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Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

This is meant as a tactical discussion on alpha strike based armies, both tactics for use by alpha strike armies and tactics to use against alpha strike armies.

I believe this topic is of greater importance than ever before in the game. These most recent codex lists have been mostly armies which are very high damage output but either low in model numbers and/or low defenses. Examples of these are CWE, Skitarii, and the new War Convocation formation. Each of these armies can alpha strike an unprepared force nearly off the table in 1-2 turns but when they fight each other the roll for turn 1 or a seize the initiative roll can win the game. For the purposes of discussion let's look at some of the army lists I have seen used lately on frontlinegaming batreps as they are easy to find and pull and I like Reece and Frankie and their antics, plus you can read or watch them in use if you want.
Skitarii
War Convocation vs. Eldar
As you can see all of these armies have an absolutely brutal alpha strike. In fact if both armies deploys and one army shoots first the other army will lose 50%+ of their entire army on turn 1. This is because all three armies share some key factors; 1) fragile, 2) extreme damage output, and 3) synergy. On fact these armies can and will kill most armies in the game with their alpha strike and leave unprepared players shaking their heads in frustration as they pick models off the board. However this was not a predestined outcome all of that woe could have been avoided if the person going second uses the appropriate strategies and includes the tools they need to survive. It is much like taking units to deal with DSing scorers and taking anti tank. Extreme alpha strikes have become a strategy that needs to be considered not just during deployment but even in the list building stage.

BTW one mistake I have seen a lot of so far is with Canticles of the Omnissiah. People have been completely ignoring the underlined portions and thus taking the highest benefit from the canticles where they should not.
the strength of each Canticle will vary according to the number of units performing it. At the start of your turn, add up the number of friendly units on the battlefield that have the Canticles of the Omnissiah special rule and apply the appropriate level of effect. Do not include units that are currently Falling Back in this total.
This is making the rule ridiculously broken in several of the games I have seen. For example Reece deployed his destroyers in drop pods then claimed the max benefit from his canticle turn 1 when he had only had 4 qualified units on the battlefield at the start of his turn. This is the cost of using reserves with this formation. (just a specific example, the war convocation is ridiculously hard to remember all the rules for)

With such extreme armies how do you deal with not going first or how do you survive not bringing one of these above lists? The key word is planning, ie bring the tools you need. These tools should be some combination of; 1) extreme durability, 2) fight from reserves, 3) out of range/LoS, or 4) ensure turn 1.

1) Extreme Durability
IMO this is best demonstrated by the typical nids flyrant builds. The basic strategy is to start the game and take turn 1 or seize the initiative alpha strikes on a 2+ cover save usually from a source of shrouding and ruins/fortifications. They then have their flyrants go into swooping where they become extremely durable even without the higher cover save. This strategy needs fixing against the three armies above as each army has a way to kill the malanthrope, reduce cover save, and/or shoot flyrants out despite the 2+ cover save. However other armies can successfully implement this strategy.
IG is one of those that can use a version of extreme durability even against the three lists above. How they do this is with artillery units behind an ADL and the order get back into the fight to let the artillery fire turn 1. This usually equates to 20+ wounds of T7 Sv2+ that the opponent has to deal with to meaningfully reduce the return firepower.
Interestingly enough the War Convocation can also perform a version of this centered around an ADL and using Incantation of the Iron Soul to gain fearless to pop their GtG units back up to shoot normally (or take the snap fire BS2 relic and just stay GtG against a flyrant based list, ).

2) Fight from Reserves
The skitarii list starts in drop pods so they have actually planned for this in their list building stage. The other two lists give this a nod with the war convocation starting some of their stuff in pods and the CWE list including an autarch to help with reserves rolls however this strategy is not nearly so polished in either of those lists as the skitarii one which can happily fight going first or second and only cares about the roll for objective scoring and psychic buffs purposes.
IMO if you cannot execute an extreme durability strategy turn 1 then you should plan to fight from reserves in the list building stages. This means either almost entirely basing your army in drop pods or turn 1 DS abilities/units or bringing cheap durable units to hold turn 1 and reserves manipulation to bring units on en mass on turn 2. For example below is the CWE list I use for max challenge games. Note it is very similar to Frankie's above but I have incorporated fighting from reserves considerably more in the list building phase by including cheap disposable units to take the turn 1 abuse rather than hoping not to be tabled or having to depend on an expensive wraithknight to take the abuse turn 1 like I have seen numerous players do. Imagine if when Frankie's D-Scythe wraithguard came down they could have exited a transport and thus spread out and caught the 3 units Reece bunched up like Frankie wanted to do but couldn't because he had to use his transport to help survive turn 1. BTW the extra scatbikes could be included in my list at the cost of the seer council having actual offensive kick. My seer council can shred units with Ld based attacks whereas without the armour of misery and Iryllith the seer council is a distraction unit.
Spoiler:
(Combined Arms Detachment)
HQ
Autarch (100pts) Banshee mask, Laser lance, Shuriken pistol, Skyrunner
Iryllith, Shade of Twilight (220pts)

Elites
Wraithguard (210pts) 5x Wraithguard D-scythe

Troops
Windriders (81pts) 3x Windrider with Scatter laser
Windriders (81pts) 3x Windrider with Scatter laser
Windriders (81pts) 3x Windrider with Scatter laser

Heavy Support
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (30pts) Shadow weaver
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (30pts) Shadow weaver

Lord of War
Wraithknight (310pts) Scatter laser, Two Heavy Wraithcannons

(Formation Detachment)
Seer Council (495pts)
Skyrunner Farseer w/ The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, Witchblade
Skyrunner Farseer w/ Witchblade
Skyrunner Warlock Conclave
5 Warlocks w/ Witchblade

(Allied Detachment)
HQ
Archon (110pts) The Armour of Misery, Webway portal

Troops
Kabalite Warriors (40pts) 5x Kabalite Warrior

Fast Attack
Raider (55pts) Disintegrator cannon

You can see that 160 pts (2 scatbike units of 3) bought me the ability to fight significantly more effectively out of reserves than a list without a couple of T7, 4 wounds artillery units and an autarch could ever hope to. The best part is that the shadow weaver artillery are still fairly effective dakka.
Most of the competitive lists I design now fight out of reserves effectively or are based around extreme durability. IMO a list that doesn't incorporate some element of these strategies will struggle against the new wave of top tier armies.

3) Out of range/LoS
This is part strategy, part board dependent, and partially list dependent. How this works is to simply deploy your units out of LoS and range from the majority of the opponent's firepower. This works best when combine with one of the other strategies and as it is usually impossible to completely deploy out of range or LoS or all of the opponent's firepower. However against the war convocation this can be extreme effective as their isn't enough points to allow them to fight from drop pods and there are several disadvantages to doing so. Even against the drop pod and CWE lists however deploying your units in the correct positions can significantly limit incoming firepower and even make the units come closer to you than they would otherwise want to do. These positions are usually the rear corners of your deployment zone and in the center of large buildings. This is usually dependent on the board layout and terrain however there are list building concerns which can enable this stratagem.
For the list portion you want units that are barrage and 48"+ ranges if possible. IME the Renegades and Heretics Ordnance Tyrant based list can if supplemented with good mobile scoring units make a very effective version of this list. IG also do this very well as both can bring a variety of long range barrage weapons. Alternatively 48" threat range units like scatbikes can do this well but will often time struggle to deploy in such a way as to fully utilize this strategy. Additional concerns during list building include taking servo skulls to block infiltrators and scouts which could otherwise close and limit your options turn 1, and taking a bunker and/or bastion to hide units behind (ala malanthrope in a nid army). Most extreme alpha strike armies suffer from needing LoS and 2 of the 3 above depend significantly on short range units to deal a significant amount of their damage.
A good example of where this strategy could have made a huge difference is in this recent batrep where a proper counter deployment by the white scars player could have left Reece with only 3-4 units in range to shoot (hard to tell in a vid batrep). Having the benefit of hindsight over the white scars player (who did really well considering he faced a complete unknown of an army) I would have prefered to take my licks and get into melee where I could hit and run out than come in piece meal and take 2 rounds of shooting on most of the units before they could contribute thanks to stealth+shrouding on the entire war convocation (that would be the major decider for me, something I might add the white scars player didn't know about when he chose to null deploy).

4) Ensure Turn 1
This is a false statement but you can certainly work towards it. Take units like assassins, coteaz, or mantis chapter tactics to get a reroll for seize the initiative. Don't take LoW in an ITC event so you get a +1 to seize. If you have both of these bonuses then you have a better than 50% chance to seize the initiative and most opponent's will just let you go first to avoid setting up badly and getting seized on. Note the two non drop pod lists both had LoWs so you would get a +1 to seize.


Finally as a side note against the drop pods you might want to look up common anti drop pod strategies which range from bubble wrap units (can be effective if done well against skitarii but is very hard to do) to interceptor units (coteaz doesn't work very well however Ahazra Redth has a warlord trait to give his unit intercept). MSU dispersion is also a very nasty counter to drop pod based armies and in general works well against extreme firepower lists assuming you don't play a KP mission

As for alpha strike based armies. Most of the above strategies are useful if an alpha strike army goes second however even if you get first a highly recommend taking a character like coteaz or mantis warriors to make the opponent reroll successful seize the initiative rolls. There is little worse than getting seized on as an alpha strike list deployed to alpha strike. Alternatively fighting out of reserves like the drop pod sitarii list is always very effective even if it tends to give somewhat less intense alpha strikes than the other two lists above.


Thanks to anyone who bothered to read until here . Please add your thoughts on the tactics for and against alpha strike armies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/09 00:09:53


 
   
Made in us
Rookie Pilot



Ohiowa

Really solid start to a discussion, thanks for putting this up.

The only thing I'd like to add is the TYPE of durability that you go for. There are several deathstars out there that need psychic powers etc to go off to ensure that they are as tough as they can be. If that unit doesn't go first, your centurion star is not invisible, which might be a problem.

Guard diving for cover is an interesting one; would an alpha striker bother going for a blob squad or would they hit isolated elements/high priority targets like wyverns/leman russes? How do you balance the need to survive the alpha (and beta...) strikes while still staying viable in a maelstrom mission?
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Orks here, wondering how best to implement any of these strategies.

Got no reserves shenanigans, and everything in our army is fragile as gak. Best I can think of is to run a repair stompa [laaame] or hide behind void shields.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Ether wrote:Really solid start to a discussion, thanks for putting this up.

Thanks. Complements are always welcome.

Ether wrote:The only thing I'd like to add is the TYPE of durability that you go for. There are several deathstars out there that need psychic powers etc to go off to ensure that they are as tough as they can be. If that unit doesn't go first, your centurion star is not invisible, which might be a problem.

That is a good note. I was refering to extreme durability before your first turn. Though I have found with a combination of deploying the star out of LoS and out of range combined with clever use of bubble wrap many of the deathstars can take some degree of advantage of these strategies. I have seen a clever use of coteaz + a building + 5 man TAC unit to force the drop pod skitarii to either come in within 12" or be forced to come in either out of LoS or 24" away from a cent star.

Null deployment can also work for deathstars but you take a huge risk of your 600 pts unit not coming in until turn 4. Elite armies just have too few units to roll statistically average.

Ether wrote:Guard diving for cover is an interesting one; would an alpha striker bother going for a blob squad or would they hit isolated elements/high priority targets like wyverns/leman russes? How do you balance the need to survive the alpha (and beta...) strikes while still staying viable in a maelstrom mission?

With the guard example I was mostly thinking of forgeworld artillery units which can GtG and accept orders. They are true extreme durability with T7 and 2+ cover against shooting. An example list which could match reasonably well against an extreme alpha strike list is;
Spoiler:
Astra Militarum (Combined Arms Detachment)
HQ
Commissar Yarrick (145pts)
Company Command Squad (120pts) Flak Armour, 4x Plasma Guns,

Troops
Infantry Platoon (602pts)
2x Infantry Squad
Platoon Command Squad 4x Flamers, Platoon Commander w/ Melta Bombs
Sabre Weapons Battery (FW) 3x Additional Sabre Crew, 3x Sabre w/ Twin-linked Lascannon
Sabre Weapons Battery (FW) 3x Additional Sabre Crew, 3x Sabre w/ Twin-linked Lascannon
Special Weapons Squad 3x Demolition Charges
Special Weapons Squad 3x Flamers

Veterans (120pts) Demolitions, Flak Armour, 3x Meltagun

Heavy Support
Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery (FW) (225pts) 3x Artillery Carriage Earthshaker Cannon
Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery (FW) (225pts) 3x Artillery Carriage Earthshaker Cannon

Blood Angels (Flesh Tearers Strike Force)
HQ
Librarian (75pts) Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Gallian's Staff

Troops
Scout Squad (70pts) 4x Scouts w/ Boltguns, Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-Grav, Melta Bombs

Fast Attack
Drop Pod (35pts) Storm Bolter
Drop Pod (35pts) Storm Bolter
Drop Pod (35pts) Storm Bolter
Drop Pod (35pts) Storm Bolter
Drop Pod (35pts) Storm Bolter

Fortification
Aegis Defense Line (90pts) Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon, Tanglewire


Regular IG needs a lot of luck on terrain. Essentially it seems to come down to whether you can get a large building or hill to block LoS to your artillery units. Platoons can do well behind an ADL as far as durability but the damage output of platoons is not high enough to handle most top tier army lists. Unfortunately pure IG without forgeworld has done overall poorly since 7ed was released. What I would recommend against extreme alpha strike lists for codex IG armies is to reserve anything you cannot give a 2+ cover save, is AV14 with a 4+ save, or can stay out of LoS.

With forgeworld army lists the Death Korps of Krieg Siege Brigade can do reasonably well with the Death Riders Regiment and the Renegades of Vraks and Renegades and Heretics army lists can play with top tier lists.

Dakkamite wrote:Orks here, wondering how best to implement any of these strategies.

Got no reserves shenanigans, and everything in our army is fragile as gak. Best I can think of is to run a repair stompa [laaame] or hide behind void shields.

My knowledge of Orks is somewhat limited but the two top tier army lists I have seen are the Zhadsnark with warbikers and tankbustas and green tide abusing void shield generators. Both of these have won or placed well in sizable GTs and are very tough lists to handle. The void shield list is annoying to actually start damaging and the shield regenerate on a 5+ every turn so keeping 9 of them down and killing all those orks is an issue even for an extreme alpha strike army. The bikers army I saw had a rerollable 2+ cover save to take damage on and is fast enough and small enough numbers of models that they can partially start out of LoS and play partially out of reserves.

My knowledge of Orks is entirely from playing against them and seeing others play them. They are definitely the army I know the least about.

They can however take partial advantage of some of the above tactics. Mek gunz units are cheap and can be put behind an ADL to allow the orks 2+ cover save T7 units to hold out turn 1. Deffkoptas have pretty good shooting, are jetbikes, and have scout for outflank thus letting them get in range from reserves. Trukks are cheap and can claim cover saves from barricades while rerolling dangerous terrain from moving over the barricade. If you want a speed freak list I would recommend taking a void shield generator or ADL and getting barricades unless you can count on the board to provide enough cover.

IMO the best ork lists I have seen either take warbikers, a green tide w/ void shields, or limit the boyz and maximize the toyz. I don't think the old adage of boyz before toyz holds true for the ork codex these days but take my advice with a grain of salt as it is very much an outsider looking in.
   
Made in us
Hierarch





I know that this is something of a hard necro, but not only has this thread been recently linked but I think the new armies warrant a reopening of the discussion, especially in the case of the new Raven Guard. I've been working on writing an effective alpha strike\null deployment Raven Guard list, and they (along with the white scars tbh) seem like they could do some of the strategies presented in the op really well. I'd like to see other people's thoughts on this, especially because I can't find anything on peoples opinions now that the new book has been out a little while (besides from the new tau ofcourse.)

 Tamereth wrote:

We'll take your Magnus leak and raise you plastic sisters, take that internet.
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I've played against the RG three times now. The big thing is just how little of the RG army actually gets set up. My opponent wants to go first and sets up just a few units. Then I have to set up, but not really knowing where all his infiltrators will be placed. Also I need to consider where his infiltrating units will utilize Scout for their final position (Scout bikes with Locator Beacons which is why this is important).

For the RG, if I seize the initiative (which has happened once), his Scout bikers will definitely Jink and give them a 2+ cover save (Shrouded first turn), and it's painful to unload too many points of shooting into a unit that is worth 64 points. I don't have much at all that can Ignore Cover, so I am not damaging much of his army on turn 1.

What I've found in every game is if I survive his alpha strike, the bite of his army really diminishes. The games I've won have been where I repel Vanguard Veterans quickly. My opponent is revisiting his weapon loadouts on these kinds of units trying to find the sweet spot between points spent and killiness.

Against WS, I'm very confident I will end up seeing the Hunter's Eye in every army in either a WS Bike Command Squad with Grav or a Cent Star coming out of a DP. You better believe I will reserve and deep strike my Wraithknight and try to outmaneuver that kind of unit. In cases where there are large point investments into a unit(s) with Grav, my Guardians with a 5+ armor save are most likely what will be sacrificed in my army. A lot depends on terrain and deployment type, but it's a great way to problem solve.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/09 11:49:50


No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

The White Scars rules has done a few small tweaks to how a white scars army operates. First it made the bike star a real contender and the centurion star a more reliable. Both of which mean that WS battle company and CAD armies became even better.

The new formations are pretty cool and many of them are actually deceptively powerful however they don't really change how the army is played. WS became a little better in assault and a little faster. They also gained access to a pretty cool trick of harassing fire on important units to possibly pull them out of relevance but this doesn't change the basic strategies.

The Ravenguard completely changed how they play and introduce some stuff that nobody else can do. They are the only army I can think of that can make lists to use all the strategies I talked about 100% with that single list.
-Ensure Alpha Strike: The reroll deployment, mission, and first is huge. If you also mix in a reroll seize the initiative with this you start getting ~80% chance to go first. This lets them use the different assassins (which can give the reroll seize btw) to maximum effect without having to toy with drop pods, etc. This lets the RG get very consistent alpha strike opportunities and to have a very high chance to get LoS blocking terrain to help with fighting from reserves.
-Fight From Reserves: RG can decide to bring in their detachment units from turn 1 on a 4+ (which btw can be rerolled if you take an ADL w/ comms or the right ally). They also have a huge variety of different units and abilities to help with scouts that can guide units in using outflank, beacons on units that are durable turn 1, assault from DS formation, and even the ability to apply ignore cover to a wide variety of weapons and units to help negate turn 1 durability strategies.
-Turn 1 Durability: They also get shrouded on turn 1. This helps to make their chapter tactics special rule models a lot harder to kill. This combined with the ability to bring reserves in turn 1 makes RG extremely hard to table turn 1 when they decide to null deploy.

Some of the things to keep in mind when fighting against RG or as RG.
1) The units that the RG formations have to take are many of the units that when looked at alone are overcosted and usually poor choices. RG works on synergies to make these units great. Take the shadow strike kill team. It consists of vanguard vets and scout squads. The scouts are pretty good but the vanguard vets are tend to be extremely overpriced. If you can cause the vanguard vets to DS and not get a charge, intercept them, or let them eat a cheap <50 pts unit then you can fairly easily shoot them off the board. Most of the RG formations are like that, if you can take out one part of the strategy it becomes vastly less reliable.
2) The vehicles don't have chapter tactics and thus no turn 1 shrouded. Common mistake.
3) The scout support ignore cover rule is tied to the scout sarges. Thus RG players need to keep the scout sarges alive if they want ignore cover on the dev team. If you play against it then this is where barrage sniping precision shots, and the vindicare assassin show their stuff. BTW locator beacons are bought by the scout sarge as well so this can be a double gain.

   
 
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