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After many a discussion on this thread, I have decided to write down some improvements to the AM codex that may be worthwhile.
Before I start, however, here are the perceived issues in the codex:
-Russ Tanks are generally overcosted
-Ranged anti-armour is insufficient
-Troops are overcosted, but are bordering on too cheap to be viable model-wise.
-Tempestus are almost useless, especially given their points cost
-Rough Riders and Ogryns are in need of a fix
-Getting a higher model count should not be a priority, unless it involves already elitist things in the AM codex
Anything left unmentioned is not intended to be changed yet, or may simply be in the queue.
---------------------------------------------------------
HQ:
Spoiler:
[----------]
Ursarkar E. Creed:
-Gains Tactical Genius Creed may give the Scout rule to D3 units in his detachment
[----------]
Troops:
Spoiler:
[----------]
Veterans [Points: 48]
Veteran: Ws 4 // Bs 4 // Str 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 1 // Ld 8 // Sv 5+
Options:
-You may take up to 4 extra veterans for [8 points each]
-Two Veterans may form a Veteran Weapons Team (Basically a Vet model with 2 wounds and a big gun) who must take one item from the
Heavy Weapons list.
-One Veteran may carry a vox-caster [5 pts]
-Up to three Veterans may take a Special Weapon
-A Vendetta, Valkyrie, Chimera or Taurox may be taken as a Dedicated Transport
Mission Type:
-Skirmish Fighting (All veterans in this unit have Carapace Armour) [15 pts]
-Interception (All Veterans in this unit have Camo-Cloaks, and on turn 1 may fire twice, excluding grenades) [25 pts]
-Demolitions (All Veterans in this unit have Melta Bombs. One Veteran has a Demolition Charge) [30 pts]
[----------]
Dedicated Transports:
Spoiler:
Chimeras: Exactly as per the codex, but 15 points cheaper.
Elites:
Spoiler:
[----------]
Spotters [60 pts]
Spotter: Ws 3 // Bs 3 // Str 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 3 // A 1 // Ld 7 // Sv 5+
Unit size: 6
Wargear:
Lasgun
Flak Armour
Special Rules:
Spotter (At the end of the movement phase, this unit may nominate one enemy unit in Line of Sight and within 24". Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit during the following shooting phase only scatter up to D6")
[----------]
Ogryns:
-
Wyrdvane Pskyers:
-
Fast Attack:
Spoiler:
Vendetta:
-Now 150 points per model
Hellhound
-Hellhound and all variants dropped to 100 points each
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
[----------]
Leman Russ Battletank - 120 pts
Leman Russ - BS3 AV14/13/10 HP3
Wargear:
-Hull Heavy Bolter
-Searchlight
-Smoke Launchers
Special Rules:
-Lumbering Behemoth
-Independent Firing
Lumbering Behemoth: Whenever this model fires an Ordnance weapon, its other weapons fire at normal BS. Due to the extremely heavy and thick armor plates and ancient designs, the Leman Russ also has a 5+ save against Glancing hits.
Independent Firing: This model's turret weapon may choose a different target from the rest of this model's weapons.
Leman Russ Tanks:
Options:
Each Leman Russ Tank MUST take one of the following turrets:
-Eradicator Nova Cannon (+0 points)
-Exterminator Autocannon (+10 points)
-Vanquisher Battlecannon (+15 points) Has Vanquisher Rounds, which remove 2HP on a penetrating hit. -Punisher Gatling Gun (+20 points)
-Battlecannon (+20 points)
-Demolisher Cannon (+30 points)
-Executioner Plasma Cannon (+35 points) Minus the Gets Hot rule
Each Leman Russ Tank may take one of the following sponson weapons:
-Heavy Bolters (+20 points)
-Multi Meltas (+20 points)
-Plasma Cannons (+30 points)
-Lascannons (+40 points)
A Battle Tank may take items from the Astra Militarum Vehicle Equipment List
If a Battle Tank is driven by a Tank Commander it may be upgraded with:
-Ablative Armour (Adding +1 Hull Point) (+20 points)
[----------]
Lord Of War
Spoiler:
General tweaks:
-Power weapons should be 10 ppm, rather than 15
-Power fists should be 20 ppm, rather than 25
-Baneblade and Variants should be able to take the first pair of sponsons for free
Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/01 13:14:06
Typically-Wardian wrote: Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Sorry, but do you even play this game?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Typically-Wardian wrote: Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
Haywire, deepstriking melta, melee units with krak grenades...
Also, ten Russes in a 1500 point list means no screening units and few upgrades.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
Basilisks certainly aren't. I would make him an attachment for a CCS or PCS though.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
That Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant is paying ~3 times his point cost for a weapon that strikes at strength and initiative 3.
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
I would probably tone this down a little though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
That is also Doomsday Ark territory. In addition, this rule already exists in the Forgeworld Armored Battle Group list.
Haywire, deepstriking melta, melee units with krak grenades...
Also, ten Russes in a 1500 point list means no screening units and few upgrades.
Basilisks certainly aren't. I would make him an attachment for a CCS or PCS though.
That Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant is paying ~3 times his point cost for a weapon that strikes at strength and initiative 3.
When you can put down 10 Av14 vehicles, you auto win.
When was the last time you played, 4th Edition?!
Seriously, Russes are NOT very good. Besides which, you CAN'T get "easily" get 10 of them in a 1500 point army! If you use naked LRBTs then that comes to 1500 points exactly. If you use Exterminators or Eradicators then you have a little bit left over for minimal Troops and HQ.
When you can put down 10 Av14 vehicles, you auto win.
Hence why IG have been dominating tournaments... oh, wait, no they haven't. Because AV14 means bugger-all when the game is full to the brim with Haywire, Gauss, D-weapons and so on.
But gotta watch out for those blasts, right? I mean, 450pts of Battle Tanks can expect to strip a whole wound off a Wraithknight! How can anyone possibly stand against that kind of firepower?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
I look away from Dakka for long enough to watch some Blackadder, and it goes mad.
To answer your points in order:
-A 4 HP Russ, I'm told, is an existing upgrade in IA1's Armoured Battle Group. It's not all that spammable, due to the high cost and limited availability of Tank Commanders. Russes have always had the problem of being hull'd to death, and 20 points isn't an unreasonable price to pay for some adamantium sheets to cover your tank's weaker areas. Especially when it can be brought back down with a 20 point Lascannon, or a 10 point Meltagun. Or a 5 point Meltabomb. Or any of those free Krak grenades MEQ's love so much.
-Russ tanks are not underpriced. Some of them are good as they are. Like the Eradicator or the Exterminator. Arguably the Punisher, too. But Battlecannon Russes and Demolisers are pretty much always ineffective for the cost. Demolishers have a crippling weakenss to everything - they are short-ranged, and will take until Turn 2-3 to hit something. They cannot fire any other guns, as the sponsons atm are a waste of points, they move 6" per turn, they become useless if anything scores a penetrating hit on them, as "Crew Shaken" removes their firepower for a turn, "Crew Stunned turns them into a piece of scenery for a turn, "Immobilized" makes them useless for the rest of the game, "Weapon Destroyed" has a 50/50 chance at removing the cannon, and "Explodes" explodes them. Dropping Demos by 20 points, LRBT's by 10 and adding Lumbering Behemoth solves 90% of the problems with Russes.
Russes also have a worrying tendency to be killed by/before T3 anyway.
-I take it you've never seen any in action, have you? Spotters in a CCS / PCS, I have an open mind on the subject. How about as a Regimental Adviser, or similar?
-As mentioned above, the IG power weapons work at a lower strength, lower initiative, lower durability and lower accuracy and (often) lower attack count than all other power weapons. Costing the same as everyone else is nowhere near fair.
-Salvo 2/4 with Str 3 Ap - makes Veterans capable of killing their points worth over 2-3 turns, against MEQ's. They won't survive 2-3 turns. 30", I can see why there may be contention over that, but here's the discussion over it.
I'm not sure Baneblades need a nerf. They're powerful, but expensive, and die quickly to suicide deepstrike units and the like without proper protection. They're also very nice and fluffy option that won't make you instantly lose friends.
Hellhounds need something. Give them Scout, or drop them to 110 for the Hellhound and 115 for the Banewolf and Devil Dog.
The Elites slot is just terrible. Wyrdvane Psykers need unique powers/ boosts to Warp Charges based on the number in the unit. Rough Riders need a general rework. Ogryns need a price drop.
Oh, and roll the Scions codex into the Guard by making Scion Command Squads unlock Scions as troops.
Hellhounds should be around 75 pts, same goes for the variants, as the stock model that they are. Chimeras maybe not at 5, maybe 55, give them an option for Autocannon Turrets at 5 pts each. Make Vetereans an upgrade for HWS and SWS as well.
Leman Russes need a bigger fix than just Lumbering Behemoth, imo, but it's certainly a start.
First of all they need some way to target a different unit with their TURRET weapon. Such a damn simple fix and they could do it in 2nd edition which made them suh-weet but now they just suck.
Also I think there should be a Grav Cannon w/Amp Turret for Leman Russes. That would be a cool change, too bad it likely won't happen IRL since the kit is already made.
If they could fire at a different target with their Turret and had Lumbering Behemoth I'd say they would be fair at 140. Then make Demolishers 150.
Also, here's another idea: Lumbering Behemoth (or Ablative Armor) grants a 5+ save against all Glancing Hits due to the extremely primitive and hulking nature of the Leman Russ. This would remove all those issues with Haywire and (especially) Gauss.
So here:
Leman Russ Battletank - 140 pts
Leman Russ - BS3 AV14/13/10 HP3
Wargear:
-Turret Battlecannon
-Hull Heavy Bolter
Special Rules:
-Lumbering Behemoth
-Independent Firing
Lumbering Behemoth: Whenever this model fires an Ordnance weapon, its other weapons fire at normal BS. Due to the extremely heavy and thick armor plates and ancient designs, the Leman Russ also has a 5+ save against Glancing hits.
Independent Firing: This model's turret weapon may choose a different target from the rest of this model's weapons.
All other options stay the same.
Also I'm thinking the Grav would be a replacement for the Demolisher cannon and it'd be Free or +5 points. Thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/01 14:54:31
It's fine - we'll just have to make do with our grenade launchers. Those things are lethal...
...if swallowed.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
vipoid wrote: It's fine - we'll just have to make do with our grenade launchers. Those things are lethal...
...if swallowed.
Poisoned Grenade Launchers. I think that the Imperium would have figured out how to make chemical weapons that are jsut as lethal as most other races poisoned weapons.
Lord Corellia wrote: Grav is a Space Marine weapon primarily. Regular Guard won't get it.
Adeptus Mechanicus get Grav as well, it's not that big of a deal if a Leman Russ gets it. And at this point in the game "fluff" is an exceedingly poor counter-argument.
I'd much rather a different tank though, perhaps based on a Russ chassis but more like a Vindicator, where the grav is hull-mounted rather than turret-mounted. Yes, this would suck for effectiveness, but would be more interesting I feel. Make it a "relic of the Great Crusade" or something like that.
But feth it, who are we kidding? This will probably be in the next Codex, as it will sell a gak load of newly redesigned Leman Russ kits. People will NEED to buy them because their older variants will just be a heap of gak in comparison. The GW arms race...
Lord Corellia wrote: I'd much rather a different tank though, perhaps based on a Russ chassis but more like a Vindicator, where the grav is hull-mounted rather than turret-mounted. Yes, this would suck for effectiveness, but would be more interesting I feel. Make it a "relic of the Great Crusade" or something like that.
But feth it, who are we kidding? This will probably be in the next Codex, as it will sell a gak load of newly redesigned Leman Russ kits. People will NEED to buy them because their older variants will just be a heap of gak in comparison. The GW arms race...
LOL, I created an SPG jsut like that called the Bombadier, Vindicator style IG tank with more powerful Demolisher, Battle, Vanquisher Cannon. Grav cannon would actually be a nice idea for a gun. Here's another idea, give us the ability to take Assualt Cannons as special weapons and Chimera turrets for 10-15pts. Is there even an in-fluff justification for why we can't use those?
saithor wrote: LOL, I created an SPG jsut like that called the Bombadier, Vindicator style IG tank with more powerful Demolisher, Battle, Vanquisher Cannon. Grav cannon would actually be a nice idea for a gun. Here's another idea, give us the ability to take Assualt Cannons as special weapons and Chimera turrets for 10-15pts. Is there even an in-fluff justification for why we can't use those?
Hmmm, I could see a point against it being available for heavy weapon teams. The sheer amount of ammo needed for its rate of fire would be more than two guys could carry. Obviously, this wouldn't be an issue on a vehicle. I'd love to have access to assault cannons for my Guard.
Typically-Wardian wrote: Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
Ghost arks have 4 HP's and they're AV11 vehicles.
Russ tanks are heavy battle tanks, and their survivability is very thin for what they offer within the context of the current metagame.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
Plenty of armies have the firepower to deal with that. Every army since the Necron release can deal with that. Between the mass of D weapons, Gauss, Haywire, and Grav out, massed Russ tanks are a joke.
There's a reason you don't see IG armies of massed Russ tanks overrunning tournaments, or even attending tournaments, there's a huge number of hardcounters that make them really quite bad.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
And you see Basilisks in how many lists? Nearly zero. Mortars? Probably literally zero.
Wyverns are about the only artillery units anyone ever sees, and they already get to twin link their weapons.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
Because other armies are using them with WS4 S4 I4 or on WS5 I5 units and the like, not WS3 S3 I3, and that makes a vast difference in the value of the powerweapon.
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Lasguns? hardly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
Baneblades are hardly some of the best vehicles in the game. They're certainly not going to solo entire armies unless you're trying to footslog a bunch of tactical marines across an empty board at it.
As far as superheavies go, they're thoroughly mediocre at best. Any army that can deal with a trio of kitted Leman Russ tanks can deal with a Baneblade typically even easier (as they can concentrate their AT more effectively). You don't see Baneblades in tournament lists that allow Superheavies, and there's a reason for that. They're underwhelming for what they cost.
When you can put down 10 Av14 vehicles, you auto win.
This is something that has been possible since 4E, and has never dominated tournaments where allowed, and certainly isn't true today. You will not find FW Armored Battlegroup lists dominating anything. You don't see IG armies running 9 Russ Tanks appearing in, much less winning tournaments. Your estimation of their capabilities is vastly over inflated.
If you can throw down 5 Knights, you can facecrush a lot of people, but they're throwing out the firepower of roughly ten Leman Russ tanks with similar HP counts, far more mobility, and devastating CC attacks to boot, and even those have lots of hardcounters.
Not to be offensive, but it looks like you're assessing all of this from a mid 5E perspective. If this were still 2010, you might have a point with most of these things. As is, in 2015 & 7th edition, things are much different.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/08/01 18:05:51
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Tank Commander: Don't really see the point of this- it makes what is already pretty much the best HQ even more of an auto-take. Needing the commander buddy forces the player to commit to having Russes on the field instead of exploiting the rules to have a +1 tank and fill the HQ slot simultaneously. I would only support being able to take it as a stand-alone if doing so prevented it from being chosen as your mandatory HQ.
Veterans: A salvo weapon seems at odds with a unit that by design appears to want to be on the move most of the time. Something like an assault 3 18'' las-carbine seems more fitting. Maybe throw pinning in there.
Spotter: Needs a range. RAW, it can sit on the edge of your table and spot all day with impunity. Using markerlights as a template, 24'' seems good.
Chimera change is fine.
Russ changes seem fine.
- - - - - -
- I would have all special and heavy weapons cost 5 points less than their Marine equivalents (to a minimum of 5 points) when equipped on WS3/BS3 models. Knock another 5 points off power-weapons to take into account the lesser strength of GEQ.
- Priests go up to 50 points, Commissars have a leadership bubble while Lord Commissars may choose draconian discipline as their warlord trait- draconian discipline becomes army-wide stubborn. LC goes up to 90 points.
- I would change HWT's to 1 wound, then price them as regular guardsmen (5ppm), with each team being required to take a heavy weapon upgrade. A base unit of three with autocannons would therefore be 30 points (15 for the three teams + 15 for the three autocannons), while 6 with lascannons would be 120 (30 for 6 teams + 90 for the 6 lascannons). With only one wound per team they have zero staying power, but at that price range it doesn't really matter, and you can stack firepower very easily.
- I would allow guardsmen units, veterans and conscripts to swap their lasguns with pistol+CCW's for free, with Veterans having the choice to purchase the combo in addition to their lasgun for 1ppm. Give the beastmen armies and feudal armies of yore some love.
- I would change HSLG's profile to str3 AP3, assault 2 with shred. Turn stormtroopers into CSM Chosen, with each model having the option to exchange their HSLG's with special weapons. Give them infiltrate and a D6'' scatter deep-strike option, and a special rule that allows them to choose at the start of the match either once-per-game pinning on their ranged weapons, or once-per-game preferred enemy (everything). 12ppm.
- Ogryns go down to 25ppm, bullgryns drop to 35.
- Wyrdvane Psykers become ML2 if possessing more than 5 models.
- Scout Sentinel is changed to 12'' move, armored sentinel weapons all become twin-linked. +5ppm for each.
- Hellhound and Bane Wolf go down to 100 points. Devildog needs more than a points-drop to be effective- I'll think on it.
- Vendetta drops to 140 points. 3 BS3 lascannons is nothing in 7th edition, even when twin-linked.
- Hydra needs interceptor and ignore's jink.
- Wyern go up to 80 points each to bring it in line with the Whirlwind.
- Basilisk accepts the fact that only 1% of games are played on Apoc tables and has its minimum range dropped to 12''.
- Manticore needs... something. It needs help but more than a points drop will be necessary. The blast size is too much to justify AP2 or AP3, but at AP4 it's all but useless against vehicles and MC's. Dunno.
- Deathstrike becomes strength D, keeps the count-down. 160 points.
Quintinus wrote: And at this point in the game "fluff" is an exceedingly poor counter-argument.
"It would be super cool" isn't an argument at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/01 19:04:41
Quintinus wrote: And at this point in the game "fluff" is an exceedingly poor counter-argument.
"It would be super cool" isn't an argument at all.
HAHAHAHAHA are you trolling? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not slowed.
Wow you really are dense. If you don't see there being actual reasoning for a Grav Leman Russ other than countering the increase of extremely powerful Monstrous Creatures then I can't help you. Sorry you lack the ability to infer ideas beyond the actual text there.
P.S.
seems more fitting
isn't an argument
Nostalgia isn't an argument
Dunno.
isn't an argument
Just stop, if you have a problem with what I said, then your reasoning is just as flawed in many of your points.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/01 20:09:03
Imperial Guard already have counters to monstrous creatures and terminators, so what design-hole would a grav-russ be filling, exactly? I'm not really sure what you're on about in the rest of your post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/01 20:14:36
BlaxicanX wrote: Imperial Guard already have counters to monstrous creatures and terminators, so what design-hole would a grav-russ be filling, exactly? I'm not really sure what you're on about in the rest of your post.
Where did I even say Terminators in my post. Guard have extremely poor counters to tougher Monstrous Creatures outside of Forgeworld and Superheavies, so basically Forgeworld.
1. A way to slow down assault armies.
2. Some mobility to get objectives
3. Something scary and a bit OP to worry opponents
4. A bit more utility in all the units. Everything does one thing and for the most part does it bad.
some ideas to fix.
- stealth on all man sized people.
- vehicles get 5++
- chimera 12/11/11
- russ 14/13/12 + superheavy rules
- spotters
- bassy 2 shots
- chimera open topped
- officers come stock with powerweapons (seargents too)
- storm troopers scatter d6 can all take special weapons
- no gets hot on vehicles
- flame tank ap3 + super sized flamer template
- chem tank does d3 wounds ap2 + (6" mini-torrent)
- lasguns + hotshot assault 1 str4
- wyvern 2 shot large blast str 5 ignores cover.
- sentinel mv 12. 4 attacks. power weapon upgrades
right now am blows. there's no tactics for either player. We have to shoot at assault units and hope to get lucky. The opponent just races across the board as fast as possible. If we don't go first we are probably fethed.
It would be nice if we had a way to stop the opponent running right for us with his twolve cavalry/bikes. Something short range that hits really hard or something tough that can be counted on to tie up a unit for 2 turns. large blobs can work but they suck to play and are expensive in points, time, and dollars.
here were my general thoughts on the IG codex as a whole from a different thread
Spoiler:
First and foremost, they can ditch the faux-latin, harry-potter sounding "Astra Militarum" moniker, they're the Imperial Guard.
Now, there's all sorts of insanity that could be undertaken with formations and detachments that I'll avoid for now.
First, they really need Orders to be applied to vehicles, and the HQ tank should just be an upgrade without needing a Squadron, and be able to issue orders the way Infantry command squads can. Voxes also need to function as a range enhancer, not a silly reroll.
However, most IG units need some work, most are still costed and designed to a 5E or even 3E/4E paradigm, and in dire need of assistance, many of which have needed assistance for many years, or in some cases, always since...ever.
Lets go through the list here
HQ:
Commissar Yarrick: 145pts, less survivable than significantly less expensive MEQ characters, not a tremendous degree of utility. If he's going to stay in the same general price range as character like Tigurius, Khan, and the like, he needs to go back to being Fearless and have a fearsome bubble effect. Otherwise he needs a drastic price decrease.
Company Command Squad: Largely actually pretty allright., but certainly could stand to go back down to their 5E costs.
Creed: A very expensive upgrade for an HQ with zero CC potential and only S3 6" range shooting attacks. Kell likewise needs to be paired with him, and costs an absurd number of points.
Straken: Allright, but hugely overcosted.
Deddog: Should be no more than *maybe* 40pts at his current incarnation.
Tank Commander: Make Orders function more like Infantry command squad orders, remove necessity to be in a squadron (where much of his function is just to overcome the detriments of being a Squadron in the first place)
Pask: If Chronus gets to be BS5 and be a W2 Character if his tank dies for just 10pts more than Pask, Pask should really do more than just minorly enhance the main gun for 40pts
Lord Commissar: Sort of functional, but really needs to be like 40/50pts, not 65 base and 80/90 after gear, particularly at T3 with a 5+ save.Somewhat overtaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different.
Commissar: Largeyovertaken by Priests in Utility. I'd give them the Priests Zealot ability and instead give the Priest something different. Unfortunately pointless in most units given the small size, light durability, and low value in most instances.
Priest: Insanely amazing in blob platoons and Ogryn units, otherwise largely pointless. They overtake Commissars in their intended role, I'd make them more combat enhancy than Fearless/morale enhancey.
Primaris Psyker: Unfortuantely they're probably the least impressive psykers in the game for their relative investment. I'm not sure why IG psykers have to be less impressive than anyone else's other than "just because". 50pts for a W2 T3 5+sv lvl1 psyker, or 25pts for a lvl2, isn't particularly stellar.
Engineseer: Hilariously overcosted, really needs the Techmarine/Magos Dominus treatment, better repair ability and a 2nd wound if he's gonna cost 40pts base. That price didn't work in 3E, and it certainly doesn't work in 7E. Perhaps they could be like a 20pt attachment to a vehicle squadron instead?
Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad: Not much needs to be done with these other than the aforementioned Orders changes and a drop back to 5E price.
Infantry Squad: These guys need some help. Blob platoons are sort of functional with some HQ support, however, aside from that, they're really bad. Taken as individual units, they're "cheap" in absolute value, but rather expensive for their relative value, and blobbed without HQ support they are absurdly easy to remove en-masse. 50pts for a 10man "3 statline" Ld7 5+sv model with one BS3 heavy weapon and one BS3 special weapon simple is not an appropriate price any longer.
Heavy Weapons Squad: Oh man, these are amongst the worst units in the codex. They're amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, some of the most expensive infantry heavy weapons in the game. They cost an additional 50% more than equivalent numbers of already rather expensive Infantry Squad models, and that's before they get any guns. The way these function, as W2 T3 Ld7 models simply makes them absurdly vulnerable to destruction by multi-shot S6 weaponry, a single wound getting through kills off 33% of the unit and forces an Ld7 break test. There's several things that could be done here. They could simply be made vastly cheaper to more appropriately reflect their value. Cut 25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we just don't want to make them absurdly cheap, they could be treated differently, much like Gun Teams in Flames of War. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.
Special Weapons Squad: Face much the same issue as the above. Most critically they can't take a transport. Give them a transport option and the ability to at least get Ld8 somehow, and we're back on track.
Conscripts: The "blob" ability of basic Infantry Squads has largely made these guys superfluous. I think they should be taken out of the Platoon altogether and be made a simple Troops choice on their own.
Veterans: Largely ok.
Harker: 55pts for an S4 rending Heavy Bolter? 10pts? Sure. 15pts? Maybe. 55pts? That's easily 4x his actual value.
Dedicated Transports:
Chimera: This thing simply needs to be cheaper. 65pts for a transport with a single non-AV10 facing, with BS3 guns, no Fast or Skimmer benefits, a single rear-facing hatch, and that carries T3 5+sv infantry? Absolutely needs to be cheaper. If they want to boost its side armor, then it might be worth 65pts, but at its current stats? Especially after the reduction in fire points? 55pts tops.
Taurox: It's ugly. It's rather pointless. It was unasked for. It fills no role or niche. That said, GW's not going to cut it. If it's going to be kept, with lower BS and side armor than a Razorback, and transporting crappier troops, it really needs to be either cheaper, or faster. If the basic Taurox were also Fast, it would actually have a purpose and be worth the points. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Taurox Prime: Simply too expensive. 80pts base for something only slightly better armored than a Trukk is absurd. It's got decent firepower and speed, but should probably be 20pts cheaper with each of its weapons upgrade options cut in price by half. Also needs Smoke Launchers as base wargear.
Elites:
Ogryn: This is a prime example of where using Ld as an intelligence reflector does not work. These guys are stupid yes, but always portrayed as insanely brave. Stubborn on an Ld6/7 unit doesn't do that, in fact, Stubborn is largely pointless. These guys really should have very high Ld. They also should be like 15/20ppm less. Fix the Ld and cost issues and you've got a workable unit.
Bullgryns: Same as above for Ogryns.
Ratlings: These guys are T2 Elites with Stealth. They're monstrously overcosted at 10ppm, particularly when you've got things like Eldar Rangers as Troops with T3 & Shrouded and functionally the same run/shoot special rule (and Fleet to boot) along with a much more fearsome secondary weapon, at 12ppm. These guys are worth no more than maybe 7 or 8ppm.
Wyrdvane Psykers: A 60pt ML1 psyker taking up an Elites slot? Really?
Tempestus Scions: Guardsmen Statline, Space Marine cost. Heavy weapon AP, Lasgun strength, even worse range. These guys really need a fix. They should be Ld8/9 not 7/8. Either make the gun S4 and assault 2, or dump the AP entirely, make them actual *stormtroopers*, given them WS4, Furious Charge, get a pistol/CCW, and make the gun S3 Assault 3 18" to make them a more functional short range infiltration tactic archetypal "Stormtrooper" unit.
Fast Attack:
Scout Sentinel Squadron: These guys have one schtick, outflanking, and even that, they're not particularly stellar at. AV10, open topped, HP2 is largely equivalent to T6 W2 Sv-, but worse. At 25pts they might be ok, but not at 35ppm or 105pts for a full unit, not for a very easily killed BS3 model with a multilaser.
Armored Sentinel Squadron: These guys are at least useable, but hardly really a "Fast Attack" unit, and still relatively expensive for what they offer. They could probably do with a 5ppm discount.
Rough Riders: Absolutely terrible. 11ppm for a fast moving guardsmen with a one-use, highly situational power weapon, and isn't a Troops unit. They really need to get the DKoK Death Rider treatment (W2 4+sv, A3 etc) for what they cost now.
Hellhound Squadron & Variants: All of these basically need a 40-55pt price cut. Non-skimmer Fast vehicles with short ranged weaponry costing as much as AV14 Battle Tanks and long ranged Skimmer tanks? There's a reason these are largely absent from most armies. They also need to come with smoke launchers base.
Valkyrie: As a naked transport, it's absurdly pricey for what it offers. For its base loadout, it really shouldn't be anything more than 90pts, not 125. The Hellstrike missiles also need to drop Ordnance unless they're going to make them Large Blast as well.
Vendetta: It's fine.
Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Squadron: Imma break this one up by variant
Leman Russ Battle Tank: needs to have a way to use its non-turret weaponry, firing everything else as snapshots is purely punitive and serves no balance function, particularly on a 150pt BS3 tank.
Leman Russ Demolisher: As above, but also needs to be cheaper. Paying 50pts to lose a point of BS and gain better armor over a Vindicator is absurd.
Leman Russ Vanquisher: A single shot BS3 Meltagun that lacks AP1 is not a terribly functional anti-tank unit. This variant really should be BS4 and AP1, or alternatively, something like a 2 shot main gun. With the changes in vehicles to HP's and the nerfing of the damage table, single shot, high pen weapons are of little value, particularly at BS3 and triple digit points. If it had the Coaxial stubber of FW's iterations, to give rerolls on the main gun, that would help a lot, but it needs AP1 either way to really be worth anything.
Leman Russ Eradicator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Punisher: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Exterminator: Pretty solid.
Leman Russ Executioner: Lose Gets Hot on the main gun. Increase its cost by 15pts if you must. The thing just loses too many shots to Gets Hot and is too likely to kill itself over the course of a game to be a functional unit.
Hydras: oh man these got violated with the last codex. They were amazing in 5E. Situational, mediocre, but functional in 6E. When they got the new rules, they lost their "ignore jink saves" rule, and got made Open Topped, for no good reason. Now, the kit's already out, that's not going to change, so making them Closed Topped again won't happen, at least not as a base unit. However, they really should get their "ignores Jink" rule back. I'd also move them to Elites. They're really not a Heavy Support unit, and with the way an IG army works, they'd really be a better fit there.
Basilisk Battery: The Basilisk has been the same stagnant crap unit for 16 years now. It has no purpose outside of Apocalypse games as it's run now. The minimum range needs to be brought down to something like 12-18", otherwise it might as well not be able to indirectly fire with the vast expanse of the board it can't hit within minimum range without exposing itself otherwise. Indirect fire is not worth losing a crapton of armor and becoming Open Topped over just taking a Leman Russ Battle Tank for 25pts more, and even that isn't a great unit. Also, re-include the Griffon and Medusa.
Wyvern: These should probably go up to 80pts, or lose Ignores Cover. Like the Hydra, I'd also move them to Elites. Leave HS to the big guns, lighter guns should go in Elites.
Manticore: Needs a price-break. At 170pts, with limited ammo, and the changes to the vehicle damage table greatly neutering that S10 (and with AP4 neutering its effectiveness against non-vehicles targets that S10 would otherwise be great against), it's simply too many points to fill any real role aside from killing Necron Warriors in the open. Alternatively, redesign the rockets. Make a dedicate anti-armor/antibuilding rocket and an alternate loadout that's more effective against armored infantry.
Deathstrike: This really shouldn't be a "Codex" unit at all, but since it must be, I'd just remove the limit on when you can shoot it. For 160pts and a one-use unit, a 10" S10 AP1 pieplate just isn't that scary anymore.
Other Wargear:
Enclosed Crew Compartment: Really doesn't need to be 15pts, vehicle kill is through HP's, not damage table, this should be a 5 or 10pt upgrade.
Grenade Launchers: At this point, these simply are not useful enough to be taken unless they were free. Even if free, they'd most likely always typically be replaced. Making them Assault 2 or Rapid Fire or the like would hardly be overpowering, and might make them at least worth considering.
I'd also like to see a more "medium tank" type unit. Something along the lines of a Hellhound, but with maybe a twin linked three shot Autocannon turret for ~90pts?
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I think the list is looking at parts rather than the whole. What does the guard NEED to be better?
IMO, not a lot. There are tons of great things in the book, not the least of which are orders. The problem is that the best thing in the book to receive those orders, tanks, can't. Major bummer dude.
The problem that platoons face is that the awesome destructive power of the las gun is overlooked in favor of heavy weapons. Las guns are mean as hell, doubly so with misfortune or that power from biomancy. Orders make them even more destructive, mobile, and durable, but not all at once. A guardsman may not be great, but give him inspiring leaders and a despotic Commissar, and all of a sudden, that's a well spent set of points.
Now, the las gun blob suffers from low movement and limited shooting target choices (infantry unless you add in psychic powers). To overcome this, you need to have other elements there to make up for it. Heavy weapons squads and vets/special weapon squads in transports are what leap to mind. The issues are transport price/utility and heavy weapon squad durability for cost. To deal with this, you can add in a formation rule where you can't blob up but your chimeras/tauroxes are free. Tauroxes and chimeras could both use a 10 point drop and tauroxes need...something to keep them on par with chimeras. Heavy weapons just need tweaks to ld and durability, things like eternal warrior, detaching guys from a nearby blob to re-man the guns, or T4/5. Order boosting is as simple as giving them access to a vox caster for 5 pts per squad.
For making useless things useful:
Ogryns need to be cheaper, MT need to be cheaper, artillery tanks can receive orders if there's a master of ordnance in the command squad, the navy officer can drop bombardments or screw with reserve rolls, rough riders get 2w, T4, and furious charge, wyrdvane psykers gain mastery levels with more dudes and can take disciplines that primaris psykers can't, russes gain IWND, tech priests boost the IWND rolls of all russes in X", ratlings drop in points and get shred (or a shred order), hellounds and variants gain outflank/scout and are cheaper.
For those complaining about balance: nope. Not buying it. Skyhammer, decurion, aspect host, bikehammer, ravenwing etc say I give 0 hoots about your cries of cheese.
TL;DR
HQ -Master of ordnance allows orders to be given to chimera chassis artillery tanks (manticore, hydra, basilisk, medusa, colossus, wyvern, griffon, deathstrike) on ld 8
-Master of ordnance allows heavy weapons teams and artillery units (not tanks!) to reroll failed ld checks for orders received from his unit.
-Master of the fleet may choose to +1/-1 reserve rolls for self or enemy OR may call down a s9 AP3 shot with barrage and ordnance special rules (per current master of ordnance)
-Units within 6" of a lord commissar count the ld as 10 for all intents and purposes.
-The techpriest engineseer may chose to add +1 to the "It will not die" roll of all vehicles within 8" instead of firing one of his weapons or repairing a hull point. This bonus is cumulative with the bonuses from other techpriest engineseers. Add +1" to this radius for each servitor with power claw in the techpriest enginseer's unit.
-Tank commanders gain a fourth order: "Fire at will!" All leman russes in the tank commander's squadron may fire their hull and sponson mounted weapons in addition to any ordnance weapon the tank may have fired. Tanks that do not have an ordnance weapon gain the preferred enemy (X) special rule until the end of the turn, where X is the faction of the unit that the tank commander fires at.
-Commissars may be deployed with any unit chosen out of Codex: Imperial Guard
Troops -Heavy weapons squads are T4, 15 points
-During army construction, a player may choose to designate any number of platoons (0-6) as "armored fist" platoons. Infantry squads in this platoon may not combine to form a single unit, may not take any heavy weapons squads (though an infantry squad may choose to purchase a heavy weapons team), and all squads (command, infantry, and special weapons) in this platoon must purchase either a taurox or chimera transport. For platoons designated as "Armored Fist Platoons," a taurox may be purchased for 0 points or a chimera may be purchased for 15.
-Infantry squads and veteran squads may take hot shot volley guns for 10 points as a special weapons choice.
-Taurox transport vehicles cost 35 points
-Chimera vehicles cost 55 points, may replace its turret multilaser with a turret mounted auto cannon at +5 points
Elites -MT command squads gain the senior officer special rule. May only give orders to Tempestus Scions. Ld 8/9.
-Tempestus Scions cost 9 ppm, the sergeant of each squad may choose to exchange his CCW and hot shot las pistol for a hot shot lasgun for free. May include 2 special weapons for every 5 tempestus scions within a squad. Tempestus scions are ld 8/9.
-When arriving by deepstrike, militarum tempestus platoons make a single reserve roll for the entire platoon. If the test is successful, all units within the platoon deploy per the deep strike special rules.
-Ogryns cost 30 ppm, bullgryns cost 35 ppm, bruteshield/power maul upgrade is 5 ppm. These models gain the bulky special rule and lose the very bulky special rule.
-Ratling snipers gain the "shred" special rule
Fast Attack -Hellhounds cost 90 ppm, gain outflank special rule
-Banewolves cost 60 ppm, gain scout special rule
-Devil dogs cost 80 ppm, gain outflank special rule
-Rough riders adjust stats to T3(4)/W2, may purchase carapace armor for 2ppm, gain scout, outflank, and furious charge special rules.
Heavy Support -Leman Russ tanks all gain It Will Not Die special rule
Quintinus wrote: Leman Russes need a bigger fix than just Lumbering Behemoth, imo, but it's certainly a start.
First of all they need some way to target a different unit with their TURRET weapon. Such a damn simple fix and they could do it in 2nd edition which made them suh-weet but now they just suck.
Also I think there should be a Grav Cannon w/Amp Turret for Leman Russes. That would be a cool change, too bad it likely won't happen IRL since the kit is already made.
If they could fire at a different target with their Turret and had Lumbering Behemoth I'd say they would be fair at 140. Then make Demolishers 150.
Also, here's another idea: Lumbering Behemoth (or Ablative Armor) grants a 5+ save against all Glancing Hits due to the extremely primitive and hulking nature of the Leman Russ. This would remove all those issues with Haywire and (especially) Gauss.
Are you high? There's a reason that Ordnance weapons cause everything else to snap fire, and it's because Ordnance weapons are really bloody powerful. Practicaly the entire guard army is about spamming cheap high strength low ap weapons. And as for saves against hits, no. Av14 is tough enough as it is, you don't need to make them even closer to unkillable.
Selym wrote: I look away from Dakka for long enough to watch some Blackadder, and it goes mad.
To answer your points in order:
-A 4 HP Russ, I'm told, is an existing upgrade in IA1's Armoured Battle Group. It's not all that spammable, due to the high cost and limited availability of Tank Commanders. Russes have always had the problem of being hull'd to death, and 20 points isn't an unreasonable price to pay for some adamantium sheets to cover your tank's weaker areas. Especially when it can be brought back down with a 20 point Lascannon, or a 10 point Meltagun. Or a 5 point Meltabomb. Or any of those free Krak grenades MEQ's love so much.
-Russ tanks are not underpriced. Some of them are good as they are. Like the Eradicator or the Exterminator. Arguably the Punisher, too. But Battlecannon Russes and Demolisers are pretty much always ineffective for the cost. Demolishers have a crippling weakenss to everything - they are short-ranged, and will take until Turn 2-3 to hit something. They cannot fire any other guns, as the sponsons atm are a waste of points, they move 6" per turn, they become useless if anything scores a penetrating hit on them, as "Crew Shaken" removes their firepower for a turn, "Crew Stunned turns them into a piece of scenery for a turn, "Immobilized" makes them useless for the rest of the game, "Weapon Destroyed" has a 50/50 chance at removing the cannon, and "Explodes" explodes them. Dropping Demos by 20 points, LRBT's by 10 and adding Lumbering Behemoth solves 90% of the problems with Russes.
Russes also have a worrying tendency to be killed by/before T3 anyway.
-I take it you've never seen any in action, have you? Spotters in a CCS / PCS, I have an open mind on the subject. How about as a Regimental Adviser, or similar?
-As mentioned above, the IG power weapons work at a lower strength, lower initiative, lower durability and lower accuracy and (often) lower attack count than all other power weapons. Costing the same as everyone else is nowhere near fair.
-Salvo 2/4 with Str 3 Ap - makes Veterans capable of killing their points worth over 2-3 turns, against MEQ's. They won't survive 2-3 turns. 30", I can see why there may be contention over that, but here's the discussion over it.
-All of those weapons typically hit 50% or less of the time, and the first and last suggestions barely do anything when Av14 is around. And krak grenades are not free, they come as stock, but you still pay for them.
- Str 10 Ap 1 Large Blast weapons do not need to get cheaper.
-I take it you've never used any, have you?
-There's enough Ap3 spam already, you do not need to add to the codex creep by totally invalidating whole armies worth of troops.
-Contention over 30" range Salvo 2/4? I should bloody well think so.
Ether wrote: I think the list is looking at parts rather than the whole. What does the guard NEED to be better?
Valid Rough Riders. That's about it, really.
Ether wrote: IMO, not a lot. There are tons of great things in the book, not the least of which are orders. The problem is that the best thing in the book to receive those orders, tanks, can't. Major bummer dude.
They don't need orders. Getting TH and Ignores cover on weapons that are already very likely to penetrate, or flat out ignore the durability of everything in front of them is not needed.
Ether wrote: The problem that platoons face is that the awesome destructive power of the las gun is overlooked in favor of heavy weapons. Las guns are mean as hell, doubly so with misfortune or that power from biomancy. Orders make them even more destructive, mobile, and durable, but not all at once. A guardsman may not be great, but give him inspiring leaders and a despotic Commissar, and all of a sudden, that's a well spent set of points.
Speaking of lasguns, yes, they actually are powerful. FRFSRF basically doubles the power of any unit it is given to. 50 point unit? Don't worry, it's worth 100 points. 50 points of free stuff for no reason. IG are supposed to be cannon fodder.