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So QS became a set value in the 7th edition codex. Both Lance and Quantum Shielding are modifiers that set a characteristic value (Armour Value). Since they are both the same type of modifier and happen at the same time, on the same 'layer,' they are conflicting with no clear outcome. Since they are conflicting, Basic Versus Advance comes into play. Lance is basic, while Quantum Shielding is advanced.

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

Interesting that Lance does nothing to Quantum Shielding lol. I don't play Necrons or use Lamce in my army, but this be funny to watch the Eldar players expression as you inform them that the Necrons they're fighting negate their Lance shots lol.

Don't see no conflict. Quantum shielding makes you count as av13. It doesn't need to be applied - it simply works all the time. While lance says it counts your av>12 as av12. I think, you'll get reduced to av12.

 koooaei wrote:
Don't see no conflict. Quantum shielding makes you count as av13. It doesn't need to be applied - it simply works all the time. While lance says it counts your av>12 as av12. I think, you'll get reduced to av12.

The conflict would come at the rolling for AV penetration. Lance says you roll against a 12. QS says you roll against a 13.

 koooaei wrote:
Don't see no conflict. Quantum shielding makes you count as av13. It doesn't need to be applied - it simply works all the time. While lance says it counts your av>12 as av12. I think, you'll get reduced to av12.

Both are set modifiers. That is the use much like Invisibility and abandons cc attacks.

The ITC faq rules that the players who turn it is decides which set value to use
you can get it hear
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

Im not really sure I like this but it makes it simple for GTs.

It's more than just a FAQ. It's in the BRB: if there are two actions that happen at exactly the same time, the player whose turn it is decides which order they are resolved.

So on Eldar's turn, he says, "Set to 13, and now set to 12," so he lances AV12. On Necron's turn...it wouldn't really matter, would it, since the Eldar won't be shooting on the Necron's turn!

O wow I didn't know that was in there could you point me to the section it is in ?

Don't have my book handy at work...but I do recall that it's before the Movement Phase section of the book, somewhere in the introductory rules.
Try checking around the "Spirit of the Game" section that says we should all just wanna have fun.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
It's more than just a FAQ. It's in the BRB: if there are two actions that happen at exactly the same time, the player whose turn it is decides which order they are resolved.

So on Eldar's turn, he says, "Set to 13, and now set to 12," so he lances AV12. On Necron's turn...it wouldn't really matter, would it, since the Eldar won't be shooting on the Necron's turn!

This would come up in Overwatch and Interceptor situations, where the Necron player can basically apply Lance first then QS

Its under game turns and player turns. Here is the full rule

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.

and I don't think it really applies here. Quantum Shielding and Lance are not just rules that are resolved at the same time, they are rules that are in conflict. and I think this rule

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

makes it very clear that quantum shielding takes precedence because lance is from the BRB and quantum shielding is from the codex.

 DJGietzen wrote:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

makes it very clear that quantum shielding takes precedence because lance is from the BRB and quantum shielding is from the codex.

No, Quantum Shielding simply makes your Armour value count as 13. It has no effect on special rules such as lance.

 Bla_Ze wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

makes it very clear that quantum shielding takes precedence because lance is from the BRB and quantum shielding is from the codex.

No, Quantum Shielding simply makes your Armour value count as 13. It has no effect on special rules such as lance.

Which makes your AV count as 12. You see no conflict between counting as 13 and counting as 12 ?

The problem with the line of thinking that Quantum Shielding overrides Lance is that the Lance special rule is something that a shot from a weapon carries, not something that happens to the vehicle. I'll give two examples.

You fire a Lance weapon at a Ghost Ark in its front arc. If you hit, we now worry about glances or pens. Though the front armor is 11, Quantum Shielding tells me to treat it as 13 until it suffers a glance or pen. So we set the value of the front arc as 13 for our pen rolls. However, the Lance rule make any armor value over 12 count as 12 for the sake of armor pen for that weapon. The shot is resolved versus AV 12.

Now, lets try to apply Lance first in that scenario. When Lance checks the AV, it finds that the front AV is 11. As 11 is not higher than 12, Lance does nothing. We then add Quantum Shielding, making the front AV 13. However, the Lance special rule has not been removed from the weapon and now finds an AV of 13 when resolving the armor pen. Lance sets the AV down to 12.

No matter what order the rules are tried to be applied in, the AV ends up reset to 12 from Lance because Lance is a rule that does not disappear from the profile of the weapon.

Also, I believe that lance simply treats the target as av12, doesn't actually lower it. Quantum shielding sets a new armor value, lance just treats it as being lower. Its the same with superheavies, lance treats it as lower, even though you can never lower a superheavy's armor.

Freezerassasin wrote:
The problem with the line of thinking that Quantum Shielding overrides Lance is that the Lance special rule is something that a shot from a weapon carries, not something that happens to the vehicle. I'll give two examples.

You fire a Lance weapon at a Ghost Ark in its front arc. If you hit, we now worry about glances or pens. Though the front armor is 11, Quantum Shielding tells me to treat it as 13 until it suffers a glance or pen. So we set the value of the front arc as 13 for our pen rolls. However, the Lance rule make any armor value over 12 count as 12 for the sake of armor pen for that weapon. The shot is resolved versus AV 12.

Now, lets try to apply Lance first in that scenario. When Lance checks the AV, it finds that the front AV is 11. As 11 is not higher than 12, Lance does nothing. We then add Quantum Shielding, making the front AV 13. However, the Lance special rule has not been removed from the weapon and now finds an AV of 13 when resolving the armor pen. Lance sets the AV down to 12.

No matter what order the rules are tried to be applied in, the AV ends up reset to 12 from Lance because Lance is a rule that does not disappear from the profile of the weapon.

There is no rule support for doing the rules in sequential order. QS and Lance are both applied simultaneously. Thus you have a rules conflict since you can't be both AV12 and AV13 at the same time. From there the Codex beats BRB clause takes effect so QS wins

Fragile wrote:


Which makes your AV count as 12. You see no conflict between counting as 13 and counting as 12 ?

Well not quite, i see it as specific rule, giving a non specific effect. a AV 13 vehicle has no special rules right? But Lance is a specific rule affecting a basic rules. If that made any sort of sense...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, I believe that lance simply treats the target as av12, doesn't actually lower it. Quantum shielding sets a new armor value, lance just treats it as being lower. Its the same with superheavies, lance treats it as lower, even though you can never lower a superheavy's armor.

^This.

I am a Necron player and when I read the codex I thought I had a great advantage against my buddy's Eldar. Then I re-read lance in the BRB. Sadly, for Necrons, I believe that the above argument is correct in its interpretation of the way things work.

Quaden wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, I believe that lance simply treats the target as av12, doesn't actually lower it. Quantum shielding sets a new armor value, lance just treats it as being lower. Its the same with superheavies, lance treats it as lower, even though you can never lower a superheavy's armor.

^This.

I am a Necron player and when I read the codex I thought I had a great advantage against my buddy's Eldar. Then I re-read lance in the BRB. Sadly, for Necrons, I believe that the above argument is correct in its interpretation of the way things work.

Both rules use the "counts as" wording so both work in the same way. Neither actually modifies the AV both just count it as being something else. So the case of conflict in lance vs QS codex wins. I'm both an Eldar and Necron player, the change in wording in the new dex has changed how these rules interact. This is the clear RAW, what the RaI is I don't know as GW has never directly addressed this issue.

Here's how i see it QS allows av 13 , it is purchased in building the list therefore when the game starts the thing it is attached to is AV 13 , lance is in a weapon profile it alters the av>12 to av 12, now since the QS was applied at the beginning of the game when shot by a lance weapon it is lowered to av 12

 tmo38 wrote:
Here's how i see it QS allows av 13 , it is purchased in building the list therefore when the game starts the thing it is attached to is AV 13 , lance is in a weapon profile it alters the av>12 to av 12, now since the QS was applied at the beginning of the game when shot by a lance weapon it is lowered to av 12

Except that isnt based in any rules

Its like claiming that modifying strength at list building means you ignore that you have a modifier when youre actually playing the game.

Q.S. treats the armor value as 13 until a glancing or penetrating hit occurs. Lance treats any armor value above 12 as 12. The Necron rule is always in effect, even if I am not shooting at it, if I ask what its current front armor facing is, it is 13. While the rule is irrelevant unless being attacked, it is still there all the time, there isn't an order or activation time shared between them, one is constant, one activates at a specific time
Lance only lowers it at the point of impact.

The necrons developed tech to give their vehicles survivability, the eldar were able to find a way to mitigate a part of that tech. Rules and fluff both win here.

With regard to basic vs advanced, I feel I should point out that QS and Lance are *both* advanced rules.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to basic vs advanced, I feel I should point out that QS and Lance are *both* advanced rules.

But isn't the Lance a BRB rule over the more specific Codex Necron rule? I through Codex Trumps BRB.

 Vash108 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to basic vs advanced, I feel I should point out that QS and Lance are *both* advanced rules.

But isn't the Lance a BRB rule over the more specific Codex Necron rule? I through Codex Trumps BRB.

Could you give me a page reference for this "codex trumps BRB" rule in the rulebook?

It's possible you're right, but the only reference I've seen so far is to 'Basic vs. Advanced', and nowhere in that section does it say that a codex special rule trumps a BRB special rule. Both are simply Advanced Rules, and so trump the Basic ones for movement, shooting, morale etc.

 vipoid wrote:
With regard to basic vs advanced, I feel I should point out that QS and Lance are *both* advanced rules.

Please explain?

anyway
I can see how the wording conflicts within the rules. However;

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Does the model count as having lance rule? because last time I checked, none of the "models" in my eldar dex had the lance rule. We are not modifying the characteristic of a model... so this above rule does not apply. We are talking about a weapon profile shooting against a model.

The model already has the quantum shielding rule, thus it has AV13, this rule persists until a glance or pen. So;
Your Gark, it somehow has its armour multiplied by two (now at 22), it then has QS, setting it back down to 13. (until a pen or glance at which point in this non-real example would put it back to 22 )

When I shoot at the ghost ark its armour is already AV13, because I am treating it as AV13 from game start until a glance or pen.
I shoot with a lance shot, I am NOW at this point in time applying the lance rule. The armour is then treated as AV12. You can't apply a rule that talks about "models" and characteristics(which is referring to the models characteristics) to a weapon profile.

 vipoid wrote:

Could you give me a page reference for this "codex trumps BRB" rule in the rulebook?

It's quoted in the OP

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

It's simple... both are set modifiers and happen in the order set by the player who's turn it currently is... there is no conflict of General vs Advanced. The rulebook tells us exactly how to solve this.
In the eldar player's turn, they would choose to apply the quantum shielding first, and then use the lance rule.
In the necron player's turn, they would choose to apply the lance rule first, and then the quantum shielding.

Since shooting is done in the shooting phase of the active player...it will be incredibly rare for the Necron player to get to choose the order. (Overwatch on a CCB or Triarch Stalker is the only time that I can think of.)

So... it is a largely moot argument. The AV will be 12 at any time that it matters.

 adamsouza wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Could you give me a page reference for this "codex trumps BRB" rule in the rulebook?

It's quoted in the OP

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

So it is, my mistake then.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
It's simple... both are set modifiers and happen in the order set by the player who's turn it currently is... there is no conflict of General vs Advanced. The rulebook tells us exactly how to solve this.
In the eldar player's turn, they would choose to apply the quantum shielding first, and then use the lance rule. Penetrating against AV 12.
In the necron player's turn, they would choose to apply the lance rule first, and then the quantum shielding. Penetrating against AV 13.

Since shooting is done in the shooting phase of the active player...it will be incredibly rare for the Necron player to get to choose the order. (Overwatch on a CCB or Triarch Stalker is the only time that I can think of.)

So... it is a largely moot argument. The AV will be 12 at any time that it matters.

 Bla_Ze wrote:

Fragile wrote:


Which makes your AV count as 12. You see no conflict between counting as 13 and counting as 12 ?

Well not quite, i see it as specific rule, giving a non specific effect. a AV 13 vehicle has no special rules right? But Lance is a specific rule affecting a basic rules. If that made any sort of sense...

Except its not AV 13. Its AV 11. Special rules treat it as AV 12 and AV 13. Which special rule applies? That is the conflict.

swculve wrote:


Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

The lance effect is not a model rule, its a weapon profile rule. They do not conflict because you are not applying the lance affect at the same time.

-----------------------------------------------------
You target a model.

That model when you look at its characteristics at that point in time you do the following;
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

From this the Garks AV is 13.
You Roll to hit with your STR 8 lance shot. You Hit. Even if you again decide to look at the models characteristics at this point in time its AV is still 13.
You roll to penetrate, At this point you are applying the lance effect to a shot hitting a model already under the effect of QS. The lance rule then dictates that its AV13 is > 12, thus its AV value is set to 12 for that shot.
------------------------------------------------

Even IF you decided to say; Ok my STR8 lance shot has hit, I rolled a 4 on the dice, thus making my shot STR12, lets now look at the Garks AV to see whether I do anything. The Gark at this point is NOT a MODEL with a RULE giving it AV 12. Its a model with QS giving it AV13.

So your STR12 shot doesn't do anything..... except you have the lance special rule and this states that if AV =>12, AV =12. Thus you get a glance.

RAW
A weapon is not a model, the rule quoted does not conflict because at no point what so ever are you applying two set values simultaneously.