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The Fist of Khorne is a new formation available to Khorne Daemonkin, picture can be found at https://www.facebook.com/BlogForTheBloodGod/photos/pcb.1615905591989614/1615905518656288/?type=1&theater

This thread concerns the second special rule, Hungry for Blood, which says; "... the unit onboard can charge in the turn it disembarks..."

The question arises from the fact that the transport in the formation is essentially a drop pod - it deep strikes and then dudes get out of it. It is also an assault transport already, meaning they can already charge in the turn they disembark. There is confusion as to whether or not this allows for deep striking assaults such as those the blood angels can pull off, because after saying that they can disembark and charge, it doesn't have text to the effect of "ignore the usual rules for deep strike and assault"

To me, the rules either allow for deep strike assault, or literally do nothing at all. I'm wondering what ymdc thinks about this

I'd play it as: can assault turn 1. Anything else makes no sense. It's also reason enough for me to finally get one XD

Start with the actual quote you posted:

"The unit onboard can charge in the turn it disembarks"

To eliminate any pointless ambiguity, simply insert the object the sentence is about into the sentence.

"The unit onboard the fancy drop pod can charge in the turn it disembarks"

Crystal clear, right? It's an insertion platform with the assault vehicle rule that can only arrive by deep striking, and you just granted permission to charge when leaving it.

Lol thats how I read it too, just wanna get it clarified for others who aren't so convinced.

yeah, i dont really see any valid arguement against the zerkers charging the turn they arrive.

The restriction on charging after arriving from Ds would be specifically over ridden by the rule allowing them to charge after disembarking.

considering that this whole thing borders on 500pt to pull off, not even OP, just fun and somewhat usefull


I LOVE IT!

You specifically can't charge when arriving from reserve and this specifically doesn't over ride that.

It is an assault vehicle that is a drop pod that turns into a skimmer. You can drop down, move then assault out of that moving vehicle on turn 2.

Whats the Blood Hungry rule do then?

Nothing forces you to disembark from the Kharybdis the turn it deep strikes in.

So in other words, Turn 1, Kharybdis arrives. Turn 2, the unit disembarks and can charge, courtesy of Blood Hungry and Assault Vehicle.

As written, it's a rule that functionally does nothing.

theres nothing saying they can't get out, either.

Also, if it hits a vehicle or bulding, after the SD hits it lands and is immobilised, forcing the models to disembark.

 Happyjew wrote:
Nothing forces you to disembark from the Kharybdis the turn it deep strikes in.

So in other words, Turn 1, Kharybdis arrives. Turn 2, the unit disembarks and can charge, courtesy of Blood Hungry and Assault Vehicle.

As written, it's a rule that functionally does nothing.

RAW yes, but that's just as silly as saying Dark Angels don't get their buffs against Daemokin.

The rule in no way lets you charge on the turn you deep strike.
It's like the dreadnought drop pod. You can charge out of it, but have to wait a turn inside to do so

..but you could do that anyway. It's an Assault Vehicle.

I know. It's just another in a long list of stupid rules.

But if it really was intended to allow charging on the turn it arrives, you would think it would actually say that. It's not hard to write it that way.

 jokerkd wrote:
I know. It's just another in a long list of stupid rules.

But if it really was intended to allow charging on the turn it arrives, you would think it would actually say that. It's not hard to write it that way.

No they don't write named rules that do nothing. This clearly allows the unit to assault the turn it arrives as the rule does nothing if you assume otherwise.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I know. It's just another in a long list of stupid rules.

But if it really was intended to allow charging on the turn it arrives, you would think it would actually say that. It's not hard to write it that way.

No they don't write named rules that do nothing. This clearly allows the unit to assault the turn it arrives as the rule does nothing if you assume otherwise.

But it doesn't say that though. So it clearly does not

The problem is this is written almost exactly the same as the Lucius pattern drop pod. Despite having the 'assault the turn you disembark' rule on the Lucius, you still can't assault on the turn you deep strike. If it is played the same, then you have to stay on the Kharybdis for a turn, then you can assault out of it on the same turn you disembark.

The difference is that the Lucius pod is not an assault vehicle is it?

**edit. Nvm, I just checked, it has the assault vehicle rule too and also specifically prevents assaulting after deepstriking.
Still, the only reason to have that formation rule is to override assault vehicle (and reserves for that matter). Otherwise it's completely useless and does nothing at all.

 jokerkd wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
I know. It's just another in a long list of stupid rules.

But if it really was intended to allow charging on the turn it arrives, you would think it would actually say that. It's not hard to write it that way.

No they don't write named rules that do nothing. This clearly allows the unit to assault the turn it arrives as the rule does nothing if you assume otherwise.

But it doesn't say that though. So it clearly does not

So what do you believe this named special allows you to do that you wouldn't be able to do if it didn't exist? Please tell me.

Roknar wrote:
The difference is that the Lucius pod is not an assault vehicle is it?

**edit. Nvm, I just checked, it has the assault vehicle rule too and also specifically prevents assaulting after deepstriking.
Still, the only reason to have that formation rule is to override assault vehicle (and reserves for that matter). Otherwise it's completely useless and does nothing at all.

Hey, I originally thought the Lucius could allow a dreadnought to assault the turn it landed (i.e. making a dreadnought useful). But evidently the assault rule doesn't override deepstriking. I guess the berzerkers could hover around in the Kharybdis for a for a turn then assault, which would make it like the Lucius.

Ragnulf wrote:

Roknar wrote:
The difference is that the Lucius pod is not an assault vehicle is it?

**edit. Nvm, I just checked, it has the assault vehicle rule too and also specifically prevents assaulting after deepstriking.
Still, the only reason to have that formation rule is to override assault vehicle (and reserves for that matter). Otherwise it's completely useless and does nothing at all.

Hey, I originally thought the Lucius could allow a dreadnought to assault the turn it landed (i.e. making a dreadnought useful). But evidently the assault rule doesn't override deepstriking. I guess the berzerkers could hover around in the Kharybdis for a for a turn then assault, which would make it like the Lucius.

Which they can do without this rule as the Kharibdyss is an assault vehicle. So what do you think this rule actually does?

Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

Ragnulf wrote:
Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

So what does the rule do? You're saying our interpretation is wrong so what do you think the rule does because a unit can already stay in a Kharibdyss and then assault out of it the following turn. So what does this formation rule do?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ragnulf wrote:
Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

So what does the rule do? You're saying our interpretation is wrong so what do you think the rule does because a unit can already stay in a Kharibdyss and then assault out of it the following turn. So what does this formation rule do?

As written? Absolutely nothing. You can already charge out of it if you did not deep strike, and nothing in the rule grants permission to charge after arriving from reserves, or after arriving by deep strike in a transport.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ragnulf wrote:
Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

So what does the rule do? You're saying our interpretation is wrong so what do you think the rule does because a unit can already stay in a Kharibdyss and then assault out of it the following turn. So what does this formation rule do?

As written? Absolutely nothing. You can already charge out of it if you did not deep strike, and nothing in the rule grants permission to charge after arriving from reserves, or after arriving by deep strike in a transport.

Then your interpretation is wrong. If a rule is broken we have to decide how best to fix it. Just like how RaW Shrike's rule does nothing so we fix it to enable him to join Jump Infantry before deployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ragnulf wrote:
Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

So what does the rule do? You're saying our interpretation is wrong so what do you think the rule does because a unit can already stay in a Kharibdyss and then assault out of it the following turn. So what does this formation rule do?

As written? Absolutely nothing. You can already charge out of it if you did not deep strike, and nothing in the rule grants permission to charge after arriving from reserves, or after arriving by deep strike in a transport.

Then your interpretation is wrong. If a rule is broken we have to decide how best to fix it. Just like how RaW Shrike's rule does nothing so we fix it to enable him to join Jump Infantry before deployment.

That is not my interpretation. RAW the rule does nothing. It's not the first time GW/FW have made a useless rule. The intent is most likely that models can assault out of DS.

I'm reading "I (inexplicably despite past evidence) can't believe Games Workshop wrote a useless rule so in my pain I should be allowed to rewrite the rules of 40k"

Its not the way it works.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Ragnulf wrote:
Doesn't matter what I think. The Kharybdis says you can't assault the turn you deepstrike. It also says you can assault the turn you disembark, which mirrors the rule of the formation. Unless they FAQ the Kharybdis entry or change the formation to allow expressly for assaulting after deep strike, I think it does exactly what the Lucius does. Your berzerkers are not forced to disembark upon on landing but can assault out of it on a subsequent turn.

So what does the rule do? You're saying our interpretation is wrong so what do you think the rule does because a unit can already stay in a Kharibdyss and then assault out of it the following turn. So what does this formation rule do?

As written? Absolutely nothing. You can already charge out of it if you did not deep strike, and nothing in the rule grants permission to charge after arriving from reserves, or after arriving by deep strike in a transport.

Then your interpretation is wrong. If a rule is broken we have to decide how best to fix it. Just like how RaW Shrike's rule does nothing so we fix it to enable him to join Jump Infantry before deployment.

That is not my interpretation. RAW the rule does nothing. It's not the first time GW/FW have made a useless rule. The intent is most likely that models can assault out of DS.

So the RaW is broken, hence we must find another interpretation. RaW in this case is clearly wrong as it doesn't work, just like the Psychic phase or Shrike etc.

After reading all the relevant rules, I think flingit may be right. Though "it cant mean the same" Is not an argument

Assault vehicle rule specifically forbids assaulting from reserves
Hungry for blood does not.

If codex special rules > BRB special rules > general rules, then Hungry for blood overrules the assault vehicle rule and the reserves rule

The daemonette apoc formation is an example of overwriting speacial rules (rending) but is also an example of how easy it is to make it perfectly clear that you can assault from reserve

Specific Codex rules overule general BRB rules do they not ?

Codex says they can assault the turn they disembark. Nothing prevents them from disembarking the turn they arrive.

Consider that not specifically referencing overiding a specific BRB rule may be intentional. It would serve to future proof the codex against possible BRB changes in the next edition.

 adamsouza wrote:
Specific Codex rules overule general BRB rules do they not ?

Codex says they can assault the turn they disembark. Nothing prevents them from disembarking the turn they arrive.

Consider that not specifically referencing overiding a specific BRB rule may be intentional. It would serve to future proof the codex against possible BRB changes in the next edition.

The problem is the rule isn't specific. It's not specifically overriding the BRB rules. And the Codex trumps BRB doesn't matter because there isn't actually a conflict.

The worse part is that the SM formation in the SAME BOOK does the exact same thing but actually was specific about allowing them to deep striking on the turn they arrive from their drop pods.