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They could have at least waited until all the restic garbage in their line had been updated. Tough to swallow paying anywhere near retail for some of that stuff.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
Seems like a strange reason. A lot of games coming out don't require the sort of repeat purchases that Games Workshop games require. I've seen the game die out because of the toxic community it attracts (my FLGS owner flat out said the game attracts the 'worst of the worst' when I was looking for a game to get into when I was getting disinterested in 40k), but not because the game doesn't require repeat purchases.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
Seems like a strange reason. A lot of games coming out don't require the sort of repeat purchases that Games Workshop games require. I've seen the game die out because of the toxic community it attracts (my FLGS owner flat out said the game attracts the 'worst of the worst' when I was looking for a game to get into when I was getting disinterested in 40k), but not because the game doesn't require repeat purchases.
That is just what i heard.
Let me put it this way, no one I knew ever bought the khador jack kit more than once.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
That might be helping drive the success of X-Wing, since most SKUs are $15.
Honestly the fact PP are following the other wargame industry lemmings off the cliff in their doomed collective attempt to pretend this is still the 90's is less surprising to me than the tone of the announcement.
I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public.
This is Kirby-esque rhetoric, right up there with pig law, IP moats, and otiose nichery. Someone at PP needs a slap.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Calling it the 'Free Rider' policy is itself an incredibly poor business move.
It deliberately sets up a narrative that some customers are worth less than others. They think they are speaking about the retailers of course, but they are also speaking about the people who buy from them.
Only buy from online stores? You are now associated with freeloading. Its a connection people will automatically make about themselves, and it is going to annoy them. A lot.
You can take steps to shift sales to B&M stores without being confrontational, this is about the worst way possible to try it (even if its ultimately doomed to fail anyway).
Whoever wrote that shouldn't be in the job they are in.
The games thrives on actual stores or clubs for gaming environments. When it gets too expensive to run product in the FLGS, it will simply stop offering the product. When PressGangers are active in the local clubs all is well, but if there is none the game is likely to dry out.
In Copenhagen a good store closed some years ago because a good handful played there while buying PP and GW products online with discount. Another big FLGS discontinued PP, likely because the sale was too low, while 40K is seeing a lot of activity in Cph within the last couple of years, in good part due to the FLGS nursing the game.
Personally speaking, if it wasn't for this activity more of my hobby budget would go to CMoNs KS model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 08:00:09
Local stores over here stopped stocking new PP stuff. They can't even seem to sell the stuff they have in store atm, even with a buy 2 get 1 item free deal.
I don't think this policy will help them much though.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly the fact PP are following the other wargame industry lemmings off the cliff in their doomed collective attempt to pretend this is still the 90's is less surprising to me than the tone of the announcement.
I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public.
This is Kirby-esque rhetoric, right up there with pig law, IP moats, and otiose nichery. Someone at PP needs a slap.
Indeed. Horrible PR to use that kind of language.
Are we sure it's not a elaborate Aprils fool joke that somehow got published too early?
So what I'm reading is this: Game company's and game stores need to make X and Y in dollars to survive.
But you are all entitled to buy said products at price A, because you can't afford or don't think the products are worth price X/Y.
So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
It's not that long ago that people said the same kind of thing about Privateer Press. The times, they are a-changing.
General Hobbs wrote: So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
What cannot survive, doesn't necessarily deserve to. Wait a few decades and domestic 3d printing might get to the point we can get passable gaming miniatures printed in the comfort of our own homes. The old business model might die, but you're bonkers if you don't think that future ones won't arise. Perhaps entrepreneurs of tomorrow will sell 3D patterns for home crafting. It is, as always, vitally important to separate what's good for the hobby from what's good for the companies involved. The fortunes of wargaming are not tied to the lot of any one commercial entity.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/31 07:24:39
So if they know who the 'offending' people are, then just offer discounts on your stuff, or some other sort of bonus to the people who are doing what you want.
Also, delaying stuff to big distributors is bad business. If they aren't able to sell your stuff to stores because you delayed it, they just won't buy it any more. And those evil online retailers will just go to one of your 'approved' distributors, to get things in a more timely manner. And then the cycle begins again.
It's not like these online retailers are scalpers who buy out an item, then sell it back to the consumers at an inflated cost. They are taking a loss on the item because the retail price is already too high for manyt players. People really want the item, so they purchase it for as cheap as they can get.
I really don't understand the idea that you would want to hurt, or hinder anything to do with people purchasing your products. I assume that this is why you started a company in the first place, to sell things, and keep people excited in those things.
I really like Warmachine and hordes, they are fun games, with nice miniatures. But if you'd like to make it more difficult, or more expensive for me to purchase your items, I may have to stop buying them.
So what I'm reading is this: Game company's and game stores need to make X and Y in dollars to survive.
But you are all entitled to buy said products at price A, because you can't afford or don't think the products are worth price X/Y.
So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
As I dont play PP games this purely theoretical, but many people (like my gaming group) dont play in stores. We play at home or rent our own locations, so dont come ask us to subsidize your gamings space, thats mighty greedy of you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 07:40:06
This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
General Hobbs wrote: So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
What happens is that this doesn't happen. As others have said, they play games at private residences. At least for boardgames, if all the FLGS's dried up, we'd still be playing at people's houses and buying from the OLGS. Thanks to Magic, FLGS's have *not* dried up, though, as someone who plays boardgames through Meetups, I don't know what fraction of FLGS's support either gaming, or miniatures wargaming in particular, in the first place. In the Silicon Valley, real estate prices are high, and no amount of price adjustments are going to save them when the rents go up even further. Despite PP (and Asmodee's) decisions, Mantic (and CMON) certainly don't think the market for miniature wargaming and boadgames is on the decline (although maybe we're in a glut that some companies see and we don't), so *somebody's* seeing a demand and are there to satisfy it.
@Steve: I didn't understand your post. I've always thought online stores had stock, don't know how they're huge credit risks, and don't grow sales. As an alpha boardgamer, I don't need the OLGS to grow sales, since that's done by BoardGameGeek and word-of-mouth gaming advocacy ("Hey, anyone want to play this new game?").
Steve steveson wrote: This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
Online stores hold zero stock? Are you saying MM or DGI hold no stock at all then?
Also, I have no idea who's in charge of PP's asian sales, but there's a huge issue with their asian coverage. I've had both Malaysian and Singaporean storekeepers complain/explain to me why my pre-order for PP stuff is taking so long and it basically boils down to their distributor in asia is crap.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/
Schmapdi wrote: They're not "axeing" anybody - reading the FAQ - it honestly just strikes me as a PR campaign to say "we love FLGS."
I mean - your store gets put on a secret list, that no one but PP can see, and your shipments get delayed. These things seem hard to prove.
And until it affects MM (which I doubt it will) I'm not too concerned.
I don't know man, the OP used ALL CAPS. That makes him seem pretty credible and unbiased to me.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
and with even more hidden metrics so nobody's actually going to be able to tell if you're acting on your words for a good long time.
I wonder how Asmodees (remember they now have FFG and Xwing/Armada in their stable) version will work as it's meant to be coming in tomorrow (April) are the major online discounter like MM/Amazon/ebay sellers actually going to be hit or even dropped, I doubt it
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit that 'parasitic'-thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 09:40:43
There are quite some deep-discounters that only order stock when you order from them. In the end they will kill the market when left unchecked.
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit the 'parasitic'-dogma thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
Guess which shops would be the first to try to sue PP over such a thing...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 09:42:20
André Winter L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio
Samurai_Eduh wrote: "Bbbut....muh Privateer Press would never do that! GW is just an evil corporation who is trying to screw over the customers!"
I've been waiting for this day. Where is your god now? Maybe now, finally, we can stop hearing about how PP can do no wrong. The best part is, PP didn't even wait until they went public to pull this.
The thing is, I can't really see how it helps PP to do this. GW you can call greedy scumbags for killing online sales because they're obviously trying to divert sales to their own channels where they make a larger profit on each sale.
Eldarain wrote: What bizarro wargaming world have I stepped into where GW is releasing discount boxsets and engaging with the community again and PP are exerting draconian measures from their Iron Tower.
Either the beginning of a GW Renaissance or the Dark Ages for all. I hope we get lucky, but hope is the first step on the path to disappointment. Also this is one more news I can shove in peoples face when they come at me with that holier than thou attitude they throw at me for playing GW and them playing privateer press as if that makes them a friggen saint.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: There are quite some deep-discounters that only order stock when you order from them. In the end they will kill the market when left unchecked.
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit the 'parasitic'-dogma thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
Guess which shops would be the first to try to sue PP over such a thing...
So you say shops would be able to sue PP for offering bonus products to certain physical shops, but not for outright refusing to do business with certain online-shops?
I'd guess that either both or none of those practices would be disallowed, but if only one of them would be, It seems like it's probably the practice that PP are about to instate now.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/03/31 10:06:26
Steve steveson wrote: This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertise it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
Online stores hold zero stock? Are you saying MM or DGI hold no stock at all then?
Not all of them, but many don't. If you buy from somewhere that does not ship within 24 hours the chances are that is because they don't hold any, or very much, stock.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
5000pts 
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