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So, unless I know in advance that I'm playing some weird mission, I always like to roll with three units minimum that can park in one spot and shoot long range to make sure that I can hold three points on my side of the board. This is no-duh common sense.

Only problem is, after half a decade of being spoiled with fast attack baal predator slots, I sometimes have to get creative with what I'm using to do this, since it's very easy for me to allocated a couple of heavy slots to things like a Fire Raptor or Storm Ravens, and now I can't deploy three tanks without running a second detachment which either might not be an option or I can't afford the troop-HQ tax on.

So!

I'm going to list the non-heavy shooty units I like using to hold points on my side of the board, along with my thoughts on how effective they are, and I'd love to hear what you guys are personally using.

Scout Sniper squad: this is a no duh inclusion, since they're a troop choice, but I also feel like they're the weakest choice in my list. Since sniper rifles lost rending, I feel like giving them a missile launcher and having them pot shot vehicles is no longer an option, so they're ONLY anti-infantry. I feel like they never make their points back unless there are wraithlords / knights / c'tan walking around (my sniper squad did stellar against a nightbringer in a game against the new necrons dex last weekend), and also they'll get cut to ribbons if there isn't some cover for them to duck behind with camo cloaks

+troop choice
+good vs T8 monsters with bad armor saves

-rarely make their points back
-dependent on cover
-only anti-infantry


Shooty inquisitor squad: I've had a real soft spot for inquisitors since the 54mm scale game came out in 2000, so this is a fun squad for me to run, but it's also decently effective. The way I run it is Ordo Malleus Inquisitor w/ hell rifle, 3 heavy bolter servitors, 1 jokaero. That's 105 pts and is putting out firepower comparable to a predator tank. If I have points to spare I throw in a few acolytes w/ bolters for 5 pts each and / or make the inquisitor a lvl 1 psycher.

+roll well with the jokaero and the squad ends up with a 42" effective range or rending
+threatening against all targets
+somewhat cover dependent
+psycher option will help your librarians, and make the squad slightly nasty in hand to hand

-you're paying over 100 points for a tiny squad of dudes with T3. If your opponent can bring small arms to bear against them they'll be cut to ribbons



Vindicare Assassin: I haven't used this guy since 3rd edition, but I have two sitting around so shoot, I'm just looking for an excuse

+72" range!
+great vs vehicles and characters

-worthless vs hordes
-cover dependent
-any S8 or higher attack can one shot him, too frail for 150pts?


Damoclese Command Rhino: I've never used one of these either, but I'm building one right now, so man, I can't wait to give it a try. I feel like its orbital strike could single handedly make back its 75 points, and then shoot, you've got a free box that contests a point, can maybe pew-pew a dude or two with its storm bolter, and gives you +1/-1 to your reserve rolls (you're a blood angel, you've probably got something deep striking or flying in). Also the no scatter w/i 12" thing could help if you're deep striking onto your side of the board or if you decide to rush the thing forward for some reason.

+can be completely concealed and still get off one major shot
+helps with reserves

-75pts for armor 11
-if that one orbital shot whiffs, you've basically got a model that can't fight


Shooty dreadnought - does anyone run these with two guns to good effect ever? they just seem so lightly armored / weak at shooting compared to an equally costed tank. I ran a flesh tearer list where everything was armor 12 or armor 13. I fought a 30k mechanicus army, and won, and used a lascannon / power fist dread to hang back and shoot and support my tanks. I feel like in that instance it worked well because my opponent was so overwhelmed with armored targets. That was a very specific build though. I don't think these guys would ever work in normal lists.


Shooty terminators - lol, j/k guys


Thoughts, people???

Imperial Knight Paladin.

2 large S8 AP blasts at 72" on a fast, tough, choppy platform, with the ability to ping multiple targets for assault independent of where it drops its pie-plates.

Pew Pew Stomp Stomp Stomp!

SJ

No way dude, knights aren't even close to worth their points if they're not getting into hand to hand, and if they're getting into hand to hand then they ain't keeping the objectives on your side of the board on lock.

What you say about armor saturation holds for a few other things as well. One target is just going to eat a lascannon and die, but if you field 6, you get much better results. A lot of “light” vehicles only work because there are more important things on the table that need to be shot.

For example, I’m quite fond of TML/HB speeders. I think you can get those as BA, could be wrong. A pair of them is only 150 points, and puts 4 missiles and 6 HB shots pretty much anywhere you need them. Fragile? Yup, although they have the speed to stay away from some threats and can always jink. But for a FA pick, they have a reasonable amount of firepower. But I’d not field them without other armor on the table, even if it’s just rhinos.

Another thing to consider if you want to hold a piece of ground is to slap a building down on it. Some of the fortifications are reasonably tough and have a few guns on them.

Also forgot to add vengeance weapon batteries to my first list.

The quad icarus lascannon batteries were a staple of my army in 6th, but kinda aren't worth it in 7th with the skyfire/interceptor nerf.
I feel like they SHOULD be worth their points with a battlecannon at 85, considering that they should still be decent at hitting stuff even at BS2 considering it's a pie plate, and does decent damage against any target that doesn't have a 2+ sv, but for some reason they just never work out for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
What you say about armor saturation holds for a few other things as well. One target is just going to eat a lascannon and die, but if you field 6, you get much better results. A lot of “light” vehicles only work because there are more important things on the table that need to be shot.

For example, I’m quite fond of TML/HB speeders. I think you can get those as BA, could be wrong. A pair of them is only 150 points, and puts 4 missiles and 6 HB shots pretty much anywhere you need them. Fragile? Yup, although they have the speed to stay away from some threats and can always jink. But for a FA pick, they have a reasonable amount of firepower. But I’d not field them without other armor on the table, even if it’s just rhinos.

Another thing to consider if you want to hold a piece of ground is to slap a building down on it. Some of the fortifications are reasonably tough and have a few guns on them.

I LOVE deep striking my twin melta speeder. I def wanna get more (also in love with that forgeworld speeder that has AV11 and can zoom, it's only 90pts, which is a bargain for all the crap it comes with).
Everyone for some reason creams their pants over spamming deep striking triple melta assault squads for 135 pts or w/e, and I can't figure out why for the life of me, like shoot fine, you're going to get three melta shots on a vehicle that MIGHT kill it or on a monstrous creature that MIGHT bring it down to half strength. Great. Then what are five marines going to do? Die. At least the speeder can jink so MAYBE it'll survive, and it can zoom to some objective the next turn. Only 80pts too, for two multi-melta shots.

I like the idea of using buildings, I've just gotten such terrible results with my vengeance batteries in 7th, and any other building needs a unit to occupy it, so you're back to using sniper scouts or devastators, one of which kinda sucks and one of which takes up a heavy.

 Walnuts wrote:
No way dude, knights aren't even close to worth their points if they're not getting into hand to hand, and if they're getting into hand to hand then they ain't keeping the objectives on your side of the board on lock.

You, sir, have no clue on what you speak of. Also, if you actually read my post, you would have noted I referenced it's CC abilities twice (three times, if you count the "Stomp Stomp Stomp" line).

SJ

Nevelon turned me on to TML/HB speeders and I must say they are pretty nice for 75 pts. Also, never forget that you can also take the TLLC Razorback for 85 pts. It gives you a Fast lascannon on a fairly survivable platform. You can even stuff a squad of Marines in it if you want.

I second the TML/HB land speeders. Krak missiles got better in 7th because AP 1/2 got worse

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
No way dude, knights aren't even close to worth their points if they're not getting into hand to hand, and if they're getting into hand to hand then they ain't keeping the objectives on your side of the board on lock.

You, sir, have no clue on what you speak of. Also, if you actually read my post, you would have noted I referenced it's CC abilities twice (three times, if you count the "Stomp Stomp Stomp" line).

SJ

Gotta agree here. My pally has easily paid for himself many times with his cannon in the first two rounds. The fact that he's still usually alive and ready to give some unlucky squad the boot is just icing.

I will agree with him though that it's probably better to have the thing closing in on a melee target while it fires, instead of standing backfield.

Man, what kind of armies are you guys fighting where battle cannons are just racking up the kills for you guys? Tons of dense footslogging MEQs with lots of unnecessary upgrades? I use basic leman russes (2 battle cannon shots at bs3 for 300pts) and vengeance weapon batteries (2 battle cannon shots at bs2 for 170 pts) and they never kill anything, so to me the idea of dropping 370 pts to get two bs4 battle cannon shots is insane

I only recommended the Paladin because the OP was asking about long range non-heavy slot fire power, to which Paladins fit like a gem. If the goal is vehicle/TEQ popping, I'd have recommended the Errant.

SJ

Eeesh, and that thing is an extra five points and 24" range? Still not seeing either of those knights as being near worth the points for just defensive shooting.

36 inch range melta large blast .... Oh yeah. I have wrecked face with that thing.

Alright, that's a lil better, but still, for 375 pts, if we're just talking about holding objectives on your side of the board, not combat in general, and using models that aren't heavy support choices, for 350 pts I could drop a Typhon using up a lord of war slot, and that thing has 14 armor all the way around (albeit no force field) and drops a S10 AP1 7" pie plate at 48" range. Way better than a knight.

 Walnuts wrote:
Eeesh, and that thing is an extra five points and 24" range? Still not seeing either of those knights as being near worth the points for just defensive shooting.

The melta variant is 370, and has one stubber while the two battlecannon/two stubber one is 375. It's probably 5pts more expensive because it has an extra heavy stubber, or atleast that's probably the GW logic.

 Walnuts wrote:
Eeesh, and that thing is an extra five points and 24" range? Still not seeing either of those knights as being near worth the points for just defensive shooting.

Your lack of faith is disturbing. <queues heavy breathing through a scuba mask>

Who said anything about standing still? I'll repeat, since reading seems to be a challenge:

The OP Asked For A Non-Heavy Long Range Firepower Option.

It's the title of the thread. The Knight Paladin is a non-heavy selection long range firepower platform that also has 6HP, is functionally immune to vehicle damage table rolls, has a decent Invul save versus range attacks, and is a beast in CC versus MCs, vehicles, and horde. You might not think it is worth 375 points, yet the rest of us are pretty united on it being correctly costed for its abilities. Also, 375 points is within the same range of points of the other options available fitting the same non-heavy long range firepower (~350pts).

SJ

Not trying to be rude, Jeff, but I think you're the one lacking reading comprehension. Yes, the subject just says non-heavy long range firepower, but the body explains that it's to hold objectives on my side of the board, so the model can't be stomping around.

If all I wanted was long range non heavy shooting full stop, I could load up on speeders, but those are rubbish for holding points on your side of the board since they're best used via deep strike and then zipping around your opponent's side of the board.

 Walnuts wrote:
Not trying to be rude, Jeff, but I think you're the one lacking reading comprehension. Yes, the subject just says non-heavy long range firepower, but the body explains that it's to hold objectives on my side of the board, so the model can't be stomping around.

If all I wanted was long range non heavy shooting full stop, I could load up on speeders, but those are rubbish for holding points on your side of the board since they're best used via deep strike and then zipping around your opponent's side of the board.

TML/HB speeder are not designed for deep strike.

Really? I always assumed those things existed to strip hull points off light rear armor. How do you use em?

Flit around your own backfield. In an ideal world, you stay behind cover, limiting who has LOS to you. Keep out of range of small arms, so anything shooting at you is dedicated anti-tank (which is then not shooting your dreads, preds, rhinos, or other armored targets) Use your mobility to get side shots on tanks. With directional wound allocation, you can also flank troops and try to snipe heavy weapons off the sides of squads.

They put out decent firepower for their points, but aren’t so scary they draw a lot of fire. They just keep tossing fire downrange, and can reposition when needed.

 Walnuts wrote:
Not trying to be rude, Jeff, but I think you're the one lacking reading comprehension. Yes, the subject just says non-heavy long range firepower, but the body explains that it's to hold objectives on my side of the board, so the model can't be stomping around.

If all I wanted was long range non heavy shooting full stop, I could load up on speeders, but those are rubbish for holding points on your side of the board since they're best used via deep strike and then zipping around your opponent's side of the board.

Oh, I read the body of the post, and see no issue with my suggestion. Knights score, just like everything else. Knights are also excellent count-charge units, and can easily take care of their quarter of the table with minimal support. Indeed, unlike other possible units filling the same role, Knights can succeed at multiple roles as needed. And from a Blood Angel point of view, what fits better than a giant Bolter and giant Chainsword armed giant "Marine" dominating the back nine?

If the question was one of super-assaulty, TEQ/MC/Tank busting non-FoC unit, I'd have recommended a Knight Errant due to its Thermal Cannon, D-Sword, and much shorter effective range dictating the need to get it stuck in faster.

But whatever, pick your own poison.

SJ

Martel732 wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Not trying to be rude, Jeff, but I think you're the one lacking reading comprehension. Yes, the subject just says non-heavy long range firepower, but the body explains that it's to hold objectives on my side of the board, so the model can't be stomping around.

If all I wanted was long range non heavy shooting full stop, I could load up on speeders, but those are rubbish for holding points on your side of the board since they're best used via deep strike and then zipping around your opponent's side of the board.

TML/HB speeder are not designed for deep strike.

Not to mention, why would you deep strike a Fast model with a long range weapon in the first place? The TML speeder is best used weaving in and out of cover.

A combination of hitting back armor and guaranteeing you won't be shot down turn 1, casval, and considering how easy it is for blood angels to re-roll their reserves, they can pretty reliably hit the deck turn two.

That stated, I totally see the merits of deploying them normally, and genuinely want to pick some up right now.

This is the exact sort of idea I was hoping this thread would discuss, so thanks martel





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

And from a Blood Angel point of view, what fits better than a giant Bolter and giant Chainsword armed giant "Marine" dominating the back nine?

If the question was one of super-assaulty, TEQ/MC/Tank busting non-FoC unit, I'd have recommended a Knight Errant due to its Thermal Cannon, D-Sword, and much shorter effective range dictating the need to get it stuck in faster.

But whatever, pick your own poison.

SJ

Totally feel ya on this Jeff, that's why my one knight is a lancer from House Hawkshroud, painted with a yellow body and red 'helmet' (to contrast nicely with my blood angel forces), and with a blood angel symbol on one of his pauldrons (a very hawkshroudy thing to have).

Still think the best use for knights is stomping forward as fast as possible.

Imho, best strategy for dealing with melee dudes in your deployment zone is to not let them get there in the first place, or if you have to countercharge, do it with dudes in storm ravens.

Stormravens die to Intercept too easily, and have a tough time delivering their cargo before dying, as has been my experience using them with my Grey Knights. Might be my local meta, though.

I'm finding that the best use for Knights is hunting units afraid of dealing with Knights. It's the old "shoot the choppies, chop the shooties" thing, cranked to 11. Literally, if they think they can beat your Knight with a specific unit, avoid that unit. But if they avoid your Knight, chase them down and dump pie-plates on them. This means supporting your Knight(s) with appropriate counter-assault units, which Blood Angels have in spades.

SJ

Yeah, I think my local meta is dif than a lot of your local metas, because I've literally never once seen anyone other than myself field even a single unit with skyfire or interceptor, literally never seen anyone field more than two fliers of their own, most people don't even use one, and I managed to play through an entire 8 round league using two quad-Icarus vengeance batteries without them shooting down a single dang thing, so as far as I'm concerned, interceptor might as well not even exist, and flyers are survivable.
Played and won a game against necrons recently where my storm raven was glanced to death by volume of fire, but that was after half his army shooting at it for half the game during which it let a dreadnought assault, a mephstar assault TWICE, shot down a monolith, and few warriors. Not bad at all as far as I'm concerned.

The Land Speeder variant you DS is the double Multi-Melta of Heavy Flamer one (the latter is better with some kind of guiding help, like a teleport beacon from a drop pod)

Yeah, I've got a double MM landspeeder. I like throwing him in my list when I've got less than 100 pts to play around with so another tank or assault squad isn't an option, but maaaan, lemme tell ya something, I've been chucking 1s to hit with landspeeder multimeltas since the late 90s, and I'm getting pretty sick and tired of it, so it's one of those units I like on paper, and regularly recommend, but will never go out of my way to field myself.

I don't know if you remember how land speeders worked in 3rd edition, but basically you got once chance to dash forward with the thing and melta one enemy vehicle, and then there was a 100% chance it would get shot down the following turn because vehicles were that frail.

Also, if you rolled a few hundred dice over the course of your game, while about 17% of them would come up 1, there was a 100% chance that one die you chucked for that one multimelta shot would be 1.
Every. Dang. Time.

I just played in a big guns never tire tournament, so I tried to use zero heavies, to not give up any VPs, so I used my MM speeder to compensate for some of my lack of heavy firepower.
He'll do fine for me on the deep strike, I said to myself, I can't regularly miss with BOTH MM shots, right? Chucked snake eyes two turns in a row first game. That took me back.

Cheer's @Walnuts that gave me a giggle and deja-vu all at once.
I stopped using or upgrading single MM's for year's now because of stuff like that.
I think the land speeder's with the typhoon and heavy bolter suffice though TBH. Unless of course you happen to be going knight hunting.

haha, dude, kryczek, the struggle