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Well, PP probably sells to all distributors at the same price. The prices those distributors charge different retailers is less certain.

But yeah, the primary reason why online sales prices tend to be cheaper is that they tend to have a high sales volume to overhead cost ratio, so they need to charge less markup per item to be able to make a profit after those overhead costs.

TheAuldGrump wrote:Yes, I would rather spend my money on halflings riding giant chickens than buy a new warjack....

With age comes wisdom.

Lots of Mk3 excitement has been brewing locally. I've decided that I am going to start playing again, but I'll be reducing my factions down to 1 WM and 1 H. I don't (and won't) play often enough to justify having the factions I currently have (Cryx, Cygnar, Menoth, Khador, Circle, Skorne).

 KiloFiX wrote:
Remind me again, PP probably sells stuff to everyone at the same exact wholesale price - whether retail or online store right?

It's just that online has lower overhead so they can choose to discount more?

Lower overhead, and typically also higher volume - so they can afford to make less on more sales.

To add to the fun, unless PP built these terms into their sales agreement then it will be PP that is breaking the law.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
Remind me again, PP probably sells stuff to everyone at the same exact wholesale price - whether retail or online store right?

It's just that online has lower overhead so they can choose to discount more?

Lower overhead, and typically also higher volume - so they can afford to make less on more sales.

To add to the fun, unless PP built these terms into their sales agreement then it will be PP that is breaking the law.

The Auld Grump

It's built into their sales agreement.

Now that I think about it.. PP trying to set prices in a free market economy is probably illegal. Gas companies that try to set defacto prices have gotten into legal troubles in the past. We had to listen to a case study in one of my economics classes for my BS.

 MLaw wrote:
Now that I think about it.. PP trying to set prices in a free market economy is probably illegal. Gas companies that try to set defacto prices have gotten into legal troubles in the past. We had to listen to a case study in one of my economics classes for my BS.

Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.

Good point - and thanks for the reminder!

 Laughing Man wrote:
Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.

Hence the fights to get internet connections considered utilities.

As of 2007, "resale price maintenance" is sadly legal in the USA for most companies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance#United_States_law

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Only if you're a monopoly. Utilities engaging in price fixing is illegal because there's not an alternative for customers. Privateer does not hold a monopoly on its industry.

Hence the fights to get internet connections considered utilities.

Less that, as there's some competition between ISPs - Even if they're labeled utilities, there's no monopoly, so there's little price gouging (although you could make an argument for collusion). The main reason to declare them utilities is for reasons of net neutrality: If they're utilities, it's illegal to prioritize some customers over others - say, a service that guarantees you'll never experience a brown-out unless the rest of the city goes out first. Similarly, you wouldn't be able to create an internet fast lane or slow traffic to websites belonging to your rivals.

Mind, this is pretty far off topic.

This has been passed around as a reason why MM is now selling at 25% off. Supposedly someone emailed MM to ask for clarification on the 25% discount and got this reply

"Rain, we did change our pricing to only 10% off but Privateer Press still refused to remove our name from the blacklist. As a result we went back to our 25% off. Because their policy is very vague they seem to be randomly choosing people to put on the list. The problem is not with us but rather how Privateer Press is choosing to enforce it. My distributors are very upset over how this has been handled and they vow to keep selling to us anyway."

Interesting if true. PP would really have an axe to grind if they refused to remove them from the list no matter their discount.

Could also be Hanlon's Razor. An article I read criticized how PP does not define "services" nor how they could monitor retailers: "Privateer Press recognizes that the health and success of brick-and-mortar retailers is crucial to give players access to the worldwide community of players who enjoy the friendly competition, hobby experiences, and casual and competitive organized play for which Privateer Press is a recognized industry leader. Upon enacting this policy, Privateer will monitor the market for free riders and provide a confidential list to its distributors regarding which retailers are offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount while offering little or nothing in the way of services." So that explains the "vague" and "random" parts.

Another thought, though, is that since it's actually the distributors who are penalized ("Distributors who sell product to retailers that have been added to the free rider list will have their shipments, including new releases, delayed.") a distributor now has to choose between OLGS business, or delays in receiving product. Those distributors who choose not to have a delay are pretty much giving up their PP business from *all* the OLGS's to a competing distributor -- which risks leading to giving up *all* their OLGS business to this competition as well. So one possibility is that MM's distributor chooses to side with the OLGS's, resulting in delays but perhaps more OLGS business, while another distributor sides with the FLGS's and receives non-delayed PP product. You'll also note that, once a distributor decides to sell to one "free rider", he might as well sell to *all* the "free riders". So, if that first "free rider" abides by PP and goes off the list, the distributor will *still* be penalized with delays since he now also sells to other "free riders". http://privateerpress.com/press-releases/privateer-press-supports-brick-and-mortar-retailers-with-new-free-rider-policy

Say -- where'd that 10% discount come from, anyway? If product is delayed, that doesn't sound like, to me, that the product will be discounted less than had the distributor agreed not to sell to "free riders"? TIA!

Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.

MM buys from a distributor doesn't it. Alliance iirc.

Also, I've had LGS here buy directly from PP. The service was...let's say less than fantastic for Asian stores. And the minimum order qty needed was...more than they were willing to get

I was slightly excited for the release for mkiii and seeing about getting into Skorne more.....and now since PP seems to think it was a good fething idea to go down the path of GW and insult their customer base. might as well get rid of my Skorne and other Mercs I have.

Those WGF Germans and X-Wing releases are looking good now...especially some things for my Brotherhood army for Kings of War.

FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts

so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts

so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......

FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Interesting if true. PP would really have an axe to grind if they refused to remove them from the list no matter their discount.

If it's true - I certainly don't mind. Would much rather have affordable products even if it means I'd have to wait 2-3 months for new releases (which - I am so behind on everything anyway - is not really a penalty at all).

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts

so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......

FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.

No Fantasy Flight went exclusive with distributors that agreed to their terms first, then made their announcment. And FFG didn't create a black list. They created two catagories that they then had stores choose which catagory they wanted to be included in: Brick or Online. Brick catagory store have a higher discount.

Fantasy Flight was open with how their system worked and not vague.

PP just said they were putting discounters on a blacklist. then they said it was to protect brick and morter stores, but they didn't say they wouldn't put brick and morter store, just that they were blacklisting discounters. Nor did they say what size discount put you on the list. It could be that any discount puts you on the list, and anybody the catch discounting goes on the list.

This is illegal. Nintendo got busted for these practices 15 years ago, when they would delay shipments to retailers that sold their products at a discount. They even did this with retail chains and department stores.

If PP would define what discounts are acceptable, then woundn't seem as vindictive. But I suspect they don't want any discounts from anybody, I doen't matter if it is an online retailer or a brick and morter.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.

PP doen't like to sell directly to anybody but distributors, whenever my local store orders directly from them, they have to prove they can not get it from a distributor. Our PG had to sign off on it and acknowledge the store couldn't ge the items

Do you have any info on that Nintendo case? Because my Google-fu isn't finding anything on it.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Do you have any info on that Nintendo case? Because my Google-fu isn't finding anything on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html

 Digclaw wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
FFG has the same policies as PP in regard to blacklisting/blocking online stores (except the big names in the game like Amazon) from offering large discounts

so I guess it's the WFG Germans then.......

FFG has the same policies in that regard? I did not know, since I have been out for a while (save for just keeping up with my Netrunner data packs). Might make me slightly worry, but then again I tend to play X-wing and Netrunner since the price-point is cheap, easier to expand, and the main company seems to be butting heads with their customer base right now.

No Fantasy Flight went exclusive with distributors that agreed to their terms first, then made their announcment. And FFG didn't create a black list. They created two catagories that they then had stores choose which catagory they wanted to be included in: Brick or Online. Brick catagory store have a higher discount.

Fantasy Flight was open with how their system worked and not vague.

PP just said they were putting discounters on a blacklist. then they said it was to protect brick and morter stores, but they didn't say they wouldn't put brick and morter store, just that they were blacklisting discounters. Nor did they say what size discount put you on the list. It could be that any discount puts you on the list, and anybody the catch discounting goes on the list.

This is illegal. Nintendo got busted for these practices 15 years ago, when they would delay shipments to retailers that sold their products at a discount. They even did this with retail chains and department stores.

If PP would define what discounts are acceptable, then woundn't seem as vindictive. But I suspect they don't want any discounts from anybody, I doen't matter if it is an online retailer or a brick and morter.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Probably because stores can buy directly from PP. they don't actually NEED to go through a distributor. There are other gaming companies that allow you to do this as well. MM probably skipped the distributor because they get better prices from PP directly. I don't remember the price exactly, but it was something like 55% of retail if they buy from a distributor, and I THINK it's 40% of retail to buy from PP. Not positive of the exact price. But yeah, saves them a healthy chunk when buying directly from PP.

PP doen't like to sell directly to anybody but distributors, whenever my local store orders directly from them, they have to prove they can not get it from a distributor. Our PG had to sign off on it and acknowledge the store couldn't ge the items

Thank you! Price fixing is the term I was searching for.. college is a few more years back than I remember ;P

Yeah when PP first made the announcment, I was like WHY?

I normally support PP but this just sounded too much like the stuff Nintendo used to pull.

I remember hearing about the price fixing as a kid, they would send operatives to stores to catch low prices that weren't even advertised. Nowadays many companies will make deals with retailers that they won't advertise lower prices, but Nintendo would come down and any low price.

 Digclaw wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Do you have any info on that Nintendo case? Because my Google-fu isn't finding anything on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html

Ah, that explains it, I was only looking back around 2000. 1991 is 25 years ago now.

However, the case doesn't really apply here. At the time, Nintendo DID have a monopoly (or the FTC was willing to argue it did), controlling 80% of the market. Privateer has no such monopoly, and Leegin v. PSKS (2007) ruled price maintenance a legal practice anyway.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Do you have any info on that Nintendo case? Because my Google-fu isn't finding anything on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html

Ah, that explains it, I was only looking back around 2000. 1991 is 25 years ago now.

However, the case doesn't really apply here. At the time, Nintendo DID have a monopoly (or the FTC was willing to argue it did), controlling 80% of the market. Privateer has no such monopoly, and Leegin v. PSKS (2007) ruled price maintenance a legal practice anyway.

The monopoly thing is pretty arguable. In the 90s there were the Sega systems, Turbografix 16, Neo Geo, Atari..kinda.. That said, the price maintenance case is after the years I had college level economics so I'm ill-informed as to the specifics of what qualifies as price maintenance. Perhaps that's the same thing that allows Apple to dictate their costs.

Does anyone know if MM is actually taking this to court or if any sorts of talks have even been broached? I know the legal aspect isn't the most glamorous but these last few years it seems to have been just as important as the fun side.. same for logistics strangely.

I'd be highly surprised in MM was 'taking this to court' - just as I'd be highly surprised if there was anything to actually take to court!

Even a 100% dead certain win would probably be a financial disaster,

From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."

Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.

fwiw: MM DotD: Forces of Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss (Hardcover) : $5
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/pip1054.html