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I don't get it - "Fire points - as per model". Later - "up to four occupying models can fire out of each of this building's fire points". So I get to shoot with all my models (let's say, 15) or just 4 or else (Wall Of Martyrs Imperial Bunker)?

You get to fire with 4 models per firepoint that the building has, if it has a rule that says "up to four occupying models can fire out of each of this building's fire points".

'Fire points- as per model' means you look at the model of the building to determine how many fire points it has.

Ah, alright, now I get it! Many thanks.

For reference, the Bastion kit if unmodified has 8 fire points.

One on each side in the base section, and then two of its vertical sides have 2 firepoints on either side of the heavy bolter emplacement.

There is also nothing preventing you from adding additional firepoints.

 Grey Templar wrote:
For reference, the Bastion kit if unmodified has 8 fire points.

One on each side in the base section, and then two of its vertical sides have 2 firepoints on either side of the heavy bolter emplacement.

There is also nothing preventing you from adding additional firepoints.

Well, adding additional fire points that aren't on the original model is modelling for advantage... so the spirit of fair play might prevent you from doing so. Seriously, if someone drilled a pair of holes and told me that 8 more troops could fire out of them, I'd call shenanigans.

Modelling for Advantage isn't an actual rule. Of course you're not going to play against the twerp who does that, but there isn't anything preventing me from modelling additional fire points. And I might play against someone if they did a good job and weren't obviously just trying for an unfair advantage.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Modelling for Advantage isn't an actual rule. Of course you're not going to play against the twerp who does that, but there isn't anything preventing me from modelling additional fire points. And I might play against someone if they did a good job and weren't obviously just trying for an unfair advantage.

Yeah, it's not a rule. But... it's pretty universally frowned upon. It's generally considered to be very unsportsmanlike.

Adding fire points to a stock model grants additional advantages that the stock model doesn't normally have. I'm not sure that saying the intent was pure should provide an allowance to keep the advantage.

The "rule of cool" only goes so far for me. I'd gladly play against a converted Imperial Bastion, but would request the player use the number and location of fire points as on a stock model.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is also nothing preventing you from adding additional firepoints.

Yes there is:

It doesn't say I can't is not how it works in a permissive ruleset.

You need a rule stating you can model additional fire points onto a building, otherwise you can not do it.

Since there is no rule stating you can model additional fire points onto a building, then you can not and it is against the rules to modify a model in such a way.

Yeah, it's not a rule. But... it's pretty universally frowned upon. It's generally considered to be very unsportsmanlike. 

It very much is a rule. No conversions are allowed RaW as the rulebook tells you to use Citadel miniatures to play the game you have no permission to use anything other than stock Citadel miniatures. Hence every conversion you allow your opponent to use (even a kit bash to say alter equipment) is a Houserule.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yeah, it's not a rule. But... it's pretty universally frowned upon. It's generally considered to be very unsportsmanlike. 

It very much is a rule. No conversions are allowed RaW as the rulebook tells you to use Citadel miniatures to play the game you have no permission to use anything other than stock Citadel miniatures. Hence every conversion you allow your opponent to use (even a kit bash to say alter equipment) is a Houserule.

The line is very thin.

Kitbashing models is MFA? (Houseruling)

I would ask then, how you manage to play Space Marine Tactical Squads with the Lascanon upgrade? The weapon is not included in the box and you must "kit bash" in order to play said option.

To me that is fully within RaW. And as i said, drawing the line between Kit bashing and MFA is quite hard.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yeah, it's not a rule. But... it's pretty universally frowned upon. It's generally considered to be very unsportsmanlike. 

It very much is a rule. No conversions are allowed RaW as the rulebook tells you to use Citadel miniatures to play the game you have no permission to use anything other than stock Citadel miniatures. Hence every conversion you allow your opponent to use (even a kit bash to say alter equipment) is a Houserule.

The line is very thin.

Kitbashing models is MFA? (Houseruling)

I would ask then, how you manage to play Space Marine Tactical Squads with the Lascanon upgrade? The weapon is not included in the box and you must "kit bash" in order to play said option.

To me that is fully within RaW. And as i said, drawing the line between Kit bashing and MFA is quite hard.

Purchase a Devastator box. It contains a Citadel model representing a Space Marine in Power Armour equipped with a Lascannon. No kit bashing required!

Realistically speaking though, I'm joking. Kit bashing is fine so long as you're following WYSIWYG and using all Citadel parts.

n the case of the Imperial Bastion, the data sheet says 'as per the model' (paraphrasing) in terms of fire points. The model has 8 fire points. Making a custom conversion with more fire points doesn't change the fact that the Imperial Bastion model, as sold, has 8 fire points.

RaW you can't have a Lascannon in a tac squad and until the recent box came out you couldn't have a combi on the Sergeant. However I doubt anyone would try to enforce that. Strict RaW any model not used according to the box title and not assembled according to the instructions is not allowed. Though I would be shocked to see anyone play the strict RAW here, what it does mean is that you are entirely in control of what MFA you allow your opponent to get away with.

Personally I go with rule of cool and player use. Putting Ghazzy on a Dread base is fine with me as he fits better. Measuring to the back of said base for disembarking in 5th Edition is however not. Modelling a cool kneeling Wraithknight taking a sniper shot with a Brightlance is likewise fine, gluing one flat to his base spread eagled and geared for combat is not. Making a cool Orky bastion is, drilling extra firepoints in an Imperial is not.

 FlingitNow wrote:
RaW you can't have a Lascannon in a tac squad and until the recent box came out you couldn't have a combi on the Sergeant. However I doubt anyone would try to enforce that. Strict RaW any model not used according to the box title and not assembled according to the instructions is not allowed. Though I would be shocked to see anyone play the strict RAW here, what it does mean is that you are entirely in control of what MFA you allow your opponent to get away with.

Personally I go with rule of cool and player use. Putting Ghazzy on a Dread base is fine with me as he fits better. Measuring to the back of said base for disembarking in 5th Edition is however not. Modelling a cool kneeling Wraithknight taking a sniper shot with a Brightlance is likewise fine, gluing one flat to his base spread eagled and geared for combat is not. Making a cool Orky bastion is, drilling extra firepoints in an Imperial is not.

Of course, that was exactly why i was calling out the issue: it leads to a complete lack of options in the boxes bought. (I am of course discussing pure RaW, HYWPI i can obviously guess we agree)

I would however say that by RaW: Kriswall has it.

If you build a Veteran or "Heavy Marine" following the "build rules" on other boxes, then you can indeed have a marine with Lascannon, that you can then include in your Tac squad. I do not see this breaking rules.

As such, the part where you would (actually be "kit bashing") be breaking the rules is if you use the Lascanon from the Devastator box, and use it on the Body of a marine from the Tac Squad.

But selecting a marine from the veterans box (who followed the "building rules") with a Combi-weapon, and including him as a Vet sergent in a Tac Squad, to me is completely within RaW (Strict strict RaW)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Yeah, it's not a rule. But... it's pretty universally frowned upon. It's generally considered to be very unsportsmanlike. 

It very much is a rule. No conversions are allowed RaW as the rulebook tells you to use Citadel miniatures to play the game you have no permission to use anything other than stock Citadel miniatures. Hence every conversion you allow your opponent to use (even a kit bash to say alter equipment) is a Houserule.

I think i should iterate my point in a much more clear way:

MFA as a rule in RaW is not as strict as you made it sound. "Stock Citadel miniatures" allow for a relatively large selection of models. But indeed, by RaW you need to follow the "Build plans". Any modification (using a weapon from another Kit, a Head / turret / legs) is indeed MFA and against "Rules".

Sorry i don't make my points clear enough

So you are using a Tactical Marine squad yes?

There is a box for a Tactical marine squad, correct?

Show permission to use a different box for your tactical marine squad (permission that doesn't allow me to use a Grot as a Stompa as a grot is a citadel miniature).

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you are using a Tactical Marine squad yes?

There is a box for a Tactical marine squad, correct?

Show permission to use a different box for your tactical marine squad (permission that doesn't allow me to use a Grot as a Stompa as a grot is a citadel miniature).

From the Space Marine eBook:

ARMY LIST ENTRIES
Each entry in the army list represents a different unit. More information about the background and rules for the Space Marines and their options can be found in the Adeptus Astartes section, while examples of the Citadel miniatures you will need to represent them can be found in the Defenders of Humanity section.

So i look in the Defenders of Humanity section, and can see a Space Marine holding a Lascannon.

It must have undoubtedly be made following the "build rules" of the Devastator box set, but as per the quote above, i may use the model as a Tactical Squad marine with Lascanon option.

The above RaW would mean that as long as you buy say 2 Tac boxes, 3 Dev boxes, 8 Vet boxes, etc, your collection should include all the "options" available to all squads as you have the "models".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some possibly relevant RaW:

The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow.

In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together,(...)

3 - Unit Profile: This section will show the profile of any models the unit can include, even if they are upgrades.

5 - Unit Composition: Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken.

So i would conclude, by strict RaW, that:
- You must build models as instructed from manuals in the Boxed Sets of models.
- You may select options for your Units (List writing first)
- You may select models, as shown in "Defenders of Humanity", to match these options and field that squad on the table.

Suddenly, the reason why "Defenders of Humanity" contains all possible options with clear pictures make sense to me, by RaW lol

Of course, this is the answer i adhere to:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Personally I go with rule of cool and player use. Putting Ghazzy on a Dread base is fine with me as he fits better. Measuring to the back of said base for disembarking in 5th Edition is however not. Modelling a cool kneeling Wraithknight taking a sniper shot with a Brightlance is likewise fine, gluing one flat to his base spread eagled and geared for combat is not. Making a cool Orky bastion is, drilling extra firepoints in an Imperial is not.

And finally, on the Subject at hand:
No, adding firepoints to the bastion is MFA and clearly breaking rules. Our discussion above cleary denotes more flexibility in the pure RaW, but you still need to "follow the Build instructions".
And the Bastion kit manual has 7 firepoints only.