Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I have had this game for years, but just noticed something last night. On the box cover the marines in the foreground, are carrying a flag with none other than the Fire Wasps symbol on it.



I know its hard to make out, but I got the biggest image I could find on the internets. For those that don't know, the Fire Wasps were a Titan Order, the ones to the right of the box cover as a matter of fact. The traiter Death Heads to the left. The Fire Wasp is shown on some of the titans on the side of the boxes. Actually, I just realized the Titans have the same flag on their backs on the cover right under the U.





Anyway, I guess I always assumed these were Blood Angels of some other generic Space Marine army (I was under the impression that in the early years, there were more Chapters than the initial 20 but I guess I can be wrong on that). But then I got to thinking that the Titan Legions game came with rules for the Tech Guard, who were basically Imperial Guard troops assigned to the Titan Orders. So then I was wondering, could you justify Marines being assigned to the Titan Orders?

Even though Space Marine v1 was AT's sister game, it was released a year or so after AT. The rules for Land Raiders, Infantry, and so on that are even shown in the bottom lid, showed up in White Dwarf before that. But at one point AT was just a standalone game, and the background of the Horus Heresy was still being forged.

So how would you take this? I guess you would have to dump everything fluff-wise from GW the last 15 years, but if you look how the marines are presented on the covers, one being red and the other in black, they sync up with the main colors of the two Orders fighting it out on the cover. You could argue that one is the Blood Angels and the other the Sons of Horus, but I am not even sure both were defined by that time. Well, maybe the Blood Angels in Rogue Trader (if they are), but I doubt the Sons of Horus.

Anyway, I just kind of find this facsinating. Kind of opens up the early days of the 40k universe when everything hadn't been sorted out yet. And I have a ton of those v1 Epic Space Marines sitting around, so I thought I would go ahead and paint them up as both armies on the box.

While they were not fleshed out, Rogue Trader had "some" of the material for most of the main Chapters, and some others, although Dark Angels were still just using black armor back then and more of the material like the Deathwing and Ravenwing didn't some around 'till 2nd edition, unless it was in White Dwarf issues and/or/compendiums in the time just before 2nd edition.

Mostly it was just colors and insignias for them, at that point they were mostly just variations of the same thing when it came to Chapters. Going through the rulebok I couldn;t find much about the Heresy other than a vague outline of what happened. I don't think the fallen legions are even mentioned till 2nd edition.

Ok the Sons of Horus is mentioned in the section covering the Horus Heresy in the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook, so they were around then. Still doesnt explain why marines would be carrying around the Fire Wasp banner.

That is strange, undoubtedly. If it wasn't for the backpacks being so definitely being Rogue Trader-era powerpacks, I would want to think they were Imperial Army, because you don't see any other details of them other than a couple of studded shoulderpads and a beakie face in the lower right corner. Even the striped helmets were usually an Army thing back then.

I think a lot of the marines had the stripe. I think they designated rank and some other details. Yes I found this:



So that solid stripe on their helmets would make them a normal trooper.

Helmet stripes were also used my the IG back in RT. Red for tactical, blue for support, green for assault, and yellow for command.

Crap! Forgot about that page. I always remember things form 2nd edition when I first started, and things changes so that the stripes (mostly) just meant the marine was a veteran sergeant of a vanilla chapter.

 Nevelon wrote:
Helmet stripes were also used my the IG back in RT. Red for tactical, blue for support, green for assault, and yellow for command.

Ahh... I didnt know this and I have some old school IG guys to paint up. Many thanks.

Things were quite a bit different then.


Back in 1988 The Imperial Fists were in fact a titan legion and not a marines chapter.





Apparently Dorn and Kurtz appear as Princeps in the boxed out prose in Codex Titanicus.

Well the Imperial Fists are mention in the AT rulebook (Horus Heresy summary) so maybe there were Chapters and Orders that shared the same name sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, and the Storm Lords are also a chapter, but there is a Titan Legion with the same name too.

KTG17 wrote:
Still doesnt explain why marines would be carrying around the Fire Wasp banner.

If the marine contingent were assigned to support the Fire Wasps rather than vice versa, they might fly the Fire Wasps banner as a show of fealty. Although not quite the same the studio's Epic Heresy-era Emperor's Children army had black banners bearing the Eye of Horus in lieu of their own chapter banners.

Imperial forces were much more integrated in the early days of the game than we currently see today. Back then, Marines were literally Marines, specialists in boarding actions, beachhead assaults, and recon in force. Titans use to have an option for a Corvus Assault Ram, an TCCW that included a squads of Terminators and a boarding shuttle style breached for forcing entry into enemy Titans.

I always had the impression that 40k was based on a concept of Imperial Humanity (including abhumans) and Eldar versus the rest of the universe (including traitor Humans, Xenos, and the forces of Chaos). The Imperial Army included hordes of Humans, Squats, Beastmen, Ratlings, and Ogryns forming the Guard, and augmented Human criminals and savages filling out the special forces known as Space Marines. The forces of Chaos included hordes of Humans, Beastmen, Daemons, and augmented Human murder-machines. Both sides had the same equipment, from flak armor, power armor, and TDA to Rhinos, Land Raiders, Jump Packs, and Titans, all fighting in a Galaxy-wide battle royal for supremacy while also fighting off Ork infestations, Bug incursions, and the occasional Elder race telling everyone else to GTFO their prestine garden planet.

So, I see no issues with Titan Legions and Space Marine chapters sharing the same names, colors, and battlefields (despite the massive retcons over the past 20+ years).

SJ