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So I bought something off ebay, and I feel that it is a recast. it doesn't feel the same as normal FW and was also much cheaper... Is it illegal to purchase these items? or is it just illegal for the person selling? I never really new much about them, but I feel like ive bought several without realizing it.

It is not illegal to buy them, same as counterfeit purses and the like. See this thread going on in the 40k General Discussions for more info!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652742.page

The legality of buying counterfeits depends on the jurisdiction. For example in France and Italy you can be fined for buying counterfeit goods. IDK about the USA.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So I bought something off ebay, and I feel that it is a recast. it doesn't feel the same as normal FW and was also much cheaper...

As a general rule, if it's Forgeworld, new, and cheaper than Forgeworld... it's pretty much always going to be a counterfeit, particularly if it's coming from China and/or the seller is selling multiples of the same item.

Is it illegal to purchase these items?

In general no, although as Killkrazy mentioned the actual rules vary from country to country.


I'm not sure if it still happens, and if Forgeworld did the same thing, but GW actually (or so I heard - never tried it myself) used to replace counterfeit models if you sent them on to them with details of where you had bought them.

Generally I am death on purchasing recasts, hacked software, unlicensed music, etc. Anything where the people making/selling the product don't get their money for their work.

But when forgeworld chooses to stop producing and selling something (spore towers, hormagaunt nest, etc), have at it 3rd party producers.

I suppose that makes me a hypocrite because I think a third party remaking old Magic cards (black lotus, moxes, etc) would be wrong.

 insaniak wrote:
I'm not sure if it still happens, and if Forgeworld did the same thing, but GW actually (or so I heard - never tried it myself) used to replace counterfeit models if you sent them on to them with details of where you had bought them.

I had this issue a while back, and I did contact GW. What they do is ask for the eBay transaction number and seller ID, and that the model to be sent to them. If it's found to be a recast then they'll send paypal a notice on your behalf, to aid you in getting a refund (if it's not a recast they'll send it back). If you're outside of the paypal refund window then they did say that they can replace it with the genuine thing themselves.

Buying known bootlegs is a personal moral decision each person needs to make.

Personally, I tend to only purchase OOP items that are just not easy to find legitimate copies of.

I have however bought recasts of certain newer kits out of spite due to obvious price gouging from the original manufacturer.

Keep in mind, you cannot post links to stores that sell recasts here, nor can you post advice on how to find them or how to make recasts yourself.

And as a reminder(because it ALWAYS comes up in these types of threads) recasting solely for personal use is still illegal. It doesn't matter if you sell the items or not.

In the USA, KNOWINGLY buying counterfeit goods is against the law (but very difficult to prosecute)

Which is ideally better than prosecuting a victim of purchasing a counterfeit (if your intention was to buy the actual brand-name).

But that does come with difficulties, as it opens upon the ability for laundering counterfeits more easily to disguise their provenance.

People who pirate are a huge problem. They are DESTROYING artist's ability to make a living from their creation.

And we are in a period where it is especially easy to pirate creative content of others (steal people's creations).

There are cases where copying other's work is "technically" legal, but it is so fraught with problems as to be not really worthwhile (as well as spitting in the face of all artists who work to support themselves from their art). But these "technicalities" vary by nation.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aerethan wrote:


And as a reminder(because it ALWAYS comes up in these types of threads) recasting solely for personal use is still illegal. It doesn't matter if you sell the items or not.

Depends upon the jurisdiction. This is one of those "technicalities" that I ran into when someone stole my work in that exact fashion.

They copied my work "for personal use."

My boss, and his company took them to court.

We lost. We could not show that his possession of these items represented a threat to the market value of the original product.

The judge said that they "effectively do not exist in the marketlace, and we could not disprove his claim that they were for his sole use and display" (considering they were inside a house, inside a gated community, and that we could produce no evidence he actually had them due to the nature of our contract with him, which prevents us from using our own photographs of his house for any purpose other than the creations of the originals he copied).

To say that I was irate is an understatement, and my boss screwed him on the remainder of the work we did for him by doing really base-level work.

The USA (and Canada to a lesser degree) is WAY TOO LENIENT on this sort of thing. And artists need to push for tighter controls of what constitutes item 4 of "fair use" (the effect upon the market value of the original product).

MB

You're not wrong that knowingly purchasing counterfeit goods would be tough to prosecute, as one of the key issues with counterfeit goods is they're offered as the real thing at a price on or around RRP. Sellers of counterfeit goods frequently set out to deceive the consumer.

Recasts are nearly always offered at such a discount, sometimes in a different material, that it could be argued one could never not knowingly purchase them as knock-offs/reproductions/your preferred term. Especially when in many cases the advertisements selling them explicitly state they aren't originals.

Equally, far from destroying artists ability to make a living, isn't now a time where more people than ever before are in a position to find their audience, and hasn't the research shown that if product is offered at a price people feel is reasonable, piracy is only a minor issue, and that it is only prevalent where people feel sufficiently ripped off that they seek out alternatives? (The odd "freedom fighter" notwithstanding, man.)

Piracy isn't the problem, piracy is the symptom of GW trying to sell their product for an excessively high price without engendering the customer loyalty through quality and PR to justify it, and employing restricted availability in its stead, something which people constantly cite as what they feel is a 'reasonable' reason to pirate, even if they wouldn't normally do so if something is readily available.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Equally, far from destroying artists ability to make a living, isn't now a time where more people than ever before are in a position to find their audience, and hasn't the research shown that if product is offered at a price people feel is reasonable, piracy is only a minor issue, and that it is only prevalent where people feel sufficiently ripped off that they seek out alternatives? (The odd "freedom fighter" notwithstanding, man.)

Piracy isn't the problem, piracy is the symptom of GW trying to sell their product for an excessively high price without engendering the customer loyalty through quality and PR to justify it, and employing restricted availability in its stead, something which people constantly cite as what they feel is a 'reasonable' reason to pirate, even if they wouldn't normally do so if something is readily available.

Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that "people" will happily pay for legitimate product if prices are "reasonable" -- so long as there exists a substantially cheaper and indistinguishable alternative (I put quotes around people because obviously, I don't mean all people -- I mean people who are inclined to buy recasts or pirate product; and I put quotes around reasonable, because this is pretty subjective term). Many people pirate Netflix shows like House of Cards, Orange is the New Black, and Sense8, and what's cheaper than Netflix? You could subscribe to it for 1 month and binge watch everything for the price of capo and a muffin at Starbucks. A lot of people steal music when it's less than a buck a song, or a subscription service is very cheap. I know people who own multimillion dollar homes and pirate ebooks, when the price of their designer Italian leather sofa in the living room could fill a home library three times over (or buy every GW model you could ever want).

If GW's product were 50% less, and there were pirates who sold it for 50% less than that, the same people who buy counterfeit GW product now would be buying it in that scenario. In order to get rid of piracy, GW would have to sell stuff so cheap that it becomes unprofitable to pirate and distribute counterfeit product. Which, I think, will not happen so long as GW pays UK labour instead of Chinese labour for their miniatures.

I think that the biggest benefit from reduced GW prices would lower costs of entry for new players, and an easier route to more armies, rather than a reduction in people buying fake Imperial Knights and such.

Kinda missed my point.

There will always be a section who pirate, regardless.

However, I believe the research has shown that in a market where price is considered reasonable by most and access isn't too restrictive, most people choose legitimate means over illegitimate means of ownership.

I could easily torrent whatever I like, I've got the links in my bookmarks, yet I still use Netflix and have a home TV subscription service because I find the increased functionality both services offer, plus the convenience, to be worth the money.

ie. they offer good value.

I have no reservations about ordering recasts however, as buying the original doesn't offer me sufficient benefit for the increased cost.

Were the prices lower, I may feel differently, and of course, lower prices put more pressure on the recasters, less margin may predispose some of them to decide it isn't worth the effort and stop.

Exactly, Azreal13, Steam and GOG (particularly GOG with their DRM-free policy) show that a good product at a reasonable price, even in a heavily pirated market, is still profitable.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Kinda missed my point.

There will always be a section who pirate, regardless.

However, I believe the research has shown that in a market where price is considered reasonable by most and access isn't too restrictive, most people choose legitimate means over illegitimate means of ownership.

I could easily torrent whatever I like, I've got the links in my bookmarks, yet I still use Netflix and have a home TV subscription service because I find the increased functionality both services offer, plus the convenience, to be worth the money.

ie. they offer good value.

I have no reservations about ordering recasts however, as buying the original doesn't offer me sufficient benefit for the increased cost.

Were the prices lower, I may feel differently, and of course, lower prices put more pressure on the recasters, less margin may predispose some of them to decide it isn't worth the effort and stop.

I want to say that I know for a fact their has been research that showed this is true.

Actually, a problem that happens is when these things happen it can make problems worse because it forces people who normally would not consider such things aware of the grey market sellers and pirates.

In general I don't think laws should target consumers, but sellers and distributers. They are the ones makes money off other peoples work, not the consumer.

 Talys wrote:
If GW's product were 50% less, and there were pirates who sold it for 50% less than that, the same people who buy counterfeit GW product now would be buying it in that scenario. In order to get rid of piracy, GW would have to sell stuff so cheap that it becomes unprofitable to pirate and distribute counterfeit product. Which, I think, will not happen so long as GW pays UK labour instead of Chinese labour for their miniatures.

Pirates, recasters, etc. operate on profit margins as everyone else.

They're currently making money because GW's pricing allows them to offer the same price at half or even one third of the official price, send it from China to anywhere in the world, and still have a good profit.

A 50% drop among GW's product line would likely make those margins dissappear and drive most recasters out of business.

There are some GW kits you will never, ever see recasted: plastic fantasy regiments of 10 models for 21€ (like dark elf corsairs). That's because it wouldn't be profitable to recast them and sell them cheaper.

As for your last sentence, some years ago ForgeWorld produced several kits in China. They didn't lower prices as a result. GW still produces all their printed product (codeci, WD, etc.). in China, and the pricing is as insane as the UK-made products. So sorry, but your argument is invalid

*Most* GW miniatures are produced in the UK, not China. If you want to look more recently, the Plasma Obliterator was made in China, I think.

I have seen recasts of Space Hulk models, so even the craziest things get recast. The cost of labour in China is extremely low, and the materials are extremely cheap, so strange things happen. But these aren't good sellers, for sure

Anyhow, call me crazy, but I honestly don't think that GW cutting all their prices by 50% would fix anything at all for GW. I can't imagine any situation where their revenues would more than double, which would be what they'd need to break even. If they cut their prices by a more reasonable 30%, would their revenues increase by about half? I really doubt it. And I think in EITHER scenario, kits like the Imperial Knight -- even with the price cut in half -- would still get recast.

@Az - I do understand your point of view. And I applaud you for subscribing to Netflix despite the availability of alternatives However, not everyone is like you, and plenty of people pirate House of Cards, despite it being an excellent value -- which was my point.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to pirate a TV show from a practical perspective if the channel is cheap or free, or if it's on something like Netflix, where the price is super cheap (as you say, great value). And yet it happens! People get rid of basic cable tv, because, hey, you can download all those tv shows on bittorrent anyhow, right?

 Talys wrote:
*Most* GW miniatures are produced in the UK, not China. If you want to look more recently, the Plasma Obliterator was made in China, I think.

They are indeed. Now. As I said earlier, some years ago ForgeWorld was producing some kits in China, but still charging what I would describe as "UK prices" ( ). Eventually they stopped doing that, and moved all production back to the UK - the inmediate consequence was a drop in quality for some kits, specifically the ones that were previously being produced in China.

As for main GW, it's been rumored they outsource production of some models to China from time to time, like the Stompa or that Plasma Obliterator. I can't support nor dismiss such claims though, I simply don't know.

They do print all their paper material in China though.

I have seen recasts of Space Hulk models, so even the craziest things get recast. The cost of labour in China is extremely low, and the materials are extremely cheap, so strange things happen. But these aren't good sellers, for sure

Anyhow, call me crazy, but I honestly don't think that GW cutting all their prices by 50% would fix anything at all for GW. I can't imagine any situation where their revenues would more than double, which would be what they'd need to break even. If they cut their prices by a more reasonable 30%, would their revenues increase by about half? I really doubt it. And I think in EITHER scenario, kits like the Imperial Knight -- even with the price cut in half -- would still get recast.

That's because there's probably many people interested in some specific Space Hulk models, but unwilling to pay for the whole game to get them. As I said earlier, some checking throughout the most well known recasters' catalogue will tell you no recasts are being made of GW's most reasonably-priced kits, like those 10-man plastic infantry kits released at the beginning of Fantasy 7th Edition.

I'm sure GW cutting prices by 50% would drive recasters out of business, or at least make them absolutely irrelevant, or perhaps just force them to focus on highly demanded out-of-production models (90s metals, mostly). Who knows. I do agree such a measure would be unlikely to fix anything for GW, mostly because they've run themselves into a position where they're beyond fixing.

As a "legal caster", that is to say someone who sculpts, makes moulds and casts his own pieces for games, I don't think the production of a Knight Titan model would realistically cost more than £10 in terms of time and resin (at Chinese labour rates). The initial production of the moulds would cost more, but this would be spread across a large number of models cast.

Let's say it cost £200 to make the moulds, £10 per complete kit cast, and £5 postage (the rates from China are incredibly low for some reason.) If you can get 100 orders, the basic cost per unit is only £17. You could sell the kits for £34 each, making 100% profit, while still undercutting GW's price by £55 or more depending on the exact variant of Titan considered.

If GW cut their price in half they would need to sell at least double the number of units just to stay at level pegging with current sales, and your recast Titan would still sell for at least 25% cheaper than the GW price.

Excuse my unhelpful response, but I keep thinking the thread title is "Racist Legal?"

I was wondering what the hell people have found to complain about the GW this time - my bad

 Azreal13 wrote:
You're not wrong that knowingly purchasing counterfeit goods would be tough to prosecute, as one of the key issues with counterfeit goods is they're offered as the real thing at a price on or around RRP. Sellers of counterfeit goods frequently set out to deceive the consumer.

Recasts are nearly always offered at such a discount, sometimes in a different material, that it could be argued one could never not knowingly purchase them as knock-offs/reproductions/your preferred term. Especially when in many cases the advertisements selling them explicitly state they aren't originals.

Equally, far from destroying artists ability to make a living, isn't now a time where more people than ever before are in a position to find their audience, and hasn't the research shown that if product is offered at a price people feel is reasonable, piracy is only a minor issue, and that it is only prevalent where people feel sufficiently ripped off that they seek out alternatives? (The odd "freedom fighter" notwithstanding, man.)

Piracy isn't the problem, piracy is the symptom of GW trying to sell their product for an excessively high price without engendering the customer loyalty through quality and PR to justify it, and employing restricted availability in its stead, something which people constantly cite as what they feel is a 'reasonable' reason to pirate, even if they wouldn't normally do so if something is readily available.

You are mostly correct about now being a time when an artist can most easily find their audience, and that people usually will pay a fair price if given the opportunity to pirating.

But the ability to pirate is also undergoing a period where it is easier and easier for pirates to get away with counterfeiting.

And not every recaster is going to advertise that they are doing such.

I wound up with a LOT of old Citadel Models (the 15mm Sci-Fi stuff from the early-80s) because of a recaster passing them off as being "the real thing," and that they just had a lot of them (I had hundreds, so he might well have).

But. Year later, when I noticed another group of almost identical figures being sold, and discovered he had gone through hundreds of such auctions, I realized that they were recasts (considering the figures had been OOP for two decades or more).

But it IS getting easier to recognize the worst offenders. The problems arise when you have trained professionals counterfeiting. Then it becomes much easier (for instance, I know how to build a mold that does not cause shrinkage - it is a pain-in-the-ass, but if you were serious about counterfeiting, it would be something to do).

MB

Then he was guilty of counterfeiting.

It's important to get the terminology right, because some people get quite emotional and consequently start throwing all sorts of emotive and inaccurate terms (like theft) around to try and reinforce their point of view.

Counterfeiting typically involves intent to deceive (as in your case) Piracy involves replication of an original product without permission. Neither is theft, as in neither case is anyone left without property they originally possessed.

The Chinese typically pirate, but in my experience don't make any effort to pretend that what they're selling is anything other than a copy, you fell victim to a counterfeiter and, while a shame, seems relatively unusually.

I shudder to think how many individuals are buying recasts, doing anything necessary to cover up any evidence and listing it on eBay as original though.

I don't see any difference. The original IP holder isn't being paid for his work.

OTOH, Like many other IP that can be copied, passing a law or citing morality isn't the solution. If it can be copied, it will be copied. So companies need to understand their markets as well as they can. If buying a counterfeit model still results in your buying GW products, that's still a win for GW. It's certainly better than your not buying *any* GW models because of their price and switching permanently to Mantic.

You don't see the difference between passing a fake off as the real thing and someone selling a fake for a fraction of the cost and telling you it's a fake?

 Korinov wrote:

I have seen recasts of Space Hulk models, so even the craziest things get recast. The cost of labour in China is extremely low, and the materials are extremely cheap, so strange things happen. But these aren't good sellers, for sure

Anyhow, call me crazy, but I honestly don't think that GW cutting all their prices by 50% would fix anything at all for GW. I can't imagine any situation where their revenues would more than double, which would be what they'd need to break even. If they cut their prices by a more reasonable 30%, would their revenues increase by about half? I really doubt it. And I think in EITHER scenario, kits like the Imperial Knight -- even with the price cut in half -- would still get recast.

That's because there's probably many people interested in some specific Space Hulk models, but unwilling to pay for the whole game to get them. As I said earlier, some checking throughout the most well known recasters' catalogue will tell you no recasts are being made of GW's most reasonably-priced kits, like those 10-man plastic infantry kits released at the beginning of Fantasy 7th Edition.

It's also worth noting that the Space Hulk models used to be extremely limited, as the game sold out almost immediately after release and people still wanted the unique sculpts for their 40k armies, so it would have been a good source of profit for recasters. Especially since a NIB copy of the game used to be $300 on eBay.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
So I bought something off ebay, and I feel that it is a recast. it doesn't feel the same as normal FW and was also much cheaper... Is it illegal to purchase these items? or is it just illegal for the person selling? I never really new much about them, but I feel like ive bought several without realizing it.

I really don't see the point of your thread, so you got a recast and probably half the price and if from China or Russia got free delivery and a better quality product, get over it.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

I really don't see the point of your thread, so you got a recast and probably half the price and if from China or Russia got free delivery and a better quality product, get over it.

Going by his post, the point was that he was concerned about potential legal ramifications from buying knock-offs, so thought he would ask about them.

You know the British legalized piracy against the Spanish back in the day, now it's the Russians and the Chinese pirating off GW. Get over it!

If you have moral qualms send them to me, It will be crippling but i am willing to take the burden.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You don't see the difference between passing a fake off as the real thing and someone selling a fake for a fraction of the cost and telling you it's a fake?

Not me. Even the known fake plays off the IP owner who's not getting paid.

Make your own d*mn sculpt. Don't buy into a game system that you know has overpriced miniatures or ones you will want but will be OOP. Plenty of other games out there.

To throw in my two cents here:
The whole piracy debate has two aspects. The legal one is pretty trivial. Look up the laws of your country and maybe some cases to learn what is allowed and what happens if you do something that is not.

The moral aspect is a bit trickier and varies from time to time. On one hand you should support creators that do something you enjoy, be it music, movies, games or models.
On the other hand, how that support works is a problem in and on itself. I've read that the artist receives about 7 Cents out of that 20$ CD you buy. Most of those other 19,93$ will be gobbled up by Sony Music Entertainment or whatever label owns the band. I have no qualms with buying a disc that some artist made and sells himself where most of the profits actually end up benefitting the artist, but having less than 1% of the money I spend actually go to the artist? Yup, screw that.

So what about GW then? Theoretically, 100% of what you pay them benefits GW, so should be no problem supporting them then? Not quite. As the various financial discussions have shown, actual design and prototyping of a model takes up a completely insignificant part of GW costs, so this can be safely ignored. What we are left with a production costs (that a large company like GW can cut down by buing in bulk, unlike a small recaster), distribution (that applies to GW and the recasters but somehow only the later offer free shipping) and buisness-related expenses that should apply to both to some degree. Going by any sort of reasonable thinking, GW should be able to be cheaper than any recaster, yet their prices often exceed 300% of what recasters charge (and I've seen possible 700% savings for some FW kits). Seeing that makes me think someone tries to screw me, and when it comes to "screw or be screwed" I rather not be the passive part, morals be damned.

 Talys wrote:

Sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that "people" will happily pay for legitimate product if prices are "reasonable" -- so long as there exists a substantially cheaper and indistinguishable alternative (I put quotes around people because obviously, I don't mean all people -- I mean people who are inclined to buy recasts or pirate product; and I put quotes around reasonable, because this is pretty subjective term). Many people pirate Netflix shows like House of Cards, Orange is the New Black, and Sense8, and what's cheaper than Netflix? You could subscribe to it for 1 month and binge watch everything for the price of capo and a muffin at Starbucks. A lot of people steal music when it's less than a buck a song, or a subscription service is very cheap. I know people who own multimillion dollar homes and pirate ebooks, when the price of their designer Italian leather sofa in the living room could fill a home library three times over (or buy every GW model you could ever want).

I'll counter your anecdotal evidence with my own. Here in Australia, legit Netflix has only been a thing for a very short time (2-3 months or so). I know quite a few people who no longer bother to torrent things and now have Netflix subscriptions. There will always be people who choose to pirate, just as there are those who never will, but there's a big blob of people in the middle who really are riding that "reasonable" train. To wit - I again know people who buy legit product from many manufacturers yet buy recast GW. So there you go...