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D-Weapon hits a vehicle. 2 is rolled on the D-Damage table. And a subsequent 2 is rolled for number of Hull Points lost.

How many Cover or Invul saves are made (e.g. with something like a Soul Grinder that has an Invul)? How many rolls on the Vehicle Pen Damage table are made?

Thanks!

The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 Hull Points instead of 1.

You would get one chance to save against the hit, which would prevent any loss of Hull Points. If you fail the save, only a single roll on the Vehicle Damage Table is caused.

 Quanar wrote:

The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 Hull Points instead of 1.

You would get one chance to save against the hit, which would prevent any loss of Hull Points. If you fail the save, only a single roll on the Vehicle Damage Table is caused.

Some argue the second part as well. The argument being it causes a "penetrating hit that causes a loss of d3 HP instead of 1." The view is that instead of the vehicle damage chart the D-weapon only every can do up to D3 wounds. It can't explode, immoblize, stun, or anything to a vehicle. It can only kill it via stripped HP. Others argue it's a penetrating hit that causes d3 HP lost + the vehicle damage chart.

The penetrating hit though is important because, RAW...your friend the Wave Serpent can negate even a roll of a 6 on the D-chart. (The shield reduces a penetrating hit to a glancing hit on a 2+ if it wasn't fired. And it isn't a save...which means the WS shield can stop the D.)

A penetrating hit says -

If a penetrating hit is scored, the vehicle NOT ONLY loses 1 hull point but also suffers additional damage. After deducting any hull points, roll a d6 for each shot that penetrated the vehicles armour and look up the result using the vehicle damage chart.

Destroyer tells us that instead of loosing 1 hull point, you loose D3 for the penetrating hit. You still roll on the chart.

A penetrating hit is still a penetrating hit, as others have said. D simply makes it that the pen causes multiple HP to be stripped.

The order of this would be D weapon rolls to hit (whatever that roll may be), D weapon rolls to see if it scores a pen (2+), if it's a pen you roll your save against it, if the pen still gets through you roll on the damage chart as well as rolling d3 for the hull points, simultaneously (meaning you can wreck it and cause it to explode in the same turn).

As for the wave serpent issue mentioned above, I don't see how the serpent shield negates a D weapon. Sure, it stops you from rolling on the damage chart since it's a glance instead of a pen. But even if the pen is turned into a glance, you still lose the HP, and there's nothing saying that a glancing D weapon suddenly doesn't cause any HP to be lost.... it just won't roll on the pen chart. A 6 on the D chart will still obliterate a wave serpent.

It negates the D3 hull points however, as it goes from a penetrating hit that causes D3 hull points, to a glancing hit. NOthing states that the D3 hull points lost remain.

I thought you dont roll to save until after he rolls to pen? isnt that what page 77 says.

D doesn't roll to pen

 Ascalam wrote:
D doesn't roll to pen

According to the previous post, you do.

According to the rule book you don't .

Instead of rolling for penetration or to wound you roll on the d chart. Some of the results are pens, but you aren't rolling for penetration against the AV.

I'm reading this from the special rules section, under destroyer weapons

Unless I'm missing something?

 kingbobbito wrote:
A penetrating hit is still a penetrating hit, as others have said. D simply makes it that the pen causes multiple HP to be stripped.

The order of this would be D weapon rolls to hit (whatever that roll may be), D weapon rolls to see if it scores a pen (2+), if it's a pen you roll your save against it, if the pen still gets through you roll on the damage chart as well as rolling d3 for the hull points, simultaneously (meaning you can wreck it and cause it to explode in the same turn).

As for the wave serpent issue mentioned above, I don't see how the serpent shield negates a D weapon. Sure, it stops you from rolling on the damage chart since it's a glance instead of a pen. But even if the pen is turned into a glance, you still lose the HP, and there's nothing saying that a glancing D weapon suddenly doesn't cause any HP to be lost.... it just won't roll on the pen chart. A 6 on the D chart will still obliterate a wave serpent.

Destroyer weapon table, BRB pg 163: 2-5 "The Vehicle suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 hull points instead of one" 6 "The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D6+6 hull points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit."


6ed Codex: Eldar Pg 104 "Serpent Shield: Whilst the shields are active, penetrating hits against the front and side armour become glancing hits on a 2+"

BRB Pg 75: "Glancing Hits- If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 hull point."

D-weapon hits wave serpent. If it's a 2-6 it is a penetrating hit. Wave Serpent uses Serpent Shield which is not a save. On a roll of 2+ the penetrating hit (that would cause a loss of D3 HP) becomes a glancing hit. Glancing hits do 1 HP damage.

So yeah...serpent shield stops Destroyer weapons.

If you roll a 6...the Wave Serpent still converts it to a glancing hit on a 2+...and suffers 1 HP of damage.

I would argue though that the serpent still isn't allowed to roll a save against the 1 HP if the roll is a 6.

If the rule for Destroyer Weapons left off "penetrating hit" and just said "causes a hit that causes it to lose X HP" then it wouldn't matter if that hit was pentrating or glancing. It would also remove any argument for whether you roll on the chart or not.

So it does cause a Pen. Why do people say it doesn't ? And on a 2-5, would we roll a save to stop 1 or the D3 ?

You have ONE penetrating hit, so you can only possibly make ONE save.

It does seem wave serpents downgrade the penetrating hit to a glancing hit and therefore remove the (D3/D6+1) effect of a D weapon

But to be fair to gw this might be in the description of the serpent sheild in the new codex

Its clear as is - you only take the D3 instead of 1 on a penetrating hit and as the shield is not a save - it works for any hit from a D weapon.

 Massaen wrote:
Its clear as is - you only take the D3 instead of 1 on a penetrating hit and as the shield is not a save - it works for any hit from a D weapon.

They might mean that in the new codex the new shield will say that it does not work against Destroyer weapons. If the wording otherwise remains the same though, they are the most survivable transports against incoming D-shots.

ConanMan wrote:
It does seem wave serpents downgrade the penetrating hit to a glancing hit and therefore remove the (D3/D6+1) effect of a D weapon

But to be fair to gw this might be in the description of the serpent sheild in the new codex

Nope. Copy and paste. Only thing changed is the gun that shield has.

It is still a glancing hit on a 2+

Who says it doesn't turn it into a glance that deals d3 damage? Sure, the book says glances do 1 damage, but it also says pens do 1 damage. I don't see the argument that it reduces it to 1 damage being any stronger than the argument that says it basically makes it "... a glancing hit that deals d3 damage instead of 1." Neither ruling really has any more RAW support, and the RAI seems obvious (the serpent shield is strong, but not -that- strong). Seems obvious what you should be ruling.

Not sure what the wording on serpent shields is in the new codex.

If it is same as old it would not change the number of hullpoints lost.

it downgrades penetrating hits to glancing hits. But does not state it only causes 1 glancing hit.

The rules for D weapons state they modify the number of hull points lost from 1 to d3 or whatever the 6 roll is.

So the effect would be a glancing hit that causes d3 HPs or whatever a 6 says.

Considering a 6 also says no saves of any kind, rolling a serpent shield roll is preventing the damage, so it is a kind of 'save' otherwise it would not save the WS from the effect. Not sure you can even roll against a 6 on the D table.

A Glancing Hit definitionally does one hull point. A Penetrating Hit also does one hull point. The D rules state that the weapon causes a Penetrating hit which does D3 hull points instead of 1. If the Serpent Shield succeeds in downgrading that to a Glancing Hit, said Penetrating hit is gone, and there's nothing in the rules saying that the glancing hit would do more hull points.

Fluff-wise, it does seem oddly powerful, but rules wise it seems pretty darn clear.

Rolling the Serpent Shield is definitely not a save, as it isn't described as a save. Feel No Pain, for example, is more like a save, in that it entirely negates wounds (as opposed to the Serpent Shield, which doesn't entirely prevent any damage at all), but it's still not treated as a save by the rules.

Feel no Pain is RAW not a save.

Regardless the rules for destroyer clearly state they cause a penetrating hit that causes d3 hp(or more) downgrading the hit to glancing does not state in serpent shield that it cause 1 hp, nor does it state it changes the hp cause to 1.

One could argue that as it is a penetrating hit that causes d3 hp, and not just a penetrating hit( there is a difference between the two) that a serpent shield cannot even roll, as it has no permission to do so.

One could argue that the hit would be allowed to roll for, but the penetrating hit and d3 hp are two separate effects, and downgrading the penetrating hit does not change that it cause d3 hps. As the wording of serpent shield does not state a glancing hit that causes 1 hp, or any similar there is no RAW permission to make the hit go from causing d3 to 1 hp. A normal penetrating hit cause 1 hp+ penetrate roll, if downgraded it would be a glance, serpent shield does not state it changes the amount of hps the glance inflicts. Normally this is 1, but as there is no raw stating it becomes one it would RAW be the same number of hullpoints lost as normally would be caused by the shot, because there is no rule in serpent shield that states it modifies the amount of hullpoints lost.

or rather

Glancing Hits
If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

Penetrating Hits
If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage.

- from the BRB
a penetrating hit does not cause a HP loss, a glancing hit causes a HP loss. If a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit on its own it loses a HP as it would from a glancing hit and rolls on the penetrating hit table.

Therefore by RAW the penetrating hit doesn't modify the amount of hps the vehicle loses [immobilized can..] the amount of hps a vehicle suffers is because it suffered a glancing hit, and the penetrating hit causes the glancing hit hp loss as well as a roll on the pentrating hit table.

end result-
downgrading a penetrating hit to a glancing hit does not modify the amount of HPs lost by the RAW.

Weapon 1 causes effect A
Special rule 2 replaces effect A with effect B

On what basis do you argue that part of effect A should still take place?

By the rules, the shield replaces one thing with another. Unless otherwise stated, if you replace a thing, you replace the whole thing.

The Destroyer weapon rules cause "a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 hull points instead of one". It's one hit with an extra effect. That means if the penetrating hit goes away, so do the potential extra hull points.

glancing hits cause 1 hp of damage
penetrating hits not only loses 1 hp but also suffers additional damage.

the hp loss is tied to any affect.

You even stated it yourself just above.

the effect of the d3 hps loss from a 2-5 is independent of penetrating hit, because the hull point loss is based on the vehicle being at least glanced, if it is penetrated it also suffers additional damage- the roll on the penetration table.

if a serpent shield can downgrade a 2-5 from penetrating to glancing it has no effect on the hp loss as that is not part of the effect of a penetrating hit, but the affect of taking a glancing hit or a penetrating hit.

your interpretation of the D3 hps being tied to being penetrated is flawed because it implies there is no hp loss on a glancing hit. or that the HP loss on a penetrating hit is different than a glancing hit, when RAW it is not.

I don't think you're reading the rulebooks.

A) The rulebook tells us that a glancing hit causes one hull point.
B) The rulebook tells us that a penetrating hit causes one hull point and a roll on the chart.
C) The Destroyer rules tell us that on a 2-5 a penetrating hit is inflicted which causes the target to lose D3 hull points instead of 1. The Destroyer phrasing explicitly makes the d3 part of the penetrating hit. They're not independent effects.
D) The shield rule says replace B with A.

Ergo, no d3.

Not that I think shields need to be any better, but it seems pretty clear and straightforward to me.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I don't think you're reading the rulebooks.

A) The rulebook tells us that a glancing hit causes one hull point.
B) The rulebook tells us that a penetrating hit causes one hull point and a roll on the chart.
C) The Destroyer rules tell us that on a 2-5 a penetrating hit is inflicted which causes the target to lose D3 hull points instead of 1. The Destroyer phrasing explicitly makes the d3 part of the penetrating hit. They're not independent effects.
D) The shield rule says replace B with A.

Ergo, no d3.

Not that I think shields need to be any better, but it seems pretty clear and straightforward to me.

from my previous post:

Glancing Hits
If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

Penetrating Hits
If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage.

which is quoted directly from the rulebook, so I find your comment that I am not reading the rules disingenuous.

The rulebook tells us to roll for Armor Pentration,

If a glancing hit was score the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

If a penetrating hit was scored the vehicle not only loses one hull point, but also suffers additional damage.

The importance here is you are not actually quoting the rules or even considering the rules as written when you make your statements.

The 1 hp from a penetrating hit is the Hp lost from a glancing hit, and the penetrating hit also causes the vehicle to suffer additional damage.

ergo if an attack causes a penetrating hit that does d3 hp instead of 1, the attack caused d3 hp from glancing and causes the vehicle to suffer additional damage from the penetrating hit table.

You are seperating the two effects, when a penetrating hit is tied to the effect of glancing but with an ADDITIONAL affect.

downgrading the penetration to a glance from an attack that does d3HP by the RAW would only remove the ADDITIONAL affect caused by penetrating, which is the roll on the penetrating hit table. the d3 Hp are the HP lost caused by glancing as per the rules for penetrating hit telling you that the HP loss is the same as for glancing- "not only loses one hull point, but also suffers.." This normally never comes into play as this is one of the only things in the game that has a chance to downgrade a penetrating hit.

blaktoof wrote:
from my previous post:

Glancing Hits: If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

Penetrating Hits: If a penetrating hit was scored, the vehicle not only loses 1 Hull Point, but also suffers additional damage.

The rulebook tells us to roll for Armor Pentration,

If a glancing hit was score the vehicle loses 1 Hull Point.

If a penetrating hit was scored the vehicle not only loses one hull point, but also suffers additional damage.

You are seperating the two effects, when a penetrating hit is tied to the effect of glancing but with an ADDITIONAL affect.

Not at all. The two are separate and distinct. They only share a common characteristic, that they each cause a hull point of damage.

If I told you that a person who is paralyzed below the waist cannot walk, and that a person who has had a bilateral amputation not only cannot walk, but also cannot wear shoes, you would not conclude therefore that the latter injury is connected somehow to the prior. They are two separate injuries which each include one matching consequence.

Nothing in the 40k rules somehow defines a Penetrating Hit as a more severe variety of Glancing Hit. It's not a sub-category of Glancing Hit. A given armor penetration roll causes one or the other (or fails to damage at all).

Destroyer weapon table, BRB pg 163: 2-5 "The Vehicle suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 hull points instead of one" 6 "The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D6+6 hull points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit."

6ed Codex: Eldar Pg 104 "Serpent Shield: Whilst the shields are active, penetrating hits against the front and side armour become glancing hits on a 2+"

BRB Pg 75: "Glancing Hits- If a glancing hit was scored, the vehicle loses 1 hull point."

The Penetrating Hit caused by a Destroyer Weapon causes a loss of D3 hull points. That Penetrating Hit "become(s) (goes away and is replaced by) a Glancing Hit, which the rulebook clearly states causes only 1 hull point. Does anything in the Destroyer rules tell us that a Glancing Hit caused by one causes D3 Hull Points? No, it does not. Therefore we must refer back to the normal definition of a Glancing Hit, which the rulebook tells us does 1 hull point.

Vehicles or Infantry, if they have an invulnerable save or Cover Save, roll to save before the roll to see how many hull points/wounds are lost.

So, you hit with the D-Weapon, roll a 2-5, and then roll your invulnerable save. If Captain Smashbane or whomever stops the wound, or Bjorn makes his 5+, you don't roll the D3.