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Didn't find a thread dealing with this beside a post in background, so here we go:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/X/Xiphon_40K.pdf

This thing is expensive. And it is fragile.
But goddamn, this can deal a one-two punch.
2 TL LC'S and that Xiphon Launcher are pretty much guaranteed to destroy or cripple whatyou aim this thing at. Av12 and below just get blown apart (which is basically any flyer there is), while AV14 is not the best to aim this thing at. You better be ready to jink though and fly of the board if it survives one turn of flak.
Feels like a good counterpart to a Fire Raptor. Raptor deals with MC's and Infantry while the Xiphon blows feth up with an AV.
I like it. I can already see me giving this in as a comission to DoI to compliment my RW Raptor List.

Holy crap: Expensive, and pretty well-armed, but barely tougher than Dark Eldar stuff.

You miss those two shots fron it's ml and it's basically a talon with 2 tl LCs. I feel it needs strafing run or that gun to be tl to be even remotely near its points cost.

Poly Ranger wrote:
You miss those two shots fron it's ml and it's basically a talon with 2 tl LCs. I feel it needs strafing run or that gun to be tl to be even remotely near its points cost.

But it's an interceptor, not a ground-attack craft. Makes sense not to have Strafing Run.

As a DA player, the Xiphon is exactly what the Nephilim Jet fighter should have been.

For 205 plus upgrades I'll stick to the stormfang and fire raptor. AV11 with 2 HP, basically it flies onto the table, hopefully kills something worth 200 points and then crashes and burns in a blaze of glory. Or, it flies onto the table, you roll poorly, it crashes and burns and you've wasted over 200 points that could've been spent better elsewhere.

It is a bit expensive... We'll see about it's final rules.

The point cost however feels right..
Fly in with supersonic - guarantees something will be in range or DS behind a tank/flyer.
Blow an enemy flyer up (looking at you, Heldrakes which give me so much trouble!). Jink, fly off the board, repeat.
I consider this more as a missile than a flyer. You aim it, you shoot, you hope for the best, cause a second shot is somewhat unlikely.
It really fits it's role of an AA fighter craft for loyalists. Comparing it to a Storm Talon it seems adequately priced for its firepower.
You're very close by adding a 2nd LC to the Storm Talon. And I'd wager the Rotary Launcher is worth as much - so you really get a better jink, Terminal Tracking, armoured ceramite and super sonic in exchange for the Assault Cannon and Strafing Run - which does not much against fliers.
it feels expensive because its 205pts for AV11 2HP - but it really isn't overpriced.

 Toofast wrote:
For 205 plus upgrades I'll stick to the stormfang and fire raptor. AV11 with 2 HP, basically it flies onto the table, hopefully kills something worth 200 points and then crashes and burns in a blaze of glory. Or, it flies onto the table, you roll poorly, it crashes and burns and you've wasted over 200 points that could've been spent better elsewhere.

You remembered the 3+ jink?

This thing actually have the restrictions of being a flyer. Only the 90 degree turn, all weapons fixed front. No vector dancer, no turreted weapons. Can’t just hover and pivot.

It’s massively overgunned on a crazy fragile chassis. It’s weapons are going to down other aircraft if it can get the shot, but it’s an interceptor, and that’s it’s job. The special rules on the ML are nasty to other flyers. Their only hope is for you to miss with those two shots. Because if one lands, they are just going to be a lingering cloud of debris. Assuming the 2xTLLCs don’t get you either.

But for 200+ points I’m willing to accept the fire this thing is putting out. For those points you could have a stormraven. And while the SR lacks the brutal offense of the Xiphon, it still packs a punch, and is more flexible. Hover, a turreted gun, POTMS, missiles, AV12, and the cargo bay if you feel like it.

I still don't know how many people would take it with that price tag.

205 points for an AV11 2HP flyer? No thanks.

I don't care if it has agile, if you need to jink to have a chance of staying alive then you won't be hitting all that much with that fancy missile launcher anyway.

The fireraptor is not too far behind the xiphon vs AV12 flyers, is better vs AV10, but brings a whole lot more to the table for its comparative points.

These are still experimental rules of course, and could see some change. I'd consider it if it was 150 ish points. It is just a storm talon with more guns after all. At the moment though the pricing is way off imo.

Question on the deep strike:

You place the model, roll for scatter, move it. I assume it still is facing the same direction. Most things can pivot without issues, but zooming flyers have restrictions. With fixed front weapons, this could be an issue for the Xiphon doing a precision drop.

Shouldn't it have the interceptor rule?

 Valkyrie wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You miss those two shots fron it's ml and it's basically a talon with 2 tl LCs. I feel it needs strafing run or that gun to be tl to be even remotely near its points cost.

But it's an interceptor, not a ground-attack craft. Makes sense not to have Strafing Run.

Good point.


Issue is though when you compare it to the basic stormraven for around the same points. The raven is arguably twice as durable, it has a transport cap and can also transport a dread. It is an assault vehicle for those it transports. And when it comes to shooting it gets to fire 4 tl ac shots, 1 tl mm shot and 3 of its 4 missiles in the turn it arrives. That's far more shots. Two of the Xiphons shots force the opponent to reroll cover/jink, and there is the 3 rolls on the pen table. But it's not even as effective as the ravens tl multi melta! A melta gets to reroll to hit, it gets an extra d6 pen die and when it pens its only got 19/216 chance worse of causing an explodes (1-5/6*5/6*5/6 for the Xiphon gives a 91/216 chance, 2/6 on the melta is the same as 72/216 so only 19/216 difference). So the only big benefit is that it forces the opponent to reroll successful cover saves.

Gossssh what a damn let down! I was hyped to the max for this thing =( I would have accepted 175 but 205pts?! thats just way to much on so little of a platform.


why not at least give it one more HP and maybe another AV on the front? or maybe tank hunter for flyers?

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You miss those two shots fron it's ml and it's basically a talon with 2 tl LCs. I feel it needs strafing run or that gun to be tl to be even remotely near its points cost.

But it's an interceptor, not a ground-attack craft. Makes sense not to have Strafing Run.

Good point.


Issue is though when you compare it to the basic stormraven for around the same points. The raven is arguably twice as durable, it has a transport cap and can also transport a dread. It is an assault vehicle for those it transports. And when it comes to shooting it gets to fire 4 tl ac shots, 1 tl mm shot and 3 of its 4 missiles in the turn it arrives. That's far more shots. Two of the Xiphons shots force the opponent to reroll cover/jink, and there is the 3 rolls on the pen table. But it's not even as effective as the ravens tl multi melta! A melta gets to reroll to hit, it gets an extra d6 pen die and when it pens its only got 19/216 chance worse of causing an explodes (1-5/6*5/6*5/6 for the Xiphon gives a 91/216 chance, 2/6 on the melta is the same as 72/216 so only 19/216 difference). So the only big benefit is that it forces the opponent to reroll successful cover saves.

I agree with this. It is over costed vs a stormraven for what it does. I would like to see a points drop (25'ish would be nice) when the rules are finalized.

I, however don't have access without using a pricey formation, the DA flyers are not worth considering, and FW Storm Eagle is 290'ish points for similar offensive capabilities. I don't need a flying Land Raider, I need a fast and hard hitting anti-flyer unit with good range and garaunteed acquisition of a target unlike FW mortis and Deredeo dreads with LoS and 6" movements.

Or I could not play DA.

A tl mm inside 12" melta range (easy to do on a flyer) shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

8/9 x 5/6 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 12.3% chance of explodes result.

A XRML shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

1 shot. 2/3 x 1/3 x 3/4 x 91/216 = 7%
2 shots. 1 - 0.93 x 0.93 = 13.5% chance of explodes result.

The XRML has a 1.2% better chance of exploding an AV12 jinking flyer than a tl MM. If we are talking about hps lost rather than penning, one of the XRMLs special jazzy rules won't even apply.

The tl assault cannon is exactly the same chance as a tl lascannon (only against av12 - against absolutely anything else the ac is better).

So thats 3 st8 ap2 missiles left from the raven compared to 1 tl lascannon shot left from the Xiphon.

So the Stormraven slightly outshoots the Xiphon against av12 with a 4+ cover/jink. Without 4+ cover/jink, it will do noticeably better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brillow80 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
You miss those two shots fron it's ml and it's basically a talon with 2 tl LCs. I feel it needs strafing run or that gun to be tl to be even remotely near its points cost.

But it's an interceptor, not a ground-attack craft. Makes sense not to have Strafing Run.

Good point.


Issue is though when you compare it to the basic stormraven for around the same points. The raven is arguably twice as durable, it has a transport cap and can also transport a dread. It is an assault vehicle for those it transports. And when it comes to shooting it gets to fire 4 tl ac shots, 1 tl mm shot and 3 of its 4 missiles in the turn it arrives. That's far more shots. Two of the Xiphons shots force the opponent to reroll cover/jink, and there is the 3 rolls on the pen table. But it's not even as effective as the ravens tl multi melta! A melta gets to reroll to hit, it gets an extra d6 pen die and when it pens its only got 19/216 chance worse of causing an explodes (1-5/6*5/6*5/6 for the Xiphon gives a 91/216 chance, 2/6 on the melta is the same as 72/216 so only 19/216 difference). So the only big benefit is that it forces the opponent to reroll successful cover saves.

I agree with this. It is over costed vs a stormraven for what it does. I would like to see a points drop (25'ish would be nice) when the rules are finalized.

I, however don't have access without using a pricey formation, the DA flyers are not worth considering, and FW Storm Eagle is 290'ish points for similar offensive capabilities. I don't need a flying Land Raider, I need a fast and hard hitting anti-flyer unit with good range and garaunteed acquisition of a target unlike FW mortis and Deredeo dreads with LoS and 6" movements.

Or I could not play DA.

I think even more maybe. 35/40pts im feeling.

Flyers and the Deep Strike Special Rule

Is that a unit specific option? Can other "normal" flyers do this

Not any more, they used to when fliers were originally skimmers in the transition 5th-6th, but it has been gradually removed, but FW have kept it as an option on some (and possibly GW too)

Oh also forgot to mention that the storm raven is far more likely to be around to shoot a 2nd, 3rd or 4th time. Albeit with only 1 missile in the 2nd round of shooting.

Would it be reasonable to assume this is a super-heavy flyer hunter? T-hawks, Maruaders, that new Kharybdis thingy. A few decent rolls and you could easily strip off half a dozen HPs a turn. Two Xiphons would likely be a death sentence for anything with wIngs. Also, this could be a hard counter to the Fire Raptor. Fire Raptors are ridiculously good for the points cost. I'm all for putting a little fear into people.

I'm not a fan of it, as written.

The model is OK, though.

Makes a Voidraven look like a joke though.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Would it be reasonable to assume this is a super-heavy flyer hunter? T-hawks, Maruaders, that new Kharybdis thingy. A few decent rolls and you could easily strip off half a dozen HPs a turn. Two Xiphons would likely be a death sentence for anything with wIngs. Also, this could be a hard counter to the Fire Raptor. Fire Raptors are ridiculously good for the points cost. I'm all for putting a little fear into people.

The stormraven is mathmatically better at killing av12 flyers. And is more durable. If it is a death sentence for a flyer to come across 2 Xiphons then it is even more so for them to come across 2 stormravens.

It just doesn't add up to its points. It's worse than the stormraven for durability, it's worse than the stormraven for transport capb (it doesn't jave one), it's worse than the storm raven for damage output.
It's worse than the stormraven in every conceivable way... well apart from maybe range - which a flyer isn't usually too bothered about.

Well, Dark Angels can take it without resorting to a formation.
That is an advantage in my book...
If you have to deal with Dualbaledrakes, everything is a help.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Would it be reasonable to assume this is a super-heavy flyer hunter? T-hawks, Maruaders, that new Kharybdis thingy. A few decent rolls and you could easily strip off half a dozen HPs a turn. Two Xiphons would likely be a death sentence for anything with wIngs. Also, this could be a hard counter to the Fire Raptor. Fire Raptors are ridiculously good for the points cost. I'm all for putting a little fear into people.

The stormraven is mathmatically better at killing av12 flyers. And is more durable. If it is a death sentence for a flyer to come across 2 Xiphons then it is even more so for them to come across 2 stormravens.

It just doesn't add up to its points. It's worse than the stormraven for durability, it's worse than the stormraven for transport capb (it doesn't jave one), it's worse than the storm raven for damage output.
It's worse than the stormraven in every conceivable way... well apart from maybe range - which a flyer isn't usually too bothered about.

Are you willing to do the math on that, coz I'm skeptical you're correct. Unless your opponent's flyers are on the table first, good luck getting 2nd turn melta shots at 2d6 pen on another flyer that you're probably automatically including in your maths.

Copy-Paste from above. With added bits to show where fractions came from.

A tl mm inside 12" melta range (easy to do on a flyer) shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

8/9 x 5/6 x 1/2 x 1/3 = 12.3% chance of explodes result.
(Chance to hit at tl bs4 x chance to pen av12 with st8 melta x chance to get past jink x chance to explodes with ap1)

A XRML shooting at a jinking av12 flyer:

1 shot. 2/3 x 1/3 x 3/4 x 91/216 = 7%
(Chance to hit at bs4 x chance to pen av12 with st8 x chance to get past jink x chance to explodes with ap2)
2 shots. 1 - 0.93 x 0.93 = 13.5% chance of explodes result.
(Inverse of not exploding)
Here is where the 91/216 has come from: 1-5/6*5/6*5/6 for the Xiphon gives a 91/216 (this is the inverse of not exploding with 3 rolls)

The XRML has a 1.2% better chance of exploding an AV12 jinking flyer than a tl MM. If we are talking about hps lost rather than penning, one of the XRMLs special jazzy rules won't even apply.

The tl assault cannon is exactly the same chance as a tl lascannon (only against av12 - against absolutely anything else the ac is better).
(Can demonstrate if desired - but has been shown on multiple threads for years)

So thats 3 st8 ap2 missiles left from the raven compared to 1 tl lascannon shot left from the Xiphon.
(Haven't done the maths on this but assuming that 3 st8 ap2 shots will do more damage than 1 tl st9 ap2 - I think this is self evident but I can do the maths if you would like)

So the Stormraven slightly outshoots the Xiphon against av12 with a 4+ cover/jink. Without 4+ cover/jink, it will do noticeably better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: if opponents are not in your arc of fire you won't be able to fire the tlMM, but neither will you be able to fire your XRML. If it is in your arc of fire, then a 18-36" move plus a 12" melta range will mean you are almost certainly going to be in melta range.

Poly Ranger wrote:

It's worse than the stormraven in every conceivable way... well apart from maybe range - which a flyer isn't usually too bothered about.

And looks. Viper knock-off >> flying dumpster.

Rules can be tweaked from the experimental stage. Ugly is forever. All it would take to make the Xiphon more attractive is a points drop. It takes major kitbashing to do the same with the raven.

 Nevelon wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

It's worse than the stormraven in every conceivable way... well apart from maybe range - which a flyer isn't usually too bothered about.

And looks. Viper knock-off >> flying dumpster.

Rules can be tweaked from the experimental stage. Ugly is forever. All it would take to make the Xiphon more attractive is a points drop. It takes major kitbashing to do the same with the raven.

Lol completely agree about the ravens looks. I was of course not referring to its aesthetics when I made that statement. I hope they do drop the points on it. You got a link to a pic by any chance for the Xiphon?

Overall, for it's price cost, I think it's ok. If this thing had 3 HP's I'd be concerned, it's got a pretty insane amount of firepower, but at 2 HP's that's a reasonable tradeoff if it's going to be an FA as opposed to an HS unit. It's packing more firepower than a Vendetta, with some cover-mitigating abilities to boot, so it can certainly put out the hurt.

That said, I think it's "cluster warheads" rule could be ditched and just make the missiles AP1 instead, that would average out to be roughly the same thing without needing the additional dice rolling shennanigans.

It has less firepower than a raven... people need to start seeing this.
It also lacks the durability of the raven, and the transport cap. Yet costs 5pts more.

Not only does it have less firepower than the raven on a single turn, but it will have a lot less firepower over the course of the game due to being destroyed much earlier on average.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

It's worse than the stormraven in every conceivable way... well apart from maybe range - which a flyer isn't usually too bothered about.

And looks. Viper knock-off >> flying dumpster.

Rules can be tweaked from the experimental stage. Ugly is forever. All it would take to make the Xiphon more attractive is a points drop. It takes major kitbashing to do the same with the raven.

Lol completely agree about the ravens looks. I was of course not referring to its aesthetics when I made that statement. I hope they do drop the points on it. You got a link to a pic by any chance for the Xiphon?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/XIPHON_INTERCEPTOR.html