Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can a independent Char join a jump pack squad and benifit from "Shock Deployment", and" First Fire then the blade?"

Answer : YES

I'll help squash this like a bug, because Im tired of reading players quote "made up" rules based on what they belive should happen and not what clearly written in the rules.
The main focus of all the naysayer players is this rule
-Pg.166, : IC Special rules : When an Independent Char. joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those in the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule) , the units special rules are not conffered upon the Independent Char, and the IC's rules are not conffered upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the IC is with them.

Main focus I see is the first line. I keep reading from naysayers that, oh, He's not part of the formation, or, hes not part of the purchased unit, so he doesnt benifit from its special rules because its doesnt specifically state it includes Independent Characters. WRONG!!!!! By this rational, An Apothecary grants all modesl in the unit "Feel no Pain"....whelp....the IC wasnt part of the quote "purchased" unit and the special rule for the Narthecium doesnt specifically state it includes all models in the unit and Independent Characters....so .....guess your Warlord doesn't get FnP?....WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Stop with this BS quote "selective" logic. Same could apply when a Psyker gives a unit a special rule......most dont say.....give X unit AND its included Independent Chars. X special rule....its just assumed the IC is a part of the unit and gets it.

Let me break it down for you,

1: it doesnt matter when a unit aquires special rules, where they are included as part of army selection or aquired later in the game via a psyker. Special Rules that apply to the unit "as a whole" apply to all the models in the unit.
example being FnP from a Apoth, or psykers granting rules to a unit casting a spell. they grant them to the entire unit.....which includes IC's in the unit. They are a part of the unit.

Rules not granted but benefited from example : Fearless - an IC with out Fearless joins a Fearless unit.....the unit charges and loses combat, Fearless is not applied to the IC......but since the IC cant leave the unit during any other phase other than the movement phase.....The IC automatically benifits from the Fearless special rule. you dont roll separate Ld. test for the IC.
- pg. 166 Joining and leaving a unit. : An Independent Char. can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase. .......

2. Can he benefit from Shock Deployment?
- pg. 135 Combined reserve units : During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the IC's in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.......in either case, when making a Reserve roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and or its IC's.

-. Battle Bros. pg. 127
Units from the same army that are Battle Bros. treat each other as friendly units for all rules purposes.
- Can use modifiers and re-rolls that apply to Reserve Rolls that are granted by a Battle Bros. model.
-ie. The IC can join a Skyhammer unit and benefit from "Shock Deployment"

Guess what?.....muh IC's dropping in turn 1 Brah!

3. Can he assault? - this one is the most important. First sentence.
- Pg. 100 - Characters and Assaults : - Remeber ,a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being a part of a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too, as it is part of the unit.
PERIOD!!!! there is no rule.....anywhere.....written,.....that states that if an Independent Char. joins a unit....that they lose there special rules. IE. that the Skyhammer Asssault squads cant assault. QQ sorry, they can.
- pg. 166 Joining and leaving a unit. : An Independent Char. can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. He cannot join or leave during any other phase. .......

- First the Fire, then the Blade sepcial rule : On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

These rules apply to the units as a whole and all models included there in......it does not specifically state...."only the models"...its does not state "only the jump pack marines", it says Quote : "the Assault Squads" which is inclusive off all models in the unit....Including Independant Chars. why?
- pg 100. Characters and Assaults - Remeber ,a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being a part of a unit.

pg. 166 left side...bottom paragraph : While an Independent Char. is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

All....period.....hands down.....Hes is now offically a part of the Assault squad.


There you have it folks, When a IC joins a unit, he effectively becomes a part of that unit and aside for scoring purposes ceases to be an independent unit. Puschased or not as a part of the unit in your Army list.....makes no difference.

Oh and your IC does not need to be Jump Pack equipped to Deep Strike with the Assault Marines. He can also join and Deep Strike with Terminator armor, he just cant move as far but can still join the unit.

So guess what.......Marneus Calgar is dropping in Turn 1 with my Assault Marines......and granting a good Deep Strike scatter......hes punching you in the FACE! XD

So unless you can show me an actual rule....not some made up malarky or some BS. tourney organizers "House Rule" that states an IC cannot join a unit in this formation, or that an IC joining a unit causes them to lose there Special Rules....

THE ANSWER IS : YES ! Yes they can benefit.

Yeah, this is pro stance.

Con stance is that the IC is not a part of the formation and therefore doesn't benefit from the rules and vice cersa(as found in IC rules).

But there was a 21 page thread on this and this particular can of worms doesn't need to be opened again.

Yes, especially as each time the con stance was debunked, it was ignored, and the cycle continued.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Yeah, this is pro stance.

Con stance is that the IC is not a part of the formation and therefore doesn't benefit from the rules and vice cersa(as found in IC rules).

But there was a 21 page thread on this and this particular can of worms doesn't need to be opened again.

Except, nowhere in the rules book under Formations - Pg. 121 is that written. or anywhere else in the book. Where are you getting these quote "Facts"?

Again : Main focus I see is the first line. I keep reading from naysayers that, oh, He's not part of the formation, or, hes not part of the purchased unit, so he doesnt benifit from its special rules because its doesnt specifically state it includes Independent Characters. WRONG!!!!! By this rational, An Apothecary grants all modesl in the unit "Feel no Pain"....whelp....the IC wasnt part of the quote "purchased" unit and the special rule for the Narthecium doesnt specifically state it includes all models in the unit and Independent Characters....so .....guess your Warlord doesn't get FnP?....WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Stop with this BS quote "selective" logic. Same could apply when a Psyker gives a unit a special rule......most dont say.....give X unit AND its included Independent Chars. X special rule....its just assumed the IC is a part of the unit and gets it.

Formations have nothing to do with how IC's benefit from special rules or not. Only to do with Army Selection. Fomations are still governed under the rules for Battle Bros. even if they are not selected out of the same codex. Formations are a part of my Army.......separate detachments or not.....still govererned under the same rules. They dont have separate rules for IC's. Read Formations Pg. 121
Read Battle Bros. Page 127.

Again: it doesnt matter when a unit aquires special rules, where they are included as part of army selection or aquired later in the game via a psyker. Special Rules that apply to the unit "as a whole" apply to all the models in the unit.


That Con argument is INVALID! Those rules are made up.

.

So the devastator squads are specifically mentioned to have relentless, and you're saying that extends to a character attached as well? Is that different from me looking at my chaos codex which says plague marines have feel no pain and then saying if I attach a character he gets it as well?

 lessthanjeff wrote:
So the devastator squads are specifically mentioned to have relentless, and you're saying that extends to a character attached as well? Is that different from me looking at my chaos codex which says plague marines have feel no pain and then saying if I attach a character he gets it as well?

The unit gains relentless. Guess who is a member of the unit for all rules purposes?

From the quote I saw of the rule, it said the devastator squad is relentless and not just "the unit". That's why I'm asking what's different form the plague marines having feel no pain and it being conferred to a character.

The devastatior squad IS the unit. Compare to plague marines where the *model* has feel no pain.

Unit != model.

Exactly...... The rules apply to the unit as a whole....not specific models in the unit, not all models except Independent Chars.

All ......

The main contention of this argument is whether or not the FtFttB (First the Fire then the Blade) special rule is conferred to an IC that has joined the Assault Marine unit. The key sentence for special rules in this situation is "Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit." The FtFttB special rule doesn't state the models in the unit can assault when they arrive from deep strike, it instead states the Assault Squad. Assault Squad is a proper noun referring to a Datasheet or Army List Entry. Granted they make up a unit, but the rule only applies to the Assault Squad Datasheet not the whole unit.

I'll use another formation as an example where the special rule specifies that it applies to the whole unit. One of the special rules for "Datasheet - Strike Force Ultra" is "Fury of the Storm", it states:
"When a Terminator Squad from this Formation arrives from Deep Strike Reserve or disembarks from a Transport vehicle from this Formation for the first time, all ranged weapons carried by models in the unit add 1 to the number of shots they can make until the end of the turn."

There is clear precedence from other formation special rules showing that when a special rule is intended for all models in the unit it specifically states that fact. Thus, with the IC section of the BrB stating that it is left to the special rule to specify if the IC gains a rule's affects or not, we can't assume that the FtFttB special rule is conferred to all models in the Assault Marine units since the special rule omits wording that would make this clear.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
From the quote I saw of the rule, it said the devastator squad is relentless and not just "the unit". That's why I'm asking what's different form the plague marines having feel no pain and it being conferred to a character.

Read the rules for FnP. States "a model." The plague Marines individually get FnP when they are selected in unit selection. Under the rules of FnP it is not connferred to all models in the unit.


The Rules for the Skayhammer State, The Devastator Squads and the Assaullt Squads, which are reffering to the unit as a whole...not individual models.

Ergo , when the IC joins the unit.....he is considered part of the unit as a whole.

There is a difference between rules like fearless which state "units containing one or models with the fearless special rule..." and eternal warrior "if a model with this special rule...". Some are written to cover other models in the unit, some are not.

The quote from above for this formation says " On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn. "

If it said the unit of devastators or all models in the unit, then I'd be inclined to agree with you about it conferring to independent characters. This rule specifically names the devastator squad and the assault squad only though and does not say that all models in the unit gain the rule. The devastators are the unit just as much as the plague marines are the unit and I wouldn't confer the feel no pain the same why I wouldn't confer the relentless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NintendoTed wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
From the quote I saw of the rule, it said the devastator squad is relentless and not just "the unit". That's why I'm asking what's different form the plague marines having feel no pain and it being conferred to a character.

Read the rules for FnP. States "a model." The plague Marines individually get FnP when they are selected in unit selection. Under the rules of FnP it is not connferred to all models in the unit.


The Rules for the Skayhammer State, The Devastator Squads and the Assaullt Squads, which are reffering to the unit as a whole...not individual models.

Ergo , when the IC joins the unit.....he is considered part of the unit as a whole.

I know the FNP doesn't confer to the unit, I think you're missing why I'm making that analogy.

The devastator squad has relentless. The plague marine squad has feel no pain. If an independent character is attached to either of these units, he is part of the unit but he does not gain the rule that only applies to the squad itself.

NintendoTed wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Yeah, this is pro stance.

Con stance is that the IC is not a part of the formation and therefore doesn't benefit from the rules and vice cersa(as found in IC rules).

But there was a 21 page thread on this and this particular can of worms doesn't need to be opened again.

Except, nowhere in the rules book under Formations - Pg. 121 is that written. or anywhere else in the book. Where are you getting these quote "Facts"?

Because con stance didn't come from this set of rules. Their argument came from the IC rules, found on page 166 - more specifically, where special rules don't confer from the unit onto the IC and vice versa.

Using the IC rules to support the con stance is to ignore the IC rules. Just after we are told that ICs and units do not share special rules, we are told the exception is when the effects of a rule are applied to the unit while the IC is attached. The Cons keep ignoring this, which is why their stance fails.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Using the IC rules to support the con stance is to ignore the IC rules. Just after we are told that ICs and units do not share special rules, we are told the exception is when the effects of a rule are applied to the unit while the IC is attached. The Cons keep ignoring this, which is why their stance fails.

The cons are not ignoring this, but our argument is that the FtFttB special rule does not state it is applied to the whole unit only the "Assault Squad" army list entry that has to be taken as part of the formation. Other special rules state when they are applied to the entire unit by using wording that almost exclusively uses the word "model(s)". Since there is a lack of this wording in the FtFttB special rule you default to the IC rules; "...units special rules are not conferred...".

As I said, this thread doesn't need to be done again. Roll off if you have a disagreement.

Or you know, never play them again because both parties are stubborn and refuse to back down until someone gets tired of trying to be louder.

General Bob wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Using the IC rules to support the con stance is to ignore the IC rules. Just after we are told that ICs and units do not share special rules, we are told the exception is when the effects of a rule are applied to the unit while the IC is attached. The Cons keep ignoring this, which is why their stance fails.

The cons are not ignoring this, but our argument is that the FtFttB special rule does not state it is applied to the whole unit only the "Assault Squad" army list entry that has to be taken as part of the formation. Other special rules state when they are applied to the entire unit by using wording that almost exclusively uses the word "model(s)". Since there is a lack of this wording in the FtFttB special rule you default to the IC rules; "...units special rules are not conferred...".

As he said, the rule for the Formation is aplied to the formation before the start of the game, the Unit get that benefit BEFORE the game start, BEFORE the unit is placed in reserve, and that's why the rule is applied BEFORE the IC can join the unit, so, the IC is not in the unit and can't benefit from it.

General Bob wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Using the IC rules to support the con stance is to ignore the IC rules. Just after we are told that ICs and units do not share special rules, we are told the exception is when the effects of a rule are applied to the unit while the IC is attached. The Cons keep ignoring this, which is why their stance fails.

The cons are not ignoring this, but our argument is that the FtFttB special rule does not state it is applied to the whole unit only the "Assault Squad" army list entry that has to be taken as part of the formation. Other special rules state when they are applied to the entire unit by using wording that almost exclusively uses the word "model(s)". Since there is a lack of this wording in the FtFttB special rule you default to the IC rules; "...units special rules are not conferred...".

"
And this is only really the one main point of contention, When they make a reference to "Assault Squads" are they refering to the "Assasult Marines" individually?....Or as a Unit as a whole?

They dont specify , and people are infurring either one way......or the other,based on no factual suporting documentation, and instead refering ot other similar cited non-relavent examples.

By simply stating that the special rules from this formation are not inclusive to any Independent Chars. is to assume.....
.
1: By joining an Independent Char. to any unit in this formation while in reserve automatically causes them to lose all there special rules. Since the Independent Char. cant benefit from "Shock Deployment" the whole Formation cant deploy using "Shock Deployment" as it would violate the sharing of rules and the Independent Char. cant leave a unit during any other phase other than the "Movement Phase"

or to assume......

2: Independant Chars. just cant join any units from this Formation. Until what?.....after they deployed? Dumb. /facepalm


Its much greater of a leap to make all those assumptions, and thats exactly what they are, assumptions and not facts or written rules, than to assume that when they reference "Assault Squads" that they are refering to the unit as a whole instead of Individual models in the unit.

NintendoTed wrote:
And this is only really the one main point of contention, When they make a reference to "Assault Squads" are they refering to the "Assasult Marines" individually?....Or as a Unit as a whole?

There is no model called "Assault Marine" or "Devastator Marine". In both units you have "Space Marine", "Space Marine Sergeant" and "Space Marine Veteran Sergeant". As such "Assault Squad" must refer to the unit since that is the only thing called "Assault Squad".

Wallur wrote:
As he said, the rule for the Formation is aplied to the formation before the start of the game, the Unit get that benefit BEFORE the game start, BEFORE the unit is placed in reserve, and that's why the rule is applied BEFORE the IC can join the unit, so, the IC is not in the unit and can't benefit from it.

What?.....where does this imaginary phase of the game take place? Since my Apothecary grants FnP to all models in the unit when he was chosen as part of my army selection before the game begins and before my Independent Char. can join the Unit, he there by cannot benefit from FnP?


ROFL WHAT?.......

/facepalm

NintendoTed wrote: By simply stating that the special rules from this formation are not inclusive to any Independent Chars. is to assume.....
.
1: By joining an Independent Char. to any unit in this formation while in reserve automatically causes them to lose all there special rules. Since the Independent Char. cant benefit from "Shock Deployment" the whole Formation cant deploy using "Shock Deployment" as it would violate the sharing of rules and the Independent Char. cant leave a unit during any other phase other than the "Movement Phase"

or to assume......

2: Independant Chars. just cant join any units from this Formation. Until what?.....after they deployed? Dumb. /facepalm


Its much greater of a leap to make all those assumptions, and thats exactly what they are, assumptions and not facts or written rules, than to assume that when they reference "Assault Squads" that they are refering to the unit as a whole instead of Individual models in the unit.

1. If you can choose IC not to join it... but if you do, the formation can't deploy using "Shock Deployment", It deploys the way the IC could enter from reserves.
2. It can, but as I just said.

And as I said, the Formation gain the rule before you choose who is in reserves and who is in the table... then, the IC joins the unit of the formation when both are in reserves, so the Formation had already gained the rule BEFORE the IC joins the unit, therefore it don't gain that rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NintendoTed wrote:

Wallur wrote:
As he said, the rule for the Formation is aplied to the formation before the start of the game, the Unit get that benefit BEFORE the game start, BEFORE the unit is placed in reserve, and that's why the rule is applied BEFORE the IC can join the unit, so, the IC is not in the unit and can't benefit from it.

What?.....where does this imaginary phase of the game take place? Since my Apothecary grants FnP to all models in the unit when he was chosen as part of my army selection before the game begins and before my Independent Char. can join the Unit, he there by cannot benefit from FnP?


ROFL WHAT?.......

/facepalm

I'm talking about SkyHammer
And it's not a phase, Formation have the special rules specified by the Formation Dataslate when you build your army list, they start the game with those rules, they don't gain them during play, It's like saying a MC gain Hammer of Wrath, Smash, Relentless and Move Through Cover when they are deployed...
So, as the Formation already has the rule when is placed in reserves, it already has the rule when the IC join the unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

NintendoTed wrote:
And this is only really the one main point of contention, When they make a reference to "Assault Squads" are they refering to the "Assasult Marines" individually?....Or as a Unit as a whole?

There is no model called "Assault Marine" or "Devastator Marine". In both units you have "Space Marine", "Space Marine Sergeant" and "Space Marine Veteran Sergeant". As such "Assault Squad" must refer to the unit since that is the only thing called "Assault Squad".

My good friend would and does argue that , because it doesnt specifically state " All models in the Assault Squad Unit", that the use of the word "Assault Squads" only refers to the specific army list entry and there by applies to "only" the Marines in the squad doesnt apply to the Unit as a whole....but your right.....there isnt such a thing named "Assault Marine".

NintendoTed wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

NintendoTed wrote:
And this is only really the one main point of contention, When they make a reference to "Assault Squads" are they refering to the "Assasult Marines" individually?....Or as a Unit as a whole?

There is no model called "Assault Marine" or "Devastator Marine". In both units you have "Space Marine", "Space Marine Sergeant" and "Space Marine Veteran Sergeant". As such "Assault Squad" must refer to the unit since that is the only thing called "Assault Squad".

My good friend would and does argue that , because it doesnt specifically state " All models in the Assault Squad Unit", that the use of the word "Assault Squads" only refers to the specific army list entry and there by applies to "only" the Marines in the squad doesnt apply to the Unit as a whole....but your right.....there isnt such a thing named "Assault Marine".

There are a few different ways to write the rules that GW uses.
A unit that contains a model with this special rule....
A model with this special rule...
A unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule...
This unit may...

The first requires a single model in the unit to have the rule and every model benefits. Example: Fearless
The second is a special rule that only applies to the specific model - if a model in the unit does not have it, they do not benefit. Example: Smash
The third benefits the entire unit, however only if every model has the special rule. If one model does not have the special rule, the unit cannot use it. Example: Fleet
The fourth is basically a catch-all. Since it refers to a unit (whether a unit in general, or a specific unit), it is similar to group 1. Not every model has to have the rule, but every model in the unit benefits.


But let me ask you this. We are playing a game. We both have a CAD. You have an HQ IC attached to a Troop unit. The IC is the only model within 3" of an objective at the end of the game. I have a Troop unit (with no attached IC) within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective, or is it contested?

Quote - 1. If you can choose IC not to join it... but if you do, the formation can't deploy using "Shock Deployment", It deploys the way the IC could enter from reserves.
2. It can, but as I just said.

And as I said, the Formation gain the rule before you choose who is in reserves and who is in the table... then, the IC joins the unit of the formation when both are in reserves, so the Formation had already gained the rule BEFORE the IC joins the unit, therefore it don't gain that rule.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
REPEAT

Let me break it down for you,

1: it doesnt matter when a unit aquires special rules, where they are included as part of army selection or aquired later in the game via a psyker. Special Rules that apply to the unit "as a whole" apply to all the models in the unit.

Pg. 9 Units

Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections or similarly named groups.......

In Warhammer 40,000 we represent this by grouping models together into units.


Pg. 166 Joining an Leaving a Unit - bottom paragraph

While an Independant Char. is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes,.........


How hard is that to understand.....


When a IC joins a unit.....he ceases to be a unit unto himself.......until he leaves....for all inetents an purposes is a model of the assault squad......and benefits from its on going special rules.

And clearly when they say "Assault Squad" they are refering to the unit as a whole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

NintendoTed wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

NintendoTed wrote:
And this is only really the one main point of contention, When they make a reference to "Assault Squads" are they refering to the "Assasult Marines" individually?....Or as a Unit as a whole?

There is no model called "Assault Marine" or "Devastator Marine". In both units you have "Space Marine", "Space Marine Sergeant" and "Space Marine Veteran Sergeant". As such "Assault Squad" must refer to the unit since that is the only thing called "Assault Squad".

My good friend would and does argue that , because it doesnt specifically state " All models in the Assault Squad Unit", that the use of the word "Assault Squads" only refers to the specific army list entry and there by applies to "only" the Marines in the squad doesnt apply to the Unit as a whole....but your right.....there isnt such a thing named "Assault Marine".

There are a few different ways to write the rules that GW uses.
A unit that contains a model with this special rule....
A model with this special rule...
A unit comprised entirely of models with this special rule...
This unit may...

The first requires a single model in the unit to have the rule and every model benefits. Example: Fearless
The second is a special rule that only applies to the specific model - if a model in the unit does not have it, they do not benefit. Example: Smash
The third benefits the entire unit, however only if every model has the special rule. If one model does not have the special rule, the unit cannot use it. Example: Fleet
The fourth is basically a catch-all. Since it refers to a unit (whether a unit in general, or a specific unit), it is similar to group 1. Not every model has to have the rule, but every model in the unit benefits.


But let me ask you this. We are playing a game. We both have a CAD. You have an HQ IC attached to a Troop unit. The IC is the only model within 3" of an objective at the end of the game. I have a Troop unit (with no attached IC) within 3" of the same objective. Do I control the objective, or is it contested?

Its considered contested.....

why?

pg. 166 left side...bottom paragraph : While an Independent Char. is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Here is the paradigm:

Independent Characters and units they join do not share Special Rules. Marines and Sergeants do not gain Zealot when a Chaplain joins them. A Chapter Master does not gain Slow and Purposeful by joining Centurion Squads. A Blood Angel Librarian does not get Stubborn by joining a Dark Angel unit with Grim Resolve. This is a fact, and incontrovertible. The rules they actually possess are only the rules on the datasheets they are associated with.

Why then are those Marines,Sergeants, Chapter Masters, and Librarians able to have those benefits? The rules themselves state that the "unit" receives the benefits. This wording is general and non-specific because these are Universal Rules, and can be carried by either Independent Character or numerous models in a unit from the time of purchase.

Datasheet Special Rules have less need to be so general, and so organize things a bit more tightly. The Drop Pod Rules carry all the same rules that the devastator squads and assault squads possess, but either does not need them (a Drop Pod cannot Charge) or is deliberately excluded (don't want the Drop Pods to force people to Go To Ground). So, there are rules that only the units can take advantage of.

These units are called out by name in three of the Skyhammer rules. It is the name of the unit, and I know this because of the datasheet legend. Saying that calling a unit name isn't really calling a unit is disingenuous at best, and outright deceiving at worst. Saying that it only calls out the unit entry list is also deceiving yourself or others, because an unit entry list cannot disembark, Charge, or Shoot.

If a rule initially calls out the unit, but is only specific to the models carrying the rule, then it will specify models with the special rule. See Counter-Attack for such an example.

The situation is really quite simple. I don't know why people insist on making this game far more complicated than it has to be.

I think a lot of people even in ymdc allow their personal thoughts on the matter to influence their reading of the rules. In this case, many of them believe that having the asm squad drag a super Killy IC like Dante and an angel's wing priest into a 1st turn charge is pretty OP.

I happen to agree on that bit. That seems like a game wrecking move in most situations, and not something I'd do to anyone in a real game.

Beyond that though, after reading all the rules carefully, I think it is technically legal. If you don't wanna face it, you can always turn down the game.

Charistoph wrote:
Here is the paradigm:

Independent Characters and units they join do not share Special Rules. Marines and Sergeants do not gain Zealot when a Chaplain joins them. A Chapter Master does not gain Slow and Purposeful by joining Centurion Squads. A Blood Angel Librarian does not get Stubborn by joining a Dark Angel unit with Grim Resolve. This is a fact, and incontrovertible. The rules they actually possess are only the rules on the datasheets they are associated with.

Why then are those Marines,Sergeants, Chapter Masters, and Librarians able to have those benefits? The rules themselves state that the "unit" receives the benefits. This wording is general and non-specific because these are Universal Rules, and can be carried by either Independent Character or numerous models in a unit from the time of purchase.

Datasheet Special Rules have less need to be so general, and so organize things a bit more tightly. The Drop Pod Rules carry all the same rules that the devastator squads and assault squads possess, but either does not need them (a Drop Pod cannot Charge) or is deliberately excluded (don't want the Drop Pods to force people to Go To Ground). So, there are rules that only the units can take advantage of.

These units are called out by name in three of the Skyhammer rules. It is the name of the unit, and I know this because of the datasheet legend. Saying that calling a unit name isn't really calling a unit is disingenuous at best, and outright deceiving at worst. Saying that it only calls out the unit entry list is also deceiving yourself or others, because an unit entry list cannot disembark, Charge, or Shoot.

If a rule initially calls out the unit, but is only specific to the models carrying the rule, then it will specify models with the special rule. See Counter-Attack for such an example.

The situation is really quite simple. I don't know why people insist on making this game far more complicated than it has to be.

Now compare those 3 rules you listed as examples to Feel No Pain, Relentless, or It Will Not Die. Why then are the independent characters not able to have those benefits? Some are shared, some are not. Where are you proving that this case has more in common with Slow and Purposeful than (ironically) with Relentless which you want to share and is listed as a rule that doesn't get shared?

Nobody is saying they aren't a unit at all. We're saying the rule is attached to the models that come from the Devastator Squad (or Assault Squad) data sheet only. Otherwise, we can take formations like the Aspect Host and attached IC's will get +1 BS, or attach some infantry to a unit of flesh hounds from the Gorepack and suddenly they have Hammer of Wrath.

I even play Space Marines (as well as far too many other armies) and I still don't think anything shows that this rule extends past the models on the Devastator Squad entry itself.

The effect is applied upon arriving, the units effected are the Devastator and Asssult Squads. Until the Cons can prove that a Devastator Squad wth an attached IC is not a Devastator Squad, their argument has no weight.

SJ

Let me show you the logical approach I came at this with when I questioned whether this was feasible or not.

1.) I read the formation and saw First the Fire granted to a Devastator Squad, so I turned to the Devastator Squad dataslate and added it to the list of special rules (assuming I'm going to meet the formation requirements).

2.) I turned to the Captain dataslate and saw no such rule listed. I double check the formation and see no mention of adding the rule to the Captain's list of special rules. (Note, no units are combined here yet, we're just looking at the special rules on dataslates and seeing who is granted what.)

3.) I determine the Devastator Squad has a special rule that the Captain does not and turn to page 166 in the rulebook.

4.) I notice the line "Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character". I check the example of a rule that does confer and note the line "when a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" which is absent from First the Fire.

5.) I conclude that I cannot drop in a chapter master with the devastator squad and use an orbital bombardment.

It's easy to see that you read the part on ICs and Special Rules, then completely stopped the section on ICs and On-going Effects. Because if you hadn't, you would realize why your argument fails. Yes, First the Fire then the Blade is s special rule. However, both the Relentless and the charge from Deep Strike abilities are on-going effects that trigger upon arrival and last until the end of your turn. These effects are applied to the Devastator and Assault Squads when the squads arrive. Per the BRB, ICs equally benefit or are penalized by effects applied to the unit they are attached to. This means Relentless for a turn as well as charging from Deep Strike.

I'm also going to assume you are ignoring this rule, too:

CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too, as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of the unit.

SJ