the "different mode" of the combi-flamer has to be treated as a different named weapon to the "standard" flamer from the above?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except your unit isn't firing the template weapon "heavy flamer" until you reach that weapon group; while firing weapon group "flamer" you cannot be doing so. Ergo this rule does not change the basic shooting rule if weapon groups.

If that were the case, then this rule does exactly nothing.
If you follow the rule, but fire them in groups instead, you end up with the normal sequence. Nothing changed, rules done nothing.
However, the rule calls out all templates, not groups of templates.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except your unit isn't firing the template weapon "heavy flamer" until you reach that weapon group; while firing weapon group "flamer" you cannot be doing so. Ergo this rule does not change the basic shooting rule if weapon groups.

If that were the case, then this rule does exactly nothing.
If you follow the rule, but fire them in groups instead, you end up with the normal sequence. Nothing changed, rules done nothing.
However, the rule calls out all templates, not groups of templates.

Well, no, it does separate each shot from a group. So even if (Burna Boys) you have 10 of the exact same flamer, this rule will split the 10 shots as laying down 10 templates. As opposed to placing 1 template and counting 10 hits or any other method you might think of.

So even if it only applies to "groups" of the same Template weapon as Nos says, the rule will split up those shots (do something).

As my previous post says though, "If a unit is firing" being a rule calling out shots/firing of a Unit, it seems much more relevant to Step 1 than it does Step 3 (where you're down to weapons/ weapon groups and no longer "Units" firing)

It is still a unit firing, just part of one. Rule still operates correctly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is still a unit firing, just part of one. Rule still operates correctly.

But where in this: "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type" is there any specification that it applies to Step 1 or Step 3?
Since step 1 the Unit is firing?
In step 3, only some weapons are firing, not "a unit", or so it seems at the moment for me.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Well, no, it does separate each shot from a group. So even if (Burna Boys) you have 10 of the exact same flamer, this rule will split the 10 shots as laying down 10 templates. As opposed to placing 1 template and counting 10 hits or any other method you might think of.

That's still what you do in the standard shooting sequence.
Work out all your hits before rolling To Wound.

And there's still the issue of the rule calling out ALL templates in the unit, not some.
They still form seperate wound pools due to different Str and/or AP.

Not to throw Fuel on the fire, but are not Flamers, Twin-Linked Flamers and Combi-Flamer three Different Weapons?
Flamer [Template, S4, AP5, Assault-1]
Twin-Linked Flamer [Template, S4, AP5, Assault-1, Twin-Linked]
Combi-Flamer [Template, S4, AP5, Assault-1, One Shot]

 Anpu42 wrote:
Not to throw Fuel on the fire, but are not Flamers, Twin-Linked

Yes they are.

We're just debating if the "Multiple Templates" rule means you must fire ALL template weapons at the same time, or separately.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Well, no, it does separate each shot from a group. So even if (Burna Boys) you have 10 of the exact same flamer, this rule will split the 10 shots as laying down 10 templates. As opposed to placing 1 template and counting 10 hits or any other method you might think of.

That's still what you do in the standard shooting sequence.
Work out all your hits before rolling To Wound.

And there's still the issue of the rule calling out ALL templates in the unit, not some.
They still form seperate wound pools due to different Str and/or AP.

As much as my reading of this would agree more with what you say rather than Nos, the "all" from the rule can refer to "all" the flamers described in the phrase right before it, not "all" flamer anywhere on the board (or all of the ones from the Unit).

Which, IMHO brings us back round to deciding what "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type" applies to.

I find it hard to read it as "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type (Of the weapon name "combi-flamer")"
rather than "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type (during the shooting phase)"

It's not the best worded rule, I can see it being read either way.

Personally, if it doesn't apply to all template weapons, then the rule doesn't do anything. You still work out all hits before moving onto wounds anyway. So why include it?

Because the standard step 4 is roll to hit at the same time, roll all To Hit dice in a bunch. If instead you put down a template, instinctively you put down 1 Template and count 10 hit per model.

The rule is there to split up each shot. In terms of Boltguns, this Rule is asking you to roll each To Hit roll 1 by 1 until they are "all" done, and move to To Wound.

Seeing both sides (Rule applies to ALL templates - by mentioning "Unit" and "firing") or (Rule comes in at Step 4 to split up the shots of "all" those combi-flamers - BvA the conflict is specifically this method at Step 3) i really don't know.

Maybe more input / views on this might help?

 BlackTalos wrote:
instinctively you put down 1 Template and count 10 hit per model.

I'll have to disagree with that. You violate the template rule straight away - "Place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model"
If you have more than one firing model, you'd place a template for each firing model, touching the base of the firing model each time. To have your second or third template only touching the first firing models base would break this rule.

Instinctively I'd place a template for each firing model, meeting the templace placement rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is still a unit firing, just part of one. Rule still operates correctly.

But where in this: "If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type" is there any specification that it applies to Step 1 or Step 3?
Since step 1 the Unit is firing?
In step 3, only some weapons are firing, not "a unit", or so it seems at the moment for me.

At step 1, the unit isnt firing a template weapon. As you havent yet nominated a weapon group. The unit is firing, undefined.

Typical GW to not consider the mixed case, of course, but there is still no way to apply it to step one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
At step 1, the unit isnt firing a template weapon. As you havent yet nominated a weapon group. The unit is firing, undefined.

Typical GW to not consider the mixed case, of course, but there is still no way to apply it to step one.

Would the Weapons being Selected at Step 3 be "Weapons of the Template type" following the Multiple Templates rule? Because if it is this way than you would Satisfy the entirety of Multiple Templates Rule

1: Nominate unit containig Flamer, Twin-linked Flamer, Heavy Flamer
2: Nominate Target
3: Select Flamer Triggering Multiple Templates Rule that allows all Template Type weapons to fire
4: Tally Hits as directed by Multiple Templates
5: Roll to wound

This is just my understanding of the rules being discussed here.

Except only the flamers May Fire, as per the main rule. Unless your rule specifically overrides that, you're stuck.