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Trasvi wrote:YES IT DOES IF YOU DON'T WHINE ABOUT GW YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND BE KILLED WITH FIRE

Please don't make spam posts, shout and insult other users. Further occurrences will lead to moderator action.

Trasvi wrote:YES IT DOES IF YOU DON'T WHINE ABOUT GW YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND BE KILLED WITH FIRE

what....?

Please don't make spam posts.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I just love the fact that GW can colour Maelstrom with the 'internet freeloaders' brush when they are far, far more than an online shopping kart.

But at the core of the problem is this: they're "far, far more than an online shopping cart"...for the United Kingdom. They do nothing that 'supports the gaming community' outside of the region they are based in.

It's the same thing with The Warstore, Wayland, or any other storefront which also has an online retail branch. They're funneling a ton of money into the community that they're based in--but most of that money is coming from outside of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does cause a bit of cries of "Unfair! Unfair! Unfair!" from the other local retailers.

I will agree with you though, "internet freeloaders" was completely uncalled for and it was very clearly a kneejerk response coming from Wells.

They have supported nothing
We have shops closing down, moving them to one man stores, no Games Day until this year in fact, hell they even make their own employees pay to go, I don't even think they support tournaments
the hobby in Australia as far as I can understand it supported itself
GW did nothing other than have stores which sold overpriced goods

What I've never understood is that why do you pay about 75% more? Cost to ship it there? Worse off economy? Surely there has to be a reason, even an inane absurd one but still one none the less!

Ok, this is nuts.

It saddens me to see that the level of thought and understanding on economic matters in this thread is not even past a 1st year university standard.

Few things about general economic pricing principles and actuarial pricing techniques (I am an Actuary by trade... so I feel a little more comfortable talking about the basics in this space).

First Issue:
"Wages are higher in Australia therefore they should pay more"

Ok, where should I start with this. On even the most basic on levels this doesn't pass the no arbitrage (the law of one price) assumption that underpins the arguments that people are using, this in actuality is a market distortion, it in definition is putting the Aust market out of equilibrium with other markets. This is not a validation of GW's actions, merely a statement of the analysis that has preceeded my post in general.

Beyond that, looking at average wage is a horribly biased way to look at available discretionary spending. It forgets such massive issues as demographics (who is buying this product, cost of living - being one of the highest and 3 of the highest cities in the world, median and modal income and most importantly the availability of substitutes).

To use these measures is to, IMO, totally miss the point of the situation. This would in fact be 100% illegal inside the EU, or in different states in the USA or even in Australia itself. It's deviousness is the implementation.

2nd Issue:
"Online stores do nothing for the game outside their own country"

Ok, this to me is false. The largest group of enthusiasts are gamers themselves. You DO NOT need a LGS to help the game (not saying that this isn't important or nice, just not reality). A very large proportion of gamers play games with their friends, which GASP, doesn't happen generally at gaming stores.

By artificially increasing the price of an area, you are in essence reducing the number of people that are willing to buy the product itself. This is basic economics (and as far as I can tell no one is denying that).

But to say that 'gamers' that buy from the online stores (which is what is required if you are saying that online stores do nothing to promote the hobby) is quite obviously false. All of the gamers that do not participate or are in other words priced out of the hobby now and in the future are denied the opportunity of aiding the hobby.

This is a really simplified understanding of just some of the opportunity cost of loosing this access.

3rd Issue:
"It will work, IE the price distortion will remain"

Ok, this is a little harder to lead through. But in essence, all efficient market theorems have a basic level of no arbitrage in them (the law of one price) with distortions and embargoes such as this causing modifications to the theory. The problem with this is the assumption that people will not have access to these prices in Australia and other regions outside the Eurozone in the first place. GW has ZERO ability to control sale on eBay. Also, there is now a huge incentive for people to come and play in this space and make a larger profit due to the price distortions that in the will make this even harder for the embargo itself to exist.

4th Issue:
Australian law will allow this.

This is in essence a monopolistic device that is being used to restrict access and control prices of world wide distribution channels in Australia. On a basic level the ACCC (Australian Price watchdog for those overseas) does not take too kindly to this.

Itunes got in huge trouble over this lately (and are being monitored) but what made it harder to enforce was the online nature of the 'merchandise'. I doubt that GW will have the same love from them.

5th Issue:
"Wages are higher in Australia than overseas"

This actually should have very little impact on the price of a product in the market unless there were restrictions like market based pricing mechanisms. There should be some impact in a perfect world (like how there should be no such thing as free shipping as postage does cost both time and money, but it does exist).

In reality, these costs are what drive business decisions to how many stores they place and the profitability of those stores. This also explains why the average number of staff at GS in Australia has dropped (but I think this is the same worldwide, so most likely is uncorrelated).

6th Issue:
"The price differences are due to distortions in the currency market"

Well... WOW! Sorry guys, if anyone thinks that these exchange rates are temporary and GW is doing the right thing long term and pricing Australian merchandise at historical standards is the correct idea, never try and work in the real world. Sure, short term, I understand their thoughts, prices cannot change every couple months.

But the irony is that they change prices every other month, so exchange rates (and swap agreements, derivatives and linked bonds) are not the thing that is stopping GW changing it's prices. Time and time again they show that they are advese to any regular marketing theory (tell me another major retail company in the world that never does sales yet knows it's own product is sold cheaper down the road).



7th Issue:
"Why Not?"

Forgeworld is a really good example of this on a very similar product. And the argument has been made before. If this logic makes sense here, then the logic would transfer over in the same fashion. This would imply that the country your computer is in at the time determines the mark up they are willing to slug you with... total nonsense.

Final Word:
GW continually baffle me with their backward thinking and the longterm strategies to maximise the short term to the total detriment of the long term. This is another one of those things. To say that prices 'should' be different and still be 'efficient' is just a fallacy. That is the definition of a market that is out of equilibrium. Just astounds me that this actually needs to be said, on this forum and to GW itself.

Kurgash, two reasons:

First, GW is greedy. I am not trying to pick on GW nor am I going to apologize for them. I could drone on for paragraphs of why this is and why its ok or not, but at the end of the day they are a company who wants to do a 40% return on investment and the only way to do that is get greedy and play hardball, they are NOT the gw of the mid 80's and 90's.

Secondly:
Take a look at that chart. GBP VS AUD

Two and a half years ago GW's investment in the operations of Australian stores, warehousing staff etc was roughly 2.5 Australian Dollars per 1.0 British Pounds. Since then the British economy has tanked like everyone else . Though the AUD has proven somewhat stable. So GW's "investment" or raw costs has increased roughly 35-40%? This is because the price is now 1.50 Aussie Dollars per 1.0 British Pound. The only way to keep the same level of profit was to close stores, move them to one man stores and other drastic measures.

I am speculating here because i do not know, but one other consideration may be that they do not have a Central Office in Australia like they do in the USA (now Memphis). This would mean that they cannot act independently to use AUD sales for some of the Australian costs he talks about in his facebook post. Everything has to be converted and they have been losing money hand over fist. Again this is speculation, i don't see any major gaps in GW's financial data available to the public to prove this.

What they are essentially trying to do is block maelstrom so they can recoup the cost, but as everyone has said they essentially signed their own death certificate. Do i think GW will pull out of Australia? no. Do i think in 3 years time GW will be re-structuring? yes and i don't think it will be pretty.

Just go to the GW investor site and pull up all the data going back to 2006, sales are down, not by alot but by enough that we all go WTF when price increase time comes around. This is how GW is still available to maintain a strong position with their investors. They push out new prices, some people quit, some people buy less models. For the people that buy less models though GW is still getting the same amount of money off of you they were getting before. Your just taking longer to put together a new army.

This is in essence a monopolistic device that is being used to restrict access and control prices of world wide distribution channels in Australia. On a basic level the ACCC (Australian Price watchdog for those overseas) does not take too kindly to this.

Sorry the ACCC is completely powerless to do anything about it, they dont have international juristiction, they can only attempt to enforce change within the bounds of australia.

If GW suddenly told australian stockists they can no longer sell their products, or forced them to raise prices to match their retail price, then sure... ACCC eat your heart out.

What it all boils down to is GW are saying pay our prices or don't have our product and unfortunatly there are two many people out there who will still buy at the new prices which means their marketing strategy has worked. This has happened repeatedley over the last few years... Sad, but true.

Mick

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Stuff

Huh? I think you have that backwards. The currency shift favours GW at all times. A weak dollar/pound is great for exporters.

Lets say GW used to sell a product for 25 AUD 3 years ago when the exchange rate was 2.5:1. That was the equivalent to selling it for 10 GBP. Now, they sell the same product for 25 AUD. They now make 16.67 GBP off that sale. Well actually, its more like 30 AUD and 20 GBP now with price hikes. Their ongoing costs (wages, rent) increased by the same ratio; so all other things being equal, the GW business in AUS should not have been effected.

I am aware that Australia 'got lucky' with the currency shifts. I am aware that GW is just 'bringing us back in line' so we don't 'take advantage'. I believe that our prices as % of wage are in line with other countries. I just feel personally insulted that GW, in one sentence acknowledged the currency shift, accused internet stores of free-riding and then denied us access to said stores. They accuse the internet retailers, when the real problem is their prices.

Like it or not, very few consumer products sold from B+M stores internationally continuously mirror the exact exchange rates. This applies for any industry. GW is not acting as an evil empire (in this particular case).The few products where this does apply have very tight competition.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
My concern is for Maelstrom and Wayland. Waylands 'acknowledgement' is sufficiently uninformative to make be believe they see a way around it. It doesn't seem fair for GW to suddenly turn to retailers and say 'Hey! you can sell half that amount, or none at all' on a product that must be a significant portion of their income.

I'm not liking this, how the manufacturers try to gouge the Australians. It's now just GW, it's Ralph Lauren, it's major clothing brands, it's electronic retailers,

It says something if it is significantly cheaper (50% or more) to buy and ship something from overseas than to buy locally... it's not the freight cost.

Australians in particular are getting gouged, pure and simple. We are seen as a closed, easy to exploit market that is susceptible to anti-competitive behaviour.


Time to start using freight forwarders but before that, time to get in on the sales. I can buy my kit at close to 50% off, and not having to pay shipping... I guess I'll have to buy enough to allow me to paint for a while without having to refresh and pay retail here.

Ridiculous.

/vent.

Kanluwen wrote:By "supporting" I mean the exact same qualifiers that GW does when it comes to shops.
A space for your customer base to play. Maelstrom cannot qualify for that, no international based retailer that isn't a chain can meet that criteria.

GW doesn't qualify for that, either. Most GW stores (at least the ones I've walked into) have at best a handful of 4x4 tables that are primarily for running demo games.


The simple fact is that yes, stores do help build the hobby by introducing the occasional person who wanders in off the street looking for Yu Gi Oh cards or video games to the wonderful world of gaming.

But online stores also build the community. Anything that results in more people owning more miniatures is building the gaming community.

Because, ultimately, the 'gaming community' isn't just those wargamers who like to play in stores.

Here's how GW supported independent retailers in my town. We had two. They had a reasonable amount of stock. One had a couple of tables to play on. Eventually, GW must have realised that there is enough sales in the area to support a GW store. They opened up in competition, and now those independent stores have dust on the little remaining stock. Really, it's GW that are the leaches getting the free ride. They let the independents build up the hobby in an area and then they swoop in and steal the business. That's one of the reasons I supported Maelstrom and Wayland over my local GW. Yes, the prices were a bonus to rub a little more salt in.

In any case, I was introduced to the game by my stepson. We used to play at a little community hall with a group of regulars, long before there was even a stockist here. The GW USA website was handy because it was the only one that had a decent online catalogue that we could use before calling the mail order trolls in Sydney. GW did virtually nothing to start or grow their hobby here.


Edit: I should add, I'm more angered by the Wells reply than I am about the announcement itself.

Edit again: Also, Black Tree Design has a 30% off + free shipping anywhere for premium members (code PREMIUM) at the moment. Just bought $50 of Dr Who minis. This money would have gone to GW if this policy hadn't been introduced.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:By "supporting" I mean the exact same qualifiers that GW does when it comes to shops.
A space for your customer base to play. Maelstrom cannot qualify for that, no international based retailer that isn't a chain can meet that criteria.

GW doesn't qualify for that, either. Most GW stores (at least the ones I've walked into) have at best a handful of 4x4 tables that are primarily for running demo games.


The simple fact is that yes, stores do help build the hobby by introducing the occasional person who wanders in off the street looking for Yu Gi Oh cards or video games to the wonderful world of gaming.

But online stores also build the community. Anything that results in more people owning more miniatures is building the gaming community.

Because, ultimately, the 'gaming community' isn't just those wargamers who like to play in stores.

@Insaniak: Exactly! Anything that will allow me to buy more miniatures will build my involvement in the community.

One can play with the army that one has, but I won't be satisfied with that! The whole point of this hobby is to allow so many avenues to expand... Of course it's your choice as to whether to quit now or just suck it up, but I know that many of us will only be slowed and not stopped...

LIve on Warhammer!!

GW throttle the hobby, not support it. Independent retailers broaden the horizons of what is available and are beneficial to the actual hobby. Selling more things to more people is the very definition of broadening the hobby.

Going by the reactions of those still supporting GW's latest decisions I hope the company does carry on as it will keep them well away from me...

Mick

Aspiring Champion wrote:Here's how GW supported independent retailers in my town. We had two. They had a reasonable amount of stock. One had a couple of tables to play on. Eventually, GW must have realised that there is enough sales in the area to support a GW store. They opened up in competition, and now those independent stores have dust on the little remaining stock. Really, it's GW that are the leaches getting the free ride. They let the independents build up the hobby in an area and then they swoop in and steal the business. That's one of the reasons I supported Maelstrom and Wayland over my local GW. Yes, the prices were a bonus to rub a little more salt in.

In any case, I was introduced to the game by my stepson. We used to play at a little community hall with a group of regulars, long before there was even a stockist here. The GW USA website was handy because it was the only one that had a decent online catalogue that we could use before calling the mail order trolls in Sydney. GW did virtually nothing to start or grow their hobby here.


Edit: I should add, I'm more angered by the Wells reply than I am about the announcement itself.

Edit again: Also, Black Tree Design has a 30% off + free shipping anywhere for premium members (code PREMIUM) at the moment. Just bought $50 of Dr Who minis. This money would have gone to GW if this policy hadn't been introduced.

Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Kilkrazy wrote:


Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Hmmm do you see this as the form of communication most likely to penetrate?

That's something I could bother to do. In May I've placed 4 orders with UK suppliers and spent zero on GW product.

If they are capable of understanding anything perhaps this is it.

Certainly all those Mantic undead and AoW Dwarves and a bunch of characters are clear analogues so they should get the point.

Naw, that means they'll just sue Mantic for IP infringment

Kalidane wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:


Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Hmmm do you see this as the form of communication most likely to penetrate?

That's something I could bother to do. In May I've placed 4 orders with UK suppliers and spent zero on GW product.

If they are capable of understanding anything perhaps this is it.

Certainly all those Mantic undead and AoW Dwarves and a bunch of characters are clear analogues so they should get the point.

I agree, I could do this easily.

The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

severedblue wrote:The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

I dont understand :'D

edited

If it is so expensive to do business in Australia ie. have shops, then its simple: close em all.

Games clubs and hobby stores have always been far better places to hang out and play.

In fact I think the hobby would be better off as local hobby shops would get more business, host tournaments etc.

GW don't support anything except their own shops, which are proxy child minding centers while the parents shop.

I suspect that the real reason behind all these price increases and ban on 3rd party internet sales is within the GW's CEO contract.

The more he gets sales up the better his stock options are as well as his golden handshake at the end.

Many a business has fallen to this method, time will tell.

LunaHound wrote:

severedblue wrote:The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

I dont understand :'D

Think about it. GW sink millions into the equipment, processes and expertise required to produce finecast miniatures. How will they recoup their costs?

By raising their prices. By closing loopholes to their market hegemony, such as shutting out discounting internet retailers.



They see the contrast of raising their prices against the good news of the finecast miniatures. They are betting that they won't lose too much customer base by playing good cop, bad cop and doing both the good and bad at the same time,

, praying to high heaven that the good will cancel out the bad
from a marketing perspective.

It's a common sales trick to present your most expensive item first, then your less expensive items last, to take advantage of the way the human mind views contrast.

It's cynical yes but GW isn't in the business of providing us a hobby, they are in the business of making money.
Time will tell whether they make themselves the ferrari of 28mm miniatures... and price themselves out of the market in the process....

Thing is, within a single county GW make the same or event MORE profit selling to internet retailers than they do selling the product themselves.
GW makes an item for $5, and sells to indie M for $15. M then sells to customers for $20, making $5 profit, minus cost of sale. GW makes $10 (or very near, as cost of sale to trade accounts is very low), no matter what the indie sells it for.
If GW makes and item for $5 and sells it themselves for $25, they make $20, minus cost of sale. Checking their investors reports, operating expenses are a little over 50% of sales per region, meaning they make very near $10!


It turns out that cost of operations in all regions (except Japan) is around 50% of revenue- continental Europe is highest at 54%, and Northern Europe is 48%.
This does mean that, without a corresponding increase in sales, the GW Australia business would be significantly crippled if prices were lowered to match current exchange rates, as their costs are not effected by exchange rate. But it does mean that they can provide to Australia significantly cheaper than they do now if they were willing to go to mail-order or independent only.

severedblue wrote:Think about it. GW sink millions into the equipment, processes and expertise required to produce finecast miniatures. How will they recoup their costs?
By raising their prices. By closing loopholes to their market hegemony, such as shutting out discounting internet retailers.

Only when other companies switch from metal to resin, they lower the prices because production got cheaper.
And last half year featured 6.7 million pound profit, of which 7.7 million pound were given as dividends. Profits are not for reinvestments.

Interesting reading… and make note of the statements made…

“We make things. We are a manufacturer. Not a retailer. We do have outlets in retail locations. We call these Games Workshop Hobby centres because they show customers how to engage with our hobby of collecting, painting and playing with our miniatures and games. They are the front end of our manufacturing business. If our Hobby centres do a great job, we will recruit lots of customers into our hobby and they will enjoy spending their money on the products we make.”

“The games are a key part of both our hobby and our business model. Our games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a club, a school), not with a screen. Our games are truly social and build a real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business sense. The more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to buy. This in turn allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all.”

GAMES WORKSHOP GROUP PLC Annual report 2010
CEO’s COMMENTARY Mark Wells CEO 26 July 2010

“As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.”

“In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centres and trade accounts.”

Generic Export Restriction Statement
Mark Wells Chief Executive 18 May 2011

Question… are there two people called Mark Wells at GW, coz to me, they are saying the exact opposite to each other

Mik

Just to add fuel to the GW hate, I saw this posted at Warseer in a thread about the possible decline of GW:

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp

- SGs are staying as metals

- most staff are going on training specifically to defend finecast+price rises+etc
Defence will be
- Australian cost of living is much higher
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close
- PP etc will soon increase prices
- resin detail is amaaazing
- reduced resin-metal price is offset by retooling, repackaging

Add vast amounts of salt if you like since this is as best 4th hand info. But if true this could have disturbing consequences.

Normally I would discount this as just pure anti GW ranting. But given GW's past history of controlling how their product is sold even going so far as to be illegal (online retailers were not required to remove their pictures and discounts from their site in the U.S. but a year latter the supreme court ruled in favor of this in regards to Disney products, thus making GW's crap legal) I would not be the least bit surprised if this could actually be a possibility.

severedblue wrote:We are seen as a closed, easy to exploit market that is susceptible to anti-competitive behaviour.

Judging purely based on what I've heard about the 40k tournament scene in Australia I'd say it's not far off the mark.

Hellfury wrote:Just to add fuel to the GW hate, I saw this posted at Warseer in a thread about the possible decline of GW:

...yeah...why does GW hate everyone so much? Is it a British thing?