Decurion Style Chaos Legions

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**Roknar**

** edit: It's getting a bit messy, so I created a google doc folder that has the lists as well: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_A9L670bn8ofnU1Q21oYzhFV2JieTdmanlCSHNZQ1UyVXVfbjVtX0VMWk1NZXpYdkFOaVU&usp=sharing **
** now if it would only sync properly, that would be nice **

Hi all,

bit of a lurker here, checking out rumours every now and then for the last few years but little more. But I thought now would be a good time to propose this ^^.

With the Horus Heresy legions, I see a lot of people saying one should simply stick to that for chaos legions. But I don't actually want those kinds of legions and with the decurion style army lists I think GW finally has a great opportunity to do 40k legions/warbands without too much hassle on their part.

The way I see legions in 40k is that some age old legionnaire is going to be leading a warband, often with a bunch of other legionnaires acting as sergeants and what not.
There might not be any legions proper anymore, but there still are sizeable warbands that operate in much the same way they used to before. Night lords still ambush, iron warriors still do siege, world eaters....you get the idea. The motivations might have changed, they will have a different arsenal and all but the still fight their battles in a similar style, albeit very different in detail.

The basic units in Codex Chaos Space Marines aren't that bad. Sure, you don't get really specialized units that you might find in some old legion warband or truly dedicated to some god. But they offer a decent template.
The Decurion style formation allow GW to change how units behave, by adding special rules and promoting certain playstyles. They also make for characterful army organisations. The codex Daemonkin formations are quite flavourful for example, even if the rules/units aren't always quite what we'd like to see.

As an example , you could have a world eaters formation with an auxiliary that gives havocs some special rules for autocannons/heavy bolters. Maybe something like the volkite deflagerate rule, or a to wound roll of 6 causes pinning because the target exploded, that way the rest can assault them easier, or their heavy guns count as power mauls in melee, or it would let other units reroll charge distance against them because they become more bloodthirsty... the sky's the limit.
Night Lords would have a formation promoting raptors, giving them fear maybe. Or allowing you to choose certain warlord traits if you choose one of the bigger formations in general, like the infiltrate one.

What I'm trying to say is this. I would like to create a decurion style formation for each of the Legions, with auxiliaries and what not. And by I, I mean all of us. And then just send them to GW as a proposal. As far as I'm concerned, they could offer a dataslate with nothing but a collection of these new formations and I'd be more than satisfied. I feel decurion style lists are here to stay, so we might as well push for what we'd like to see sooner rather than later.

Unfortunately, I'm the middle of doing my thesis and the workload is probably going to increase soon, so I'd like to hear what you people think of this idea, and, if you like it...If maybe somebody would take care of that, since I know I'd spend my all my time on this rather than doing what I'm supposed to be doing

**Roknar**

No replies yet, but with almost 70 views I'm just gonna assume there's at least some interest in the topic. I suppose I'll kick it off with a proposal for Black Legion.
I didn't include possessed and warp talons because I don't really feel them in this context. The cult troops make more sense as an allied detachment. Anyway, let's see how bad this gets bashed ^^

Black Crusade detachment

Spoiler:

**koooaei**

Making termies able to sweep would make them less gakky and not 9 (360 pt allready) in a landraider (usually ~240 pt). Not telling bout an indep.

Take away the +6 pt. Space wolves have a termie formation with +1 tougness (and probably +1 WS too - can't remember) for no additional cost and they're still mediocre.

**Roknar**

I'm not happy about the +6 points either, but that's what they cost in the black legion supplement. I don't like it either. I am, however trying to roll with what we currently have.
And the bringers of despair simply make sense in that regard. Normally you'd need to bring abaddon to even be allowed to pay the tax, so they're the obvious choice for a black legion command formation.
I'm trying to think what GW would do here, and that seems about right. Hopefully that'll change somewhere in the far future, but if we want formations now...they're not going to fix that.

As for sweeping..When I thought about that formation I was picturing going up against space marines. Being able to sweep wont do much there apart from keeping you in combat for one more turn.
When I take Abaddon, I usually take a bunch of termies with him in a land raider..but with only 10 slots your limited to a small squad compared to loyalists. I'm always jealous of their larger capacities.

Being able to sweep is generally more useful though I suppose and works on a fluff level too. I guess I'll update that instead of not being bulky. Thanks

Anybody body else got any input?

**Roknar**

Well, nobody complaining yet...so I Guess I'll keep going? Many people seem to like Iron Warriors so I tried that. Don't really know jack about them though and I can't say I'm confident about this list XD, but here goes

Siege Breaker detachement

Spoiler:

**Gordon Shumway**

I like where you are going with this idea. I cannot offer any constructive feedback or criticism as I am just getting into 40k myself with a Night Lords army. Would love to see your take on them, if possible.

**Filch**

So i can Take multiple Cold Warrior Formations with 1 spite cult auxiliary each?

Cold Warriors
Sorc-60
2x10 cultists-100

aux
4 x5havocs 4 hb-345

CAD 2

Cold Warriors

sorc-60
2x10 cultists-100

aux
4x5 havocs, 4 hb-345

1010pts

Cultist get cannon fodder with small chance to replenish. while I have 8 squads of Havocs march up with 96 hb shot that may rend.

to make it an even 1000pts i drop 1 hb.

is this how decurion works?

edit: reread the snippets where you nerf malefic smmo to rend on wounds only.

**Roknar**

Cold Warriors
Sorc-60
2x10 cultists-100

aux
4 x5havocs 4 hb-460

Thats 620 points for 1 such set, putting you at 1240 points for two. Your going to have to drop more than one hb to get to 1000

But yes, from what I can tell, you could do that with a decurion style formation .
I don't see that winning a lot of games though. Not since Nids got drop pods anyway.

Then again, if anybody thinks otherwise, DO tell me lol. I'm not trying to wishlist or anything here. I'm just trying to make the original traitor warbands work with formations.
Trying to hit the character of the legion in question, without making them OP. The buffs can be strong, but imo the daemonkin get some pretty serious buffs too.
Plus I haven't and probably won't, get a chance to playtest.

More importantly, it would be nice if some of you black library enthusiasts would drop some feedback as my knowledge of the lore and tactics and so on, is cursory at best.

**Filch**

whoops. I was so use to 3x5 havocs and 4 ac clocking in at 345pts.

Did malefic ammo always have rending only for wounding or did the guy make that nerf?

**Roknar**

"the guy" nerfed it, since I gave them tank hunter too. Just like in the forgeworld book.
Except that there they get pinning and cover save reduce instead of rending.
Which I suppose would work as well, but as a unit they have changed and I thought malefic ammo would be a nice touch.

If they were able to rend on vehicles too, they would be tearing apart land raiders, so I nerfed to hit only squishy stuff.
If you want to take out tanks, you'd still have to take dedicated anti tank units/weapons.

Rending is evil and all, but if you want lots of it, that means lots of infantry outside of a transport. With lots of transports and cover saves on the opposition, against which they would be useless.
But I'd have to try... I could still see that nerfed rending being too strong yet.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Up next are Night Lords as per Gordons request. Tried to stay away from anything daemonic here. Also tried to keep stealthiness to a minimum, because I prefer to see more of that on Alpha legion. I see Nightlords as fast first, sneaky second.

Terror Assault detachment

Spoiler:

**adamsouza**

I think to do a Decurion/Bloodcult like formation, your core choice requires at least 1 additional unit, that people wouldn't normally take, and would accuse GW of trying to "tax" them for taking the formation and sell underperforming models.

The Decurion forces you take 2 units of warriors, 1 unit of Immortals, and a squad of Tomb blades before you get any choices.

The Bloodcult makes you take a squad of chosen, on top of everything else.

Your cores, are like CADs, with 1HQ and 2TR minimums, and I feel they should have larger minimum requirements, otherwise they are a no brainer decision to take.

**SharkoutofWata**

I haven't found a single issue in any of the lists you've made. I would genuinely look froward to playing games like this and these layouts would make me collect Chaos when the codex dropped. I really hope it ends up like this for Chaos.

I do agree some bad unit tax could be included. Warp Talons mandatory for Night Lords, 5 man Terminator squad for Black Legion, something that makes folks unhappy.

**Filch**

lols. CSM decurion will suck so bad by who ever writes it by gw. There will only be 1 good one and everyone will call it broken and then an errata will nerf bat it in the face so CSM is bottom tier worthless.

**Roknar**

adamsouza wrote:
I think to do a Decurion/Bloodcult like formation, your core choice requires at least 1 additional unit, that people wouldn't normally take, and would accuse GW of trying to "tax" them for taking the formation and sell underperforming models.

Heh. You have a point there. I might just have repressed that from my memory

I haven't found a single issue in any of the lists you've made. I would genuinely look froward to playing games like this and these layouts would make me collect Chaos when the codex dropped. I really hope it ends up like this for Chaos.

Now that's what I like to hear

And to Filch. Have some faith lol. I want to make these formations as close to what GW would do as possible, so as to avoid that kind of thing. Assuming it's true what they say and they read everything they get, this will stick in their heads whether they like it or not.
And if they do happen to like it, the less they have to do, the more likely it is we get something cool ^^... and the more sales they make..so ..win/win

On another topic, should I resctrict the Black Legion detachment to be from the supplement? For me, personally it's a no-brainer...despite the extra costs. It's what I had in mind when I made the list. Basing your list on codex chaos space marines makes it flat out better and your only missing out on the re-rollable warlord trait. Or should I leave it as is, where it's simply implied by the Warlord trait?

The blobs of marines are pretty good, but they're really expensive if taken from the supplement.

And also... Should I change the Iron warrior S&P to not affect units with the daemonforge rule instead of possession? Goes better with the theme, but atm, your going to take lots of havocs...if you really want to be more mobile you'd have to pay the rhinos as well as possession, meaning some poor sod will most likely get eaten. Might be ok too.

**pelicaniforce**

Using the BL supplement means yu can take the point cost out of the Bringers of Despair restriction, which I don't think belongs in a formation.

I think this is really good. You seem to have a good handle on what this is about.

**Filch**

adamsouza wrote:
I think to do a Decurion/Bloodcult like formation, your core choice requires at least 1 additional unit, that people wouldn't normally take, and would accuse GW of trying to "tax" them for taking the formation and sell underperforming models.

The Decurion forces you take 2 units of warriors, 1 unit of Immortals, and a squad of Tomb blades before you get any choices.

The Bloodcult makes you take a squad of chosen, on top of everything else.

Your cores, are like CADs, with 1HQ and 2TR minimums, and I feel they should have larger minimum requirements, otherwise they are a no brainer decision to take.

Thank you for that explanation!

These decurion formation require a detrimental unit such as Mutilators, warp talons, possessed, defiler.

Iron warrior book Storm Of Iron featured a Defiler, squad of Berserkers, Infiltrating Chosen, Captured Guardsmen forced into rhinos and treated as cultists fodder to test enemy siege lines. Also a terminator squad.

If I was to make an Iron Warrior Decurion style formation as a reference to Storm of Iron
Iron Warriors: Siege of Hydra Cordatus formation

You must take all of these units at their respective points and purchase upgrade requirements in order to unlock powerful rules.

1 Warpsmith as HQ tax. Can have Warsmith instead. Special Rule: One Eye Open for all psychers including Main and Allied Sorcerers.

1 Berzerker Squad of 10 as elite tax. You are forced to buy 10 models and you could buy rhino if you wanted but at that point you already forced to spend 190pts.
Special rule: Kroeger Everflowing Cuirass. When champ dies, His armor has a chance to corrupt an enemy to become enraged and attack his allies in base contact.

1 Chosen Squad of 5 as elite tax. Required to take at least 1 lascannon, and a flamer, Champion must take power sword. This is a very worthless weapon load out and you are forced into paying points into a squad.
Special rule Honsou Spec Ops: Unit has infiltrate unlike current Chosen. When this champion Honsou wins his 1st challenge He is automatically awarded Daemonhood

1 Terminator squad of at least 3 as elite tax:
Requires 1 chainfist and 1 heavy flamer.
Special Rules: Free votlw

1 Defiler occupying your Heavy slot. This is a heavy support tax.

1 Vindicator with siege shield. Tax and not so good as a singleton

1 Obliterator. Req un marked. Can not increase squad size.
Special rule: precision deep strike: reduce scatter dice by 4 inches.

Troop tax
2 squads of Cultist.
Special Rule: Dedicated transport rhino for each can and must be purchased. Un armed: they have no weapons and count as having 1 base attack. Essentially true cannon fodder.

Restrictions: No fast attack allowed. The Kroeger Khorne Berserkers, Housou Chosen, and Forrix Terminators can never be troops units even when you have a HQ with corresponding mark or play Black Legion Supplement.

Each of these occupy your slots so you have no choice for elite or heavy or fast attack. Your only choice are 4 remaining troops slots.

**Roknar**

@Filch
The Formations don't prevent you from taking an allied detachment with Berserkers..
Infiltrating Chosen isn't so much an Iron Warriors thing as it is a Chosen thing....except that GW removed that option and replaced it with the warlord trait. Which wouldn't be so bad if you could actually choose it -_-
Your list isn't really representative of Iron Warriors in general. It's an attempt to recreate the events from that book. Different goals

That said, a Warpsmith as Tax?...hmm..that might work.
Anybody else have thoughts on that? Seems fluffy, but I'm concerned about getting only a single model for those points. I kinda feel that the tax should come in the form of units and not Characters.

@pelicaniforce
Forcing the Black Legion supplement doesn't automatically force you to use bringers of despair. I would still have to use the restriction. I agree that it's not ideal but I'm not sure how else to do it.

So anyway, sorry for taking so long but Emperor's Children were a lot harder to do. I suspect that goes for the other cult legions too. How do you take stuff that's already quite good and make it cooler/fluffy without breaking it?
Plus they suck to do, because I'd love to give out doom sirens and sonic blasters left right n center but the way the codex is written, I can't really do it. Not to mention GW not selling appropriate kits = no deal.
Berserkers on juggernaughts woooo...wait..no model?...uuugh. So without further ado:

Voracious Host detachement

Spoiler:

**Roknar**

Thousand sons up next. Hard to tell if that's in any way balanced though.lots of psykers means lots of fire power in terms of combos or spells, but your paying out of your

for them and somebody WILL die to perils. and its still all random.

Dark Harbingers detachment

Spoiler:

**Barrogh**

Eh... With all honesty, I can't quite understand this trend of Preferred Enemy (Codex), especially if it's army-wide.

Is matchup against CSM (and only CSM) is that horrible for Dark Angels? Is this detachment in question falls short statistically against SM specifically?

I somehow doubt that...

**Roknar**

It's mainly a fluff thing, much like back in third blood angels got bonuses against abaddon due to him wearing the claw that killed their primarch.
In the case of dark angels they hunt down chaos whenever they can to redeem themselves.

I like it for fluffy reasons, but I dislike the concept in terms of gameplay. Your potentially really good against one army but you're at a disadvantage against other armies.
But we got the rules and GW uses them in such a manner quite often so until they change that, I rolled with it.

**Spinner**

I like this! I like it a lot!

I'm afraid that I don't know enough about Chaos to say whether or not it's balanced mechanically, but it looks solid fluffwise and pretty much everyone else is saying that it's balanced, so I'll take their word for it. Kudos for starting a project like this!

**Roknar**

Always glad to hear that

. Need to take a break from a it though...Really have to get some actual work done lol
Let's hope it wont take TOO long ^^

**Roknar**

Word Bearers up next. Lots of cultists and pseudo fearless. Summoning daemons is buffed. On the flip side, summoning demons is kinda slow and you're going to want to buy a bunch of icons. Also no bikes or raptors as demons can take those jobs, once you summon them. Not to mention they'd probably sooner use warp talons than raptors.

Burning Truth detachment

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
World Eaters next. I tried to make them the frothing maniacs GW makes them out to be, that would rather drown a bunker in corpses of their own men than use a vindicator with a bunker busting payload...........

So it's similar to daemonkin in that it's focused on melee. Melee can do all jobs cept for anti air, which is why there's a forgefiend and heldrake. Different buffs obviously, since there is no blood tithe system. I think overall quite similar in strength though. with WE slightly ahead until daemonkin get blood tithe buffs. At least in terms of marine units.

Also noticed I forgot to add forgefiends to night lords and TSons. Not that I wanted to, but we don't have many options in terms of anti air.

** edit: forgot to add Kharn

**

Relentless Fury detachment

Spoiler:

**edit: Might be an idea if somebody bumped the thread as it appended the world eaters instead of making a new post, in case somebody missed the update. **

**Filch**

Barrogh wrote:
Eh... With all honesty, I can't quite understand this trend of Preferred Enemy (Codex), especially if it's army-wide.

Is matchup against CSM (and only CSM) is that horrible for Dark Angels? Is this detachment in question falls short statistically against SM specifically?

I somehow doubt that...

Well what if Slaanesh Decurion also had Preferred enemy: Eldar/Dark Eldar?

Tzeentch Decurion has Preferred enemy: Space Wolves

Nurgle Decurion has Preferred Enemy: I really dont know the lore

Khorne Decurion already published.

**koooaei**

It's more of a fluff boost rather than needed one.

**Roknar**

** edit: Death Guard added. **
One they have been quite inconsistent about. I don't know what criteria a unit must fulfill in order to get the buff, but in this case only the black legion must take the rule to hate space marines.
So they're the only ones I'm giving it to. You can always still give it to any via VotLW.
And preferred enemy if your warlord decides that today is a good day to wail on some space marines, since warlords are about as fickle as chaos gods when it comes to their defining features.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Death Guard next, only Alpha Legion missing now! Mostly what you would do now, except more infantry focused and harder to kill with more love/bile in the air. Giving them proper weakening and disease-spewing weapons would be cooler but no-can-do. Not to mention their still not as tough as deathwing with their T5 hammernators, but that's loyalists for ya. Added the edit because the post was appended again. Is there any option to turn that off?

Nurgle’s Embrace detachment

Spoiler:

**Roknar**

And finally Alpha Legion. The current codex doesn't do them justice at all, but I think I still managed to somewhat capture their theme.
It would be nice if somebody could play-test these lists even a little bit. And by that I mean if the legion theme is transported to the table top without being to clumsy.

I wanted capture the characters of the legion first, balance in terms of abilities second. The actual unit numbers are pretty much random and they would require higher figures anyway, seeing as how they can be used outside of these detachments.
In other words try to make fluffy varied lists. Don't try to exploit certain bonuses with MSU or god knows what. I'm just curious if they work at their core. Proper balancing would come later down the road. I won't be able to test myself.

For now I just want word bearers to feel like your playing word bearers, Night lords to feel like night lords, etc. And not feel overpowered while doing so ofc. underpowered is fine as long as you don't feel weaker than the base codex.

King Slayer detachment

Spoiler:

**Filch**

lols at stealth defilers! A 72" cannon only 18" away! ready to charge you with crab claws.

**SharkoutofWata**

I would change the army-wide Stealth to something like 'a 4+ (or better) Cover Save when using intervening models as cover instead of a 5+'. Similar to the Tyrant's Legion and Helcult. Emulates the uniformity of the Legion, being unable to keep track of a specific target or simply just using those AoC as meat shields. But, they aren't exactly Stealthy in the sense of hiding in the woods like Raptors.

Alpha Legion in particular I want to take every Formation... That would be very fun.

**Filch**

i wish i understood decurion better. i would try to write a formation where its iron warrior mobile siege lines.

One of the strategies was to trick the enemy into firing their long range guns to determine their maximum range. Then dug trenches to distract the enemy with longer range bombardment cannons. then out flank from another side with squadron of Vindicators blitzkrieg an undefended wall. Breach it with a huge hole and then have so many rhinos and other fast attack spill in.

Mobile Siege Lines-auxiliary
2-4 Vindicators
1-2 biker or spawns or mauler fiends

Pincer attack-units in this formation gain outflanking rule.