Zagman's Balance Errata: Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Daemons

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**Zagman**

Welcome ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, children of all ages.

This is the Codex: Chaos Space Marines Balance Errata, a part of the larger 40k Balance Errata. The goal of these Balance Errata is to create a more balanced and varied 40k and can be applied to their respective codex.

Also, to anyone looking at these Balance Errata the goal was to use the lightest hand as possible using points as the primary mechanism of change. Using weapon profile changes as well as Unit Composition more sparingly. Altering model stats even more sparingly, and lastly rewriting or adding new rules only when absolutely necessary.

Note that these changes are replacements unless notates as additions or removals.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines

Spoiler:

Change Log:

Spoiler:

Dataslate: Be'Lekor

Spoiler:

Codex: Chaos Daemons

Spoiler:

Change Log:

Spoiler:

Ok, CSM took a bit more work mainly due to it being one of the worst codices and the formatting of the entries. Instead of redesigning the whole book, I just went through it entry by entry which resulted in quite a bit of txt, my apologies.

Give me your feedback, some things got toned down a little bit ie Flying Black Mace DP and Spell Familiar, while other things got massive buffs ie Possessed, and lots of things got little tweaks, especially where wargear and upgrades are concerned. The end result should be a much more internally and externally balanced Codex. Haha, I bet you could even find a use for Possessed!

Let me have it!

PS Chaos Daemons will be joining this thread in the near future with Khorne Daemonkin! And I promise, only one more thread will pop up. the Astra Militarum, Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus Thread. Sorry about clogging up the forum!

**Dakkamite**

When you do Daemonkin, can you look at the new Fist of Khorne detachment and fix the goddamn Blood Hunger rule?

The nurgle marks seem a bit pricy, but they are the most effective...

Terminator Wargear lightning claw, is this suppost to be a free upgrade over the power sword?

For Terminators and Terminator Wargear combi-flamers, from my experience with Ork kombi-skorchas, a 1pt upgrade for a one shot template is a bit cheap. But take with a grain of salt as our templates are stronger and the delivery systems often better.

**Zagman**

Dakkamite wrote:
When you do Daemonkin, can you look at the new Fist of Khorne detachment and fix the goddamn Blood Hunger rule?

The nurgle marks seem a bit pricy, but they are the most effective...

Terminator Wargear lightning claw, is this suppost to be a free upgrade over the power sword?

For Terminators and Terminator Wargear combi-flamers, from my experience with Ork kombi-skorchas, a 1pt upgrade for a one shot template is a bit cheap. But take with a grain of salt as our templates are stronger and the delivery systems often better.

Thanks for the feedback!

I will definitely look at the rule, I'm not familiar with Khorne Daemonkin, but I figure after CSM and Daemons, that balancing Daemonkin shouldn't be terribly difficult to balance out, especially with good feedback.

Nurgle is the best mark, T4 to T5 is huge, and T5to T6 is even bigger and needs to cost more. In many situations I dropped the cost of the other marks, or even the unit, but either raised or kept the Mark of Nurgle the same. It plan and simple is worth more than even the Tzeentch Mark. And when a unit already had access to an invulnverable save Mark of Tzeentch became more costly as well. And if it is the best, it should be priced appropriately.

I did mean to make it a free upgrade. Its flavorful for a CSM Terminator to have a Lightning claw, and they give up the potential to swap their Combi-Bolter for for a Free Powersword as well, so with Free upgrades they are looking at Lightning Claw + CombiBolter or Dual PowerSwords, so it can cost them that extra attack. LC + CB is the better deal, but extra attack can't be overlooked. I mean a Sorcerer in Termi armor rolling on Biomancy looking for IronArm may prefer dual Power Swords to a Lightning Claw. I guess I could make it a 1pt or 2pt upgrade. I looked at is at Free for Dual Power Weapons, 10pts for Dual Lightning Claws, 20pts for Dual Powerfists. I just realized I forgot to reprice the second Chainfist option...

Yeah, 1pt for a Combi-Flamer is cheap, but they have to give up Twin-Linked on their Combi-Bolter to get it. When a Flamer is priced at 5pts, its not a terrible pricepoint. It probably is too good of a deal, 2pts is probably better, maybe even 3pts. Its definitely far from an autoinclude, especially given the other combi options. I guess I wouldn't be terrible opposed to seeing Chaos ICs running around with with a 1pt one shot Flamer for Wall of Death, haha.

Overall, how do you feel the balance of the book is? Does it make you want to field a CSM army? Or at least make you feel like you could field a competant CSM army?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Added the Chaos Daemons Balance Errata!

**Zagman** · 5-21-15 Added Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: 80pts

5-21-15 Added

Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: 80pts

**Dakkamite**

As someone who wants to run a Terminator horde I gotta say the price decrease is very nice. Otherwise I don't know CSM very well at all

Daemons I'm a little more familiar with, namely the Khorne Daemons. The steep price cut on the walking prince is very interesting indeed and makes me actually consider them. Other price adjustments seem spot on too.

I'll test these rules out with daemonkin at the next opportunity (after Orks of course)

**Zagman**

Dakkamite wrote:
As someone who wants to run a Terminator horde I gotta say the price decrease is very nice. Otherwise I don't know CSM very well at all

Daemons I'm a little more familiar with, namely the Khorne Daemons. The steep price cut on the walking prince is very interesting indeed and makes me actually consider them. Other price adjustments seem spot on too.

I'll test these rules out with daemonkin at the next opportunity (after Orks of course)

Terminators are priced comparitively to the SM ones, a little cheaper as they don't have chapter Tactics or ATSKNF.

Glad you feel the pricing is spot on, should be pretty easy to convert to Khorne Daemonkin as its a copy paste codex and the CSM and Daemons will be a great reference point.

And yes, the Walking DP should be a reasonable alternative. No one would have ever run one before, now it can be justified. That is what internal balance is for, haha! Gotta love options! I look forward to seeing how your playtest goes.

**Filch**

so how do i convince people i can build an army with these low point costs?

Things i like:
can choose to take Defiler and Fiend in pairs. Obliterator in max squad of 4. plasma gun cost as much as a melta gun. hb coats 5pts. can take 20 men blob of marines with 4 hvy guns.

**Zagman**

Filch wrote:
so how do i convince people i can build an army with these low point costs?

Things i like:
can choose to take Defiler and Fiend in pairs. Obliterator in max squad of 4. plasma gun cost as much as a melta gun. hb coats 5pts. can take 20 men blob of marines with 4 hvy guns.

Ask them how they like the new Eldar and Decurion Necrons. Ask them if they feel the game is balanced. Then ask them if they'd rather play a more balanced and varied 40k and give them the Errata for their army as well and the main Errata. Or, state your case that CSM are terrible balanced and need to be brought in line. Also, don't fail to mention the Black Mace DP is more expensive, and Spell Familiar are more expensive and fixed respectively.m burgle bikers are more expensive too.. Point out the much more internally balanced choices. And especially if they play marines, show them that their Errata gives them the same treatment.

Actually, you can take a unit of five Oblits... But I'm questioning with their base costing if Nurgle is a couple of points too inexpensive...

Basically, building armies with these Errata will be much more varied due to better internal balance, lower maximum power across the board, and will yield closer more balanced games as external balance is much closer.

**Dakkamite**

I gotta say, "Mastery Lv.3 - 105pts" made me smile. Its about time that gak got costed appropriately

**Zagman**

Dakkamite wrote:
I gotta say, "Mastery Lv.3 - 105pts" made me smile. Its about time that gak got costed appropriately

In general I've increased the cost of MLs for MCs to 35pts/ML, especially FMCs. Also, for the Furiosos Libriarian Dreadnought to Upgrade to ML2 is 35pts.

Masterly levels on a 2W T3 Herald of Tzeentch should be costed the same as MLs on a Lord of Change. ML aren't universal and should factor in the model the are on. Rolling Biomancy as a Great Unclean one is different than rolling Biomancy as a Herald of Nurgle, etc. And MLs located on FMCs are just nasty.

At least the Daemon Prince is multiple viable builds now, not tooled out ML3 FMC for 300+pts as the only way to go. Who isn't tempted by three footslogging Daemon Princes of Khorne for 270pts instead of 480pts... Shows just how horrible the original costing was.

Any other thoughts on the codex Errata?

**Melevolence**

So I'm clear:

There's no price change to Chaos Marines, Chosen and Cultists (Just asking since there's no price for them)

And Cultists can ONLY take the Mark of Khorn? Or was only that mark's price changed?

**Zagman**

Melevolence wrote:
So I'm clear:

There's no price change to Chaos Marines and Cultists (Just asking since there's no price for them)

And Cultists can ONLY take the Mark of Khorn? Or was only that mark's price changed?

Anything that is not specifically mentioned remains the same. What is listed there is the default change to the entry.

Default is Change unless it specifically mentions adding something or removing something. All other options remain there at their original cost.

**Melevolence**

Zagman wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
So I'm clear:

There's no price change to Chaos Marines and Cultists (Just asking since there's no price for them)

And Cultists can ONLY take the Mark of Khorn? Or was only that mark's price changed?

Anything that is not specifically mentioned remains the same. What is listed there is the default change to the entry.

Default is Change unless it specifically mentions adding something or removing something. All other options remain there at their original cost.

Just checkin!

Edit: Though just a question on the Forgefiend, and it's just a minor thing. Why does the third cannon cost 5 more points? Its the same profile as the other two your replacing the Autocannons with. So, why should it cost 5 points more?

**Zagman**

The first is an upgrade from 2x Hades Autocannons to 2x Extoplasma Cannons. The third is just purchasing an additional weapon and increasing firepower by 50%. Its a full additional weapon system. There is a cost for the Hades Autocannons factored into the Base cost of the Forgefiend, I valued the AP2 Blast more than the Heavy 4 AP4 BS4 with better range, so upgrading worth is 20pts while adding a whole additional weapon system costs 25pts.

Make sense?

**Melevolence**

Zagman wrote:
The first is an upgrade from 2x Hades Autocannons to 2x Extoplasma Cannons. The third is just purchasing an additional weapon and increasing firepower by 50%. Its a full additional weapon system. There is a cost for the Hades Autocannons factored into the Base cost of the Forgefiend, I valued the AP2 Blast more than the Heavy 4 AP4 BS4 with better range, so upgrading worth is 20pts while adding a whole additional weapon system costs 25pts.

Make sense?

I guess? But it just feels weird, and also a tad nonsensical in my mind. Adding more special weapons to marines squads costs the same for each marine you give those weapons too, adding a new 'weapons system' to each marine. Yeah, you're replacing their bolter, but your replacing an inferior weapon with something drastically better. Your increasing the damage output of the entire squad by X% for every special weapon you give them. Same with Havocs. By the logic of increasing damage output per weapon added, each consecutive special weapon should cost more than the previous one.

Edit: Sorry if any of it comes off rude, not trying to be :p Just my thoughts on the matter is all. I understand your reasoning for the cost upgrade, but I feel 20pts is fine for a third weapon. Its the same gun but it also has major drawbacks on a whole. It just makes things feel inconsistent. Especially since it's the only model that can use that weapon profile anyway, so differing costs really makes little sense too.

**Dakkamite**

Zagman wrote:
Dakkamite wrote:
I gotta say, "Mastery Lv.3 - 105pts" made me smile. Its about time that gak got costed appropriately

In general I've increased the cost of MLs for MCs to 35pts/ML, especially FMCs. Also, for the Furiosos Libriarian Dreadnought to Upgrade to ML2 is 35pts.

Masterly levels on a 2W T3 Herald of Tzeentch should be costed the same as MLs on a Lord of Change. ML aren't universal and should factor in the model the are on. Rolling Biomancy as a Great Unclean one is different than rolling Biomancy as a Herald of Nurgle, etc. And MLs located on FMCs are just nasty.

At least the Daemon Prince is multiple viable builds now, not tooled out ML3 FMC for 300+pts as the only way to go. Who isn't tempted by three footslogging Daemon Princes of Khorne for 270pts instead of 480pts... Shows just how horrible the original costing was.

Any other thoughts on the codex Errata?

Are wings on a melee centric Prince of Khorne equal to wings on a shooty or magic FMC?

**Zagman**

Melevolence wrote:
Zagman wrote:
The first is an upgrade from 2x Hades Autocannons to 2x Extoplasma Cannons. The third is just purchasing an additional weapon and increasing firepower by 50%. Its a full additional weapon system. There is a cost for the Hades Autocannons factored into the Base cost of the Forgefiend, I valued the AP2 Blast more than the Heavy 4 AP4 BS4 with better range, so upgrading worth is 20pts while adding a whole additional weapon system costs 25pts.

Make sense?

I guess? But it just feels weird, and also a tad nonsensical in my mind. Adding more special weapons to marines squads costs the same for each marine you give those weapons too, adding a new 'weapons system' to each marine. Yeah, you're replacing their bolter, but your replacing an inferior weapon with something drastically better. Your increasing the damage output of the entire squad by X% for every special weapon you give them. Same with Havocs. By the logic of increasing damage output per weapon added, each consecutive special weapon should cost more than the previous one.

Edit: Sorry if any of it comes off rude, not trying to be :p Just my thoughts on the matter is all. I understand your reasoning for the cost upgrade, but I feel 20pts is fine for a third weapon. Its the same gun but it also has major drawbacks on a whole. It just makes things feel inconsistent. Especially since it's the only model that can use that weapon profile anyway, so differing costs really makes little sense too.

Not rude at all, I have no problem explaining what I changed, although in this case, I didn't change much.

Original Forgefiend was 175pts for Dual Hades Autocannons, Free Upgrade to Dual Ecotoplasmic Cannons. Optional third Cannon for 25pts.
I reduced the stock Forgefiend to 155pts, the Hades Autocannon was a bit overcosted, increased the Dual Ectoplasma upgrades to +20pts for the pair, and kept the Optional third cannon at 25pts.

Original: Each Dual Hades is costed at 25pts, so 50pts for the pair. Each Ectoplasma cannon is costed at 25pts, so 50pts(0pts upgrade) for the pair or 75pts(base 50pt + 0pt upgrade + 25pt 3rd Cannon) for all three.
Errataed: Each Dual Hades is costed at 15pts, so 30pts for the pair. Each Ectoplasma Cannon is costed at 25pts, so 50pts(20pt upgrade) for the pair or 75pts(base 30pt +20pt upgrade + 25pt 3rd Cannon) for all three.

See, I priced each gun at the same price, the cost doesn't scale, but when purchases in the Third Cannon you have to pay full price, because you aren't getting refunded anything for a Hades as you have no third Hades Autocannon to give up. There was no escalating pricing.

Unless you thought that I was pricing it at 20pts per Ectoplasmic Cannon as an upgrade?

Dakkamite wrote:
Zagman wrote:
Dakkamite wrote:
I gotta say, "Mastery Lv.3 - 105pts" made me smile. Its about time that gak got costed appropriately

In general I've increased the cost of MLs for MCs to 35pts/ML, especially FMCs. Also, for the Furiosos Libriarian Dreadnought to Upgrade to ML2 is 35pts.

Masterly levels on a 2W T3 Herald of Tzeentch should be costed the same as MLs on a Lord of Change. ML aren't universal and should factor in the model the are on. Rolling Biomancy as a Great Unclean one is different than rolling Biomancy as a Herald of Nurgle, etc. And MLs located on FMCs are just nasty.

At least the Daemon Prince is multiple viable builds now, not tooled out ML3 FMC for 300+pts as the only way to go. Who isn't tempted by three footslogging Daemon Princes of Khorne for 270pts instead of 480pts... Shows just how horrible the original costing was.

Any other thoughts on the codex Errata?

Are wings on a melee centric Prince of Khorne equal to wings on a shooty or magic FMC?

No, I priced the FMC upgrade to be about equal, 80pts in most all circumstances. In a perfect world Wings on a Shooty for Psyker FMC would be costed a bit more than a Melee version, the cost of the Marks and Psyker Mastery levels covers that. Its not perfect, but significantly better than the original.

**Melevolence**

Zagman wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
Zagman wrote:
The first is an upgrade from 2x Hades Autocannons to 2x Extoplasma Cannons. The third is just purchasing an additional weapon and increasing firepower by 50%. Its a full additional weapon system. There is a cost for the Hades Autocannons factored into the Base cost of the Forgefiend, I valued the AP2 Blast more than the Heavy 4 AP4 BS4 with better range, so upgrading worth is 20pts while adding a whole additional weapon system costs 25pts.

Make sense?

I guess? But it just feels weird, and also a tad nonsensical in my mind. Adding more special weapons to marines squads costs the same for each marine you give those weapons too, adding a new 'weapons system' to each marine. Yeah, you're replacing their bolter, but your replacing an inferior weapon with something drastically better. Your increasing the damage output of the entire squad by X% for every special weapon you give them. Same with Havocs. By the logic of increasing damage output per weapon added, each consecutive special weapon should cost more than the previous one.

Edit: Sorry if any of it comes off rude, not trying to be :p Just my thoughts on the matter is all. I understand your reasoning for the cost upgrade, but I feel 20pts is fine for a third weapon. Its the same gun but it also has major drawbacks on a whole. It just makes things feel inconsistent. Especially since it's the only model that can use that weapon profile anyway, so differing costs really makes little sense too.

Not rude at all, I have no problem explaining what I changed, although in this case, I didn't change much.

Original Forgefiend was 175pts for Dual Hades Autocannons, Free Upgrade to Dual Ecotoplasmic Cannons. Optional third Cannon for 25pts.
I reduced the stock Forgefiend to 155pts, the Hades Autocannon was a bit overcosted, increased the Dual Ectoplasma upgrades to +20pts for the pair, and kept the Optional third cannon at 25pts.

Original: Each Dual Hades is costed at 25pts, so 50pts for the pair. Each Ectoplasma cannon is costed at 25pts, so 50pts(0pts upgrade) for the pair or 75pts(base 50pt + 0pt upgrade + 25pt 3rd Cannon) for all three.
Errataed: Each Dual Hades is costed at 15pts, so 30pts for the pair. Each Ectoplasma Cannon is costed at 25pts, so 50pts(20pt upgrade) for the pair or 75pts(base 30pt +20pt upgrade + 25pt 3rd Cannon) for all three.

See, I priced each gun at the same price, the cost doesn't scale, but when purchases in the Third Cannon you have to pay full price, because you aren't getting refunded anything for a Hades as you have no third Hades Autocannon to give up. There was no escalating pricing.

Unless you thought that I was pricing it at 20pts per Ectoplasmic Cannon as an upgrade?

Dakkamite wrote:
Zagman wrote:
Dakkamite wrote:
I gotta say, "Mastery Lv.3 - 105pts" made me smile. Its about time that gak got costed appropriately

In general I've increased the cost of MLs for MCs to 35pts/ML, especially FMCs. Also, for the Furiosos Libriarian Dreadnought to Upgrade to ML2 is 35pts.

Masterly levels on a 2W T3 Herald of Tzeentch should be costed the same as MLs on a Lord of Change. ML aren't universal and should factor in the model the are on. Rolling Biomancy as a Great Unclean one is different than rolling Biomancy as a Herald of Nurgle, etc. And MLs located on FMCs are just nasty.

At least the Daemon Prince is multiple viable builds now, not tooled out ML3 FMC for 300+pts as the only way to go. Who isn't tempted by three footslogging Daemon Princes of Khorne for 270pts instead of 480pts... Shows just how horrible the original costing was.

Any other thoughts on the codex Errata?

Are wings on a melee centric Prince of Khorne equal to wings on a shooty or magic FMC?

No, I priced the FMC upgrade to be about equal, 80pts in most all circumstances. In a perfect world Wings on a Shooty for Psyker FMC would be costed a bit more than a Melee version, the cost of the Marks and Psyker Mastery levels covers that. Its not perfect, but significantly better than the original.

Ah, gotchya. My brain was registering it was 20pts flat for the gun itself. Didn't take into consideration the other stuff. :p Carry on!

**NotQuintinus**

This looks good, but are we just changing point costs here? The fundamental issue with the Mark of Khorne is that it's just 2 special rules, and one of them (counter charge) just makes more rolling and is overall not very effective. I think that doing +1 Attack would be perfectly fine.

The other issue is that The Mark of Nurgle is just too good, why not just make it Stealth or Shrouded, sort of like how it is in Fantasy and for Daemons.

**Zagman**

Quintinus wrote:
This looks good, but are we just changing point costs here? The fundamental issue with the Mark of Khorne is that it's just 2 special rules, and one of them (counter charge) just makes more rolling and is overall not very effective. I think that doing +1 Attack would be perfectly fine.

The other issue is that The Mark of Nurgle is just too good, why not just make it Stealth or Shrouded, sort of like how it is in Fantasy and for Daemons.

Thanks. Yes, the goal was a rebalancing with the lightest touch possible. Usually just points cost, sometimes weapon profile, stat, or unit composition changes, and very sparring use of changing or adding special rules.

I agree, Mark of Nurgle is very good, but in most cases the Mark of Nurgle is more expensive. I debated making it a 25pt upgrade for the Daemon Prince. Any places you feel it is still too good for its cost, only place you really get to choose it for Daemons is the Daemon Prince.

Mark of Nurge, +1T, for CSM should be better balaanced now.

I agree, the Mark of Khorne is underwhelming in most places, its why it costs very little for most units and units with it built in were more likely to get a decrease in cost, except Hounds. Scouting and two wounds for their cost was extremely good.

**NotQuintinus**

Zagman wrote:
Quintinus wrote:
This looks good, but are we just changing point costs here? The fundamental issue with the Mark of Khorne is that it's just 2 special rules, and one of them (counter charge) just makes more rolling and is overall not very effective. I think that doing +1 Attack would be perfectly fine.

The other issue is that The Mark of Nurgle is just too good, why not just make it Stealth or Shrouded, sort of like how it is in Fantasy and for Daemons.

Thanks. Yes, the goal was a rebalancing with the lightest touch possible. Usually just points cost, sometimes weapon profile, stat, or unit composition changes, and very sparring use of changing or adding special rules.

Sounds good! I just looked over the other threads and yeah, I like what you're doing. Overall everything seems pretty neat and it would make me play a Khorne army again with 17 pt Khorne Berserkers, dang. Keep up the good work!

**Zagman**

Quintinus wrote:
Zagman wrote:
Quintinus wrote:
This looks good, but are we just changing point costs here? The fundamental issue with the Mark of Khorne is that it's just 2 special rules, and one of them (counter charge) just makes more rolling and is overall not very effective. I think that doing +1 Attack would be perfectly fine.

The other issue is that The Mark of Nurgle is just too good, why not just make it Stealth or Shrouded, sort of like how it is in Fantasy and for Daemons.

Thanks. Yes, the goal was a rebalancing with the lightest touch possible. Usually just points cost, sometimes weapon profile, stat, or unit composition changes, and very sparring use of changing or adding special rules.

Sounds good! I just looked over the other threads and yeah, I like what you're doing. Overall everything seems pretty neat and it would make me play a Khorne army again with 17 pt Khorne Berserkers, dang. Keep up the good work!

Thank you, I appreciate the positive feedback. There certainly has been a solid amount of negative feedback. Any suggestions for things that were changed too far, or not far enough? Any potential problems pop up?

I felt I got CSM pretty close with my first draft, there were a couple of nerfs ie Spell Familiar, Black Mace DP, Nurgle(Though I'm not convinced its not undercosted on Oblits though...) pricing ie things that needed it while fixing a lot of the problems with the codex from a cost perspective. I feel that it would read a solid balance point with most of my other Errata.

The goal is to create an errata that really isn't used beyond army list construction. The fewer things that would need to be referenced in the actual game the better.

Any other feedback you may have, positive or negative is welcome. The more quality feedback the better this project goes.

**Slayer le boucher**

Zerkers should have the option for Power weapons in the squad like Black templars and Death Co.

Chaos Rhinos could have an option to be open-topped, either for free or a 5pts discount.

Land Raider should have the PotMS, recall it Infernal Will/Engine and cost is then adapted to 230pts

**Trasvi**

Reading through the Daemons changes... perhaps I'm too stuck in the old points costs to see how the changes play out, or too biased as its my main army, but I'm not convinced.

Hellforged Artefacts
Grimoire of True Names: Add "The Grimoire cannot be used to increase a Daemon's invulnerable save to better than a 3++, if it would it instead improves it to a 3++. If a unit under the affect of the Grimoire is under an effect that would improve its invulnerable save to better than a 3++, it instead is improved to a 3++."

IMO the grimoire isn't so bad until you combine it with Tzeentch Daemon rerolls and/or Fateweaver. There are other ways for Daemon armies to get 2++ saves for large portions of their army (Warp Storm 10 + Cursed Earth + Forewarning. To be honest I think the item would be FAR better off as a simple +1 to your save with no rolls (without the possibility of -1) as that removes some of the randomness and the almost requirement to take Fateweaver along with you.

Daemon Psychic Powers
Discipline of Change
Change To:
"Flickering Fire of Tzeentch..... Warp Charge 1
Flickering Fire of Tzeentch is a witchfire power with the profile given below. For each successfully harnessed Warp Charge beyond the first Flickering Fire of Tzeentch fires and additional D6 shots to a maximum of 4d6 shots."

Significantly more powerful than the current version, as there is no risk now of not succeeding when you go for the full 4D6. Is that the intent?

HQ
Skarbrand: 200pts
Kairos Fateweaver: 330pts
Ku'Gath Plaguefather: 240pts
Bloodthirster: 240pts
With the points reductions for the other daemon princes I would expect Skarbrand / Kugath to go down by closer to 60 points rather than 20. Fateweaver is still a steal comparatively to the other flying psykers

Lord of Change: 250pts
May be upgraded to Psyker (Master Level 3): 35pts
Are these guys in need of nerfing? I haven't seen them around significantly in 7th ed. They're decent enough, but at 305pts for a full kit out they're not overpowered in my experience.
Under your costs they now come to 335 for the same kit - not a terrible change, but not warranted IMO.

Great Uncean One: 180pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts
Keeper of Secrets: 160pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts
Pretty reasonable compared to the DP on foot, but I don't think this will see the comeback of the T6 5+ save MC on foot. GUO sees a bit of play at the moment as a tax on flying Nurgle princes, but KOS is still very squishy

Daemon Prince: 85pts
Must be upgraded to one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: 5pts; Daemon of Tzeentch: 25pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 20pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 15pts
May take Daemonic Flight: 80pts
A Daemon Prince without the Mark of Khorne may take one of the following...Psyker(Mastery Level 1): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 70pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 105pts

I'd make Khorne free; Tzeentch 15, Nurgle 25, Slaanesh 10. Tzeentch's ability is significantly worse in 7th than 6th especially if you're nerfing the grimoire; nurgle's is pretty awesome now as the flying nurgle circus can attest. Slaanesh doesn't get a huge benefit from the abilities as they're already AP2; khorne likewise rarely gets benefit from furious charge as he'll wound most things on 2's anyway, and you want to keep Khorne cheaper than a bloodthirster.

Heralds of Chaos: Change to "Each Primary Detachment in your Army may take two Heralds as a single HQ selection."

The Blue Scribe: 70pts
The Masque of Slaanesh: 70pts
The problem with these guys isn't their abilities, its that they're not heralds. They're actually a steal for what they do - the Blue Scribes can cast Lv3 powers reliably every turn (thats worth 10+ warp charge dice!) and the masque can single-handedly shut down death stars. But Heralds and Daemon Princes do SO MUCH for the Daemon army that you can rarely afford to give up a precious HQ slot to take a non-independent T4 W2 character.

IMO they're far better off with a hefty points bump and give then Independent Character

The Changeling: 55pts
Now this guy, his problem is his abilities. Still a signficantly worse choice than a normal 45 poin herald of tzeetch (as he's an inefficient use of a HQ slot) except in extremely niche situations where you are in combat with a single model combat monster who for some reason doesn't possess any weapon wargear or other special abilities... ie, never. Put this guy at 25 points and he still won't be used

Skulltaker: 90pts
May take a Juggernaut of Khorne: 35pts
Skulltaker suffers from: a) a lack of AP2 (compared to Herald of Khorne), b) a dumb locus (as he's generally on a Juggernaut with Hounds. This gets more pronounced if you go down to 2 heralds per slot as you need to be really choosy, whereas before he was a not-terrible choice after 2 Tzeentch + 1 Khorne

Karanak: 100pts
Good change if people start to run bloodcrushers after your changes

Herald of Khorne
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Abjuration: 5pts; Greater Locus of Fury: 15pts; Exalted Locus of Wrath: 15pts;
May take one of the following... Juggernaut of Khorne 35pts; Blood Throne of Khorne as a Dedicated Transport: 65pts;
approved

Herald of Tzeentch
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 25pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 55pts
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Transmogrification: 5pts; Greater Locus of Change: 10pts; Exalted Locus of Conjuration: 20pts;
I'm starting to see a pattern with nearly all the changes. Just like one of your central premises starting the Daemons codex was that MLs on MC's need to be more expensive - so to do upgrades for everyone else based on their speed. Herald of Tzeentch on Disc is a significantly different beast to one without; so to for a Khorne Herald on/off Juggernaut.

Epidemius: 100pts
Herald of Nurgle
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 25pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 55pts
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Virulence: 5pts; Greater Locus of Fecundity: 20pts; Exalted Locus of Contagion: 20pts;
May take one of the following... Palanquin of Nurgle: 30pts;
Herald of Slaanesh
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Grace: 5pts; Greater Locus of Swiftness: 15pts; Exalted Locus of Beguilement: 25pts;
Sure, why not

Troops
Bloodletters of Khorne: 90pts, 9pts/model
One Bloodletter may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Bloodletter may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaso may be upgraded to a Banner of Blood: 5pts;

Plaguebearers of Nurgle
One Plaguebearer may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Plaguebearer ay take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Plague Banner: 5pts;

Daemonettes of Slaanesh
One Daemonetter may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Daemonette may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Rapturous Standard: 5pts;
Sure, why not

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
Psyker: Change to "Pink Horrors do not generate Psychic Powers as normal, instead they know Flicker Fires of Tzeentch."
One Pink Horror may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Pink Horror may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Blasted Standard: 5pts;
Still not sure these guys are fixed. If this takes away their current method of generating warp charges as well, they're pretty terrible now. Effectively you get 1.5 heavy bolters for 90 points. If you leave the warp charges intact, you're leaving them open to being warp charge batteries still.

Nurglings: 39pts, 13pt/base
Probably necessary for their current abilities, but considering they're most often taken as the cheapest Troops Tax I feel there might be a better way to fix them

Elites
Bloodcrushers of Khorne: 120pts/ 40pts/model
One Bloodcrusher may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Bloodcrusher may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Banner of Blood: 5pts;
Banner of Blood is probably worth a lot more for these guys: with 12" move, and fleet, they're averaging a 10" charge for trivial investment. Similarly for the Icon - having a homing beacon 30" up the field on your second turn is nothing to sneeze at. I don't know if that justifies a 10pt cost, but its something to think about.

Beast of Nurgle: 48pts; 48pts/model
Fiends of Slaanesh: 99pts, 33pts/model
My immediate reaction is meh.
Fiends have about the durability of 3 Seekers, but the damage output of 1. Maybe at 25pts / model so a Slaanesh Herald + Fiends fills about the same role as Tzeentch Herald + Screamers.
Never had much experience with the Beasts.

Fast Attack
Flesh Hounds of Khorne: 90pts, 18pts/model
I definitely wouldn't go over this cost
Screamers of Tzeentch: 81pts, 27pts/model
As some of the most reliable anti-tank in the army, it almost sucks that their other special rules and purpose as ablative wounds for Disc Heralds makes them so good. Fair cost

Plague Drones of Nurgle
One Plague Drone may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts
A different plague Drone may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded too a Plague Banner: 5pts
Yeah the banner definitely needs to cost more here. Its gone from a 40pt upgrade down to 10: on models with easy access to instant death, AP2, numerous psychic buffs and loci... These guys are really good (as Nick Nanavati is showing)

Chaos Furies: 50pts, 5pts/model
Unit Composition: 10 Chaos Furies
The entire unit may be upgraded to one of the following... Daemons of Khorne: 1pt/model; Daemons on Tzeentch: 1pt/model; Daemons of Nurgle: 2pts/model; Daemons of Slaanesh: 2pts/model
At 6pts vs 18pts, your new cost makes Furies comparable with Flesh Hounds until you get to Instability. At ld2, these guys will disappear the moment they lose combat by even one. With less access to heralds than before, this is not good and they won't be taken over the more self-sufficient options.

Seekers of Slaanesh
One Seeker of Slaanesh may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts
A different Seeker of Slaanesh may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Rapturous Standard: 5pts
similar to Bloodcrushers

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder
Must take one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: Free; Daemon of Tzeentch: 10pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 20pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 20pts
Must take one of the Following... Baleful Torrent: 15pts; Warp Gaze: 20pts
May take a Warpsword: 10pts
MUST take torrent or gaze, but no option for Phlegm?

Skull Cannon of Khorne: 100pts
Definitely approve. At 100pts its grenade ability is viable
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: 80pts
Give it AV11 front and maybe side and you have a deal. Its main issue is that it can be taken out or neutralized by a few stray bolter shots

**Zagman**

Trasvi wrote:
Reading through the Daemons changes... perhaps I'm too stuck in the old points costs to see how the changes play out, or too biased as its my main army, but I'm not convinced.

Hellforged Artefacts
Grimoire of True Names: Add "The Grimoire cannot be used to increase a Daemon's invulnerable save to better than a 3++, if it would it instead improves it to a 3++. If a unit under the affect of the Grimoire is under an effect that would improve its invulnerable save to better than a 3++, it instead is improved to a 3++."

IMO the grimoire isn't so bad until you combine it with Tzeentch Daemon rerolls and/or Fateweaver. There are other ways for Daemon armies to get 2++ saves for large portions of their army (Warp Storm 10 + Cursed Earth + Forewarning. To be honest I think the item would be FAR better off as a simple +1 to your save with no rolls (without the possibility of -1) as that removes some of the randomness and the almost requirement to take Fateweaver along with you.

5++ to 3++ is still extremely useful and potent. You are right, the problem is Tzeentch, if it wasn't for their Reroll 1's ability none of these stipulation would be necessary. I still see it as an effective use for 30pts, and it means one unit isn't reliant on Psychic powers for chance to become extremely durable. I have a feeling that when the book was written, they the general assumption it was going to be used to take a 5++ to a 3++. For 30pts it is still a steal for the durability it can bring a unit, especially TZeentch.

Daemon Psychic Powers
Discipline of Change
Change To:
"Flickering Fire of Tzeentch..... Warp Charge 1
Flickering Fire of Tzeentch is a witchfire power with the profile given below. For each successfully harnessed Warp Charge beyond the first Flickering Fire of Tzeentch fires and additional D6 shots to a maximum of 4d6 shots."

Significantly more powerful than the current version, as there is no risk now of not succeeding when you go for the full 4D6. Is that the intent?

It was the intent, yes. Esepcially as Horrors are now a fixed power and are not rolling. Also, it takes a significant investment in Warp Charges to really dish out the damage.

HQ
Skarbrand: 200pts
Kairos Fateweaver: 330pts
Ku'Gath Plaguefather: 240pts
Bloodthirster: 240pts
With the points reductions for the other daemon princes I would expect Skarbrand / Kugath to go down by closer to 60 points rather than 20. Fateweaver is still a steal comparatively to the other flying psykers

I agree, I considered dropping them down more, I was leaning more towards 40pts. I agree, Fateweaver is still a steal, but closer now that he can't get a 2++rerollable.

Lord of Change: 250pts
May be upgraded to Psyker (Master Level 3): 35pts
Are these guys in need of nerfing? I haven't seen them around significantly in 7th ed. They're decent enough, but at 305pts for a full kit out they're not overpowered in my experience.
Under your costs they now come to 335 for the same kit - not a terrible change, but not warranted IMO.

I valued Psychic Mastery levels for MCs at 35pts/level. Just adjusted for consistency. I still see it as a solid and balanced option.

Great Uncean One: 180pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts
Keeper of Secrets: 160pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts
Pretty reasonable compared to the DP on foot, but I don't think this will see the comeback of the T6 5+ save MC on foot. GUO sees a bit of play at the moment as a tax on flying Nurgle princes, but KOS is still very squishy

I definitly considered dropping them a few more points, I didn't want to go too far. I was thinking another 10-20pts for each. I really adjusted Foot MCs down 20pts but don't think that was enough. These also got adjusted back due to being MCs with Masterly levels. I'm definitly leaning towards at least a 10-20pts additional decrease.

Daemon Prince: 85pts
Must be upgraded to one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: 5pts; Daemon of Tzeentch: 25pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 20pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 15pts
May take Daemonic Flight: 80pts
A Daemon Prince without the Mark of Khorne may take one of the following...Psyker(Mastery Level 1): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 70pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 105pts

I'd make Khorne free; Tzeentch 15, Nurgle 25, Slaanesh 10. Tzeentch's ability is significantly worse in 7th than 6th especially if you're nerfing the grimoire; nurgle's is pretty awesome now as the flying nurgle circus can attest. Slaanesh doesn't get a huge benefit from the abilities as they're already AP2; khorne likewise rarely gets benefit from furious charge as he'll wound most things on 2's anyway, and you want to keep Khorne cheaper than a bloodthirster.

Nurgles probably still is the clear winner, I'll definitely drop Tzeentch down to 20pts and move Nurgle up to 25pts or even 30pts. Slaanesh ability are pretty solid, but maybe 10pts is more appropraite. I'll think about Khorne being free... 90pts is still solid for a Khorne DP.

Heralds of Chaos: Change to "Each Primary Detachment in your Army may take two Heralds as a single HQ selection."

The Blue Scribe: 70pts
The Masque of Slaanesh: 70pts
The problem with these guys isn't their abilities, its that they're not heralds. They're actually a steal for what they do - the Blue Scribes can cast Lv3 powers reliably every turn (thats worth 10+ warp charge dice!) and the masque can single-handedly shut down death stars. But Heralds and Daemon Princes do SO MUCH for the Daemon army that you can rarely afford to give up a precious HQ slot to take a non-independent T4 W2 character.

IMO they're far better off with a hefty points bump and give then Independent Character

I agree, not being heralds is their biggest limiter. An Daemons are really strapped in the HQ slot mostly. But, we live in the world of multiple CADs, ADs, etc and Heralds are certainly on par with many other single codice choices. The big one was Heralds of Tzeentch, being able to stuff relatively inexpensive Warp charges into a list like no other. It is still possible to get 4 Heralds in your Primary, but then you are running 4x Heralds and need an AD for a different HQ selection.

The Changeling: 55pts
Now this guy, his problem is his abilities. Still a signficantly worse choice than a normal 45 poin herald of tzeetch (as he's an inefficient use of a HQ slot) except in extremely niche situations where you are in combat with a single model combat monster who for some reason doesn't possess any weapon wargear or other special abilities... ie, never. Put this guy at 25 points and he still won't be used

I didn't want to dive into changing the character too much, and just balparked a better price. I have no qualms with dropping his cost more, and I'd prefer that to a unit rewrite.

Skulltaker: 90pts
May take a Juggernaut of Khorne: 35pts
Skulltaker suffers from: a) a lack of AP2 (compared to Herald of Khorne), b) a dumb locus (as he's generally on a Juggernaut with Hounds. This gets more pronounced if you go down to 2 heralds per slot as you need to be really choosy, whereas before he was a not-terrible choice after 2 Tzeentch + 1 Khorne

There are simply a lot of HQs to choose from in Daemons. I think he isn't bad for his cost, he also suffers from a lot of the price problems of unique characters, most of which I didn't address too closely and skimmed over. Unmodified, what price do you feel his cost should be?

Karanak: 100pts
Good change if people start to run bloodcrushers after your changes

Good, the price point felt right.

Herald of Khorne
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Abjuration: 5pts; Greater Locus of Fury: 15pts; Exalted Locus of Wrath: 15pts;
May take one of the following... Juggernaut of Khorne 35pts; Blood Throne of Khorne as a Dedicated Transport: 65pts;
approved

Glad to hear it.

Herald of Tzeentch
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 25pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 55pts
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Transmogrification: 5pts; Greater Locus of Change: 10pts; Exalted Locus of Conjuration: 20pts;
I'm starting to see a pattern with nearly all the changes. Just like one of your central premises starting the Daemons codex was that MLs on MC's need to be more expensive - so to do upgrades for everyone else based on their speed. Herald of Tzeentch on Disc is a significantly different beast to one without; so to for a Khorne Herald on/off Juggernaut.

It wasn't necessarily an upgrade based on speed, more on ML3. Going from ML2 to ML3 is worth more than going from ML1 to 2. Having that third power and going from two rolls to a third roll ie 33% to 50% chance of a power is big and should be worth a bit more. There weren't many other units with such an upgrade, and I felt the 35/level for MCs would override that.

Epidemius: 100pts
Herald of Nurgle
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 25pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 55pts
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Virulence: 5pts; Greater Locus of Fecundity: 20pts; Exalted Locus of Contagion: 20pts;
May take one of the following... Palanquin of Nurgle: 30pts;
Herald of Slaanesh
May take one of the following... Lesser Locus of Grace: 5pts; Greater Locus of Swiftness: 15pts; Exalted Locus of Beguilement: 25pts;
Sure, why not
Just applied consistent changes to him, and he was just too expensive base.

Troops
Bloodletters of Khorne: 90pts, 9pts/model
One Bloodletter may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Bloodletter may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaso may be upgraded to a Banner of Blood: 5pts;

Plaguebearers of Nurgle
One Plaguebearer may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Plaguebearer ay take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Plague Banner: 5pts;

Daemonettes of Slaanesh
One Daemonetter may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Daemonette may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Rapturous Standard: 5pts;
Sure, why not

Just made the options costed at a consistent pricepoint I felt they'd be potentially purchased.

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch
Psyker: Change to "Pink Horrors do not generate Psychic Powers as normal, instead they know Flicker Fires of Tzeentch."
One Pink Horror may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Pink Horror may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Blasted Standard: 5pts;
Still not sure these guys are fixed. If this takes away their current method of generating warp charges as well, they're pretty terrible now. Effectively you get 1.5 heavy bolters for 90 points. If you leave the warp charges intact, you're leaving them open to being warp charge batteries still.

Yes, their ability to be a warp charge battery is still in tact, but by eliminating their ability to roll for powers we speed up pregame, and limit what they can do. They are priced appropriately for Warp Charges and without the felxibility and power rolling for powers brought it feels like a simple solution in line with how they were originally designed. Using them as additional summon platforms, and forcing rolling for powers even when generated bogged things down needlessly.

Nurglings: 39pts, 13pt/base
Probably necessary for their current abilities, but considering they're most often taken as the cheapest Troops Tax I feel there might be a better way to fix them

How about dropping cost and upgrading minimum model count. Raises "Tax" price, but gives you more bang for your buck?

Elites
Bloodcrushers of Khorne: 120pts/ 40pts/model
One Bloodcrusher may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts;
A different Bloodcrusher may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts;
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Banner of Blood: 5pts;
Banner of Blood is probably worth a lot more for these guys: with 12" move, and fleet, they're averaging a 10" charge for trivial investment. Similarly for the Icon - having a homing beacon 30" up the field on your second turn is nothing to sneeze at. I don't know if that justifies a 10pt cost, but its something to think about.

I felt these guys needed the boost, is the cost drop and the cheap banner too much? And I wasn't opposed to keeping the banner costs consistent. At least there are now potential uses for Bloodcrushers, can't sway I've seen them used on a table in anything more than a "fun" list. Was this too much compared to other choices?

Beast of Nurgle: 48pts; 48pts/model
Fiends of Slaanesh: 99pts, 33pts/model
My immediate reaction is meh.
Fiends have about the durability of 3 Seekers, but the damage output of 1. Maybe at 25pts / model so a Slaanesh Herald + Fiends fills about the same role as Tzeentch Herald + Screamers.
Never had much experience with the Beasts.

Food for thought, I'm to opposed to making Fiends cheaper. Beasts I feld needed some drop, I haven't used them and will need to look at dropping the cost more. These were two units I just didn't have any desire to put on the table.

Fast Attack
Flesh Hounds of Khorne: 90pts, 18pts/model
I definitely wouldn't go over this cost
I felt they were just a hair too inexpensive for Dual wonds, invulvn, and Scout. I heavily debated 17 or 18pts and never considered more.

Screamers of Tzeentch: 81pts, 27pts/model
As some of the most reliable anti-tank in the army, it almost sucks that their other special rules and purpose as ablative wounds for Disc Heralds makes them so good. Fair cost

I know, right? They were a solid unit that was more than viable alone, but Heralds and 2++ Rerollable ruined any other use for the unit because why would you not.

Plague Drones of Nurgle
One Plague Drone may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts
A different plague Drone may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded too a Plague Banner: 5pts
Yeah the banner definitely needs to cost more here. Its gone from a 40pt upgrade down to 10: on models with easy access to instant death, AP2, numerous psychic buffs and loci... These guys are really good (as Nick Nanavati is showing)

I didn't even think about the potential synergy there, good catch. I was going for consistency but didn't realize how cheap I had made that. It is too inexpensive compared to Rot Probiscus too. Good catch.

Chaos Furies: 50pts, 5pts/model
Unit Composition: 10 Chaos Furies
The entire unit may be upgraded to one of the following... Daemons of Khorne: 1pt/model; Daemons on Tzeentch: 1pt/model; Daemons of Nurgle: 2pts/model; Daemons of Slaanesh: 2pts/model
At 6pts vs 18pts, your new cost makes Furies comparable with Flesh Hounds until you get to Instability. At ld2, these guys will disappear the moment they lose combat by even one. With less access to heralds than before, this is not good and they won't be taken over the more self-sufficient options.
What about as cheap harassment units? I mean at their cost they are significantly better than before, but is it enouh?

Seekers of Slaanesh
One Seeker of Slaanesh may take an Instrument of Chaos: 5pts
A different Seeker of Slaanesh may take an Icon of Chaos: 5pts
The Icon of Chaos may be upgraded to a Rapturous Standard: 5pts
similar to Bloodcrushers

Additional uses are good, they definitely were a less used Fast attack.

Heavy Support
Soul Grinder
Must take one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: Free; Daemon of Tzeentch: 10pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 20pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 20pts
Must take one of the Following... Baleful Torrent: 15pts; Warp Gaze: 20pts
May take a Warpsword: 10pts
MUST take torrent or gaze, but no option for Phlegm?
Phlegm is still there, with no adjustment it remains its normal cost and option. I think Nurgle might still be too cheap here, thoughts?

Skull Cannon of Khorne: 100pts
Definitely approve. At 100pts its grenade ability is viable
Glad you approve, I hadno experience with ever fielding it and had to guess.
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch: 80pts
Give it AV11 front and maybe side and you have a deal. Its main issue is that it can be taken out or neutralized by a few stray bolter shots

I didn't really know where to go with the Chariots. I didn't think I went far enough either.

Thank you for the awesome feedback, this kind of feedback is a huge help for the project. Every player has different expertises and experiences and the more involment and discussion we have the closer each Errata will be towards achieving the goals of this project.

Keep the advice coming!

**Zagman**

6-2-15 Changed To

Skarbrand: 180pts
Kairos Fateweaver: 350pts
Ku'Gath Plaguefather: 220pts
Bloodthirster: 240pts

Lord of Change: 250pts
May be upgraded to Psyker (Master Level 3): 35pts

Great Uncean One: 170pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts

Keeper of Secrets: 150pts
May be upgraded to one of the following... Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 70pts

Daemon Prince: 85pts
Must be upgraded to one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: 5pts; Daemon of Tzeentch: 20pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 30pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 15pts
May take Daemonic Flight: 80pts
A Daemon Prince without the Mark of Khorne may take one of the following...Psyker(Mastery Level 1): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 70pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 105pts

Heralds of Chaos: Change to "Each Detachment in your Army may take two Heralds as a single HQ selection."

6-2-15 Changed To

The Changeling: 35pts

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are the thoughts about having two levels of wings for FMCs?

40pts for FMC Gliding Only
80pts for Swooping/Gliding

This would be congruent with Hive Tyrants. Gives a unit a way to become effectively a Jump MC with Jink without full FMC status.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Added Be'Lakor

Dataslate: Be'Lekor

Spoiler:

Be'Lekor: 360pts
Shadow Form: Change To "Be'Lakor has a 4+ Invulnerable Save and the Stealth Special rule. Furthermore, Be'Lakor automatically passes Dangerous Terrain Tests."

6-2-15 Change To

Nurglings: 55pts, 11pt/base
Unit Composition: 5 Nurglin Swarms
May include up to five additional Nurgling Bases.... 11pts/base

**lustigjh**

I believe Pink Horrors should at the very least have access to all of Tzeentch's discipline. If this requires nerfing of their warp charge generation then so be it - I'd rather give them some means of varied offense than have easy warp charges.

**Zagman**

lustigjh wrote:
I believe Pink Horrors should at the very least have access to all of Tzeentch's discipline. If this requires nerfing of their warp charge generation then so be it - I'd rather give them some means of varied offense than have easy warp charges.

That is an option, but the goal was to reduce Daemon Pregame in addition to balancing out Horrors. Sure, they are still relatively inexpensive WC batteries, but now they don't bog down pregame and done have access a wide array of Malefic powers, which IMO was problematic.

Now opponents have less units to worry about what powers they have, and the game will run a lot smoother. I really don't want to have to roll for Horrors pregame anymore on either side. And this gives them a good offenseive shooting attack so they are less likely to be supply WC for others and more likely for themselves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

6-4-15 Change To

Daemon Prince: 85pts
Must be Upgraded to a...Daemon of Khorne: 5pts; Daemon of Tzeentch: 15pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 20pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 10pts
May take up to 3 Master Levels: 35pts/level
May take Wings*: 80pts
*A Deamon Prince with Wings cannot also have Power Armor.

6-4-15 Change To

Daemon Prince: 85pts
Must be upgraded to one of the Following... Daemon of Khorne: 5pts; Daemon of Tzeentch: 20pts; Daemon of Nurgle: 30pts; Daemon of Slaanesh: 15pts
May take Daemonic Flight*: 80pts
*A Daemon Prince with Daemonic Flight may not also take Warp-forged Armor.
A Daemon Prince without the Mark of Khorne may take one of the following...Psyker(Mastery Level 1): 35pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 2): 70pts; Psyker(Mastery Level 3): 105pts

**Dakkamite**

Any progress on daemonkin? I could just run it with khorne only elements from the two codexes here, but would rather do it properly. Main issues that daemonkin have that I am aware of are;

-If Mark of Khorne is mandatory through the whole army, it should be cheaper than usual
-Why is Axe of Khorne 30pts in Khornes own army list when its only 10pts in a vanilla Daemon army
-Lack of clarity for summoned bloodthirsters landing on the turn they arrive. Can lead to monsters being summoned and spending like three turns floating around being useless.
-Feel No Pain seems to be the best Tithe choice even when you've got enough to summon a big fat daemon.
-Likewise the first tithe choice gives out Rage and Furious Charge - *every* model in the army has one or the other of these, making it somewhat redundant
-No access to the Khornate characters - Kharn, Skarbrand etc.
-Cannot take Daemon Princes in the Heavy slot by fielding a Bloodthirster.
-Possessed are terrible and use the normal terrible possessed mutation chart rather than either the good one from Crimson Slaughter or a Khorne specific one. Same deal to a lesser extent for spawn.

Gonna have my first game of Zaghammer with Orks this weekend and then the next one I'll test the daemon rules

**Dakkamite**

To get the ball rolling on a DK errata, here's my suggestion;

Gear and Model Points
See Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons errata
~Daemon Prince: 90pts
Add: Mark of Khorne

New Unit Entries
Add; Kharn the Betrayer, Skarbrand, Karanak as HQ.
Obviously the Khorneate special characters should be available to the Khorne army.
Add: Up to four Heralds of Khorne may be taken as one HQ choice. Skulltaker and Karanak count as Heralds for this purpose.
As Chaos Daemons
Add: If a Bloodthirster is taken, then Daemon Princes with the Mark of Khorne may be taken as Heavy Support.
As Chaos Daemons

Blood for the Blood God
Blood Tithe points are generated whenever a unit containing at least one model with this special rule destroys a unit or is destroyed. In addition, generate a point when a character with this ability issues a challenge which is declined, or kills a character in a challenge.

There is no maximum for tithe points. If you expend any tithe points then any remaining points are removed at the end of the turn. You may purchase multiple different rewards in the same turn.

Have removed the clause that meant any unit with a champion that died generated two tithe points. Added the ability to get tithe if your opponent declines a challenge - who would accept one knowing it will be points for the enemy? A cap on tithe and one tithe power per turn are worse IMO than unlimited tithe and several powers per turn, because of their inability to scale up and the incentive to only pop larger powers since if you have eight tithe, every power is effectively the same price. If this seems too powerful then at least the "all tithe points are expended whenever you buy any reward" thing should go.

Tithe Rewards;
~2 Insatiable Bloodlust: All friendly units with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule have the Furious Charge, Rage and Counterattack rules until the start of your next turn
The effect of this reward seems to be to give a unit the abilities of both the Mark and the Daemon of Khorne traits. So I figured that considering every model in the army is going to miss out one or the other of these buffs, they might as well recieve the whole package.

~3 Unstoppable Ferocity: ...Daemon Engines recieve a +1 to their invulnerable saves
The durability boost should not be limited only to living creatures - daemon engines should most certainly have a slight buff as well

~7 Dark Apotheosis: ...if the test is passed, a Daemon Prince equipped with Warp Forged Armour and Daemonic Flight is summoned within 6" of the character. Contrary to the usual rules for summoning/deep striking a model with Wings, the Daemon Prince may choose to arrive in Gliding Mode.

~8: Fury Unbound: ...if the test is passed, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned within 6" of the character. Contrary to the usual rules for summoning/deep striking a model with Wings, the Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury may choose to arrive in Gliding Mode.
Removed any issues about summoned thirsters and princes mucking about in the sky for like two whole turns before they can even assault. Stupid in Khornes melee army

Wargear
~Axe of Khorne: 10pts
My logic is, if Chaos Daemons can get Axe of Khorne for 10pts, then obviously Daemonkin can too.
~Kor'lath, the Axe of Ruin [Relic]: ...Caged Fury: If the bearer of the Axe of Ruin is reduced to 0 Wounds or is otherwise removed as a casualty, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned within 6" of the character before he is removed as a casualty. Contrary to the usual rules for summoning/deep striking a model with Wings, the Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury may choose to arrive in Gliding Mode.
Same deal as before - can choose to arrive grounded, more vulnerable to attack but can assault next turn instead of two turns later.

Formations
~Fist of Khorne: ...The Berserkers embarked upon the Kharydbis Assault Claw may assault on the turn they arrive from deep strike.
A simple fix for yet another issue arising from poorly written or designed rules.

Changelog:
30/06/2015:
Daemon Princes no longer pay for Daemon of Khorne, but instead have a 5pt upgrade for Mark of Khorne as well built into their price.
Tithe 3 [Unstoppable Ferocity] now adds +1 to the invuln saves of all daemon engines in addition to FNP on your units.