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Was listening to my favorite podcast, "preferred enemies" and in their last episode they were handling more rules questions.
One of which was the Twin-linked and Gets Hot rule.

The idea is that the first roll, if re-rolled, is negated and a re-roll result of '1' is a Gets Hot result. They based this on BRB rules for Re-Rolls.

I have some beef with this based on the more specific rules in the Gets Hot and Re-rolls portion of the BRB Gets Hot definition:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for a weapon that do not roll To Hit."

The emphasis on the word "also" is mine.
RAW there are two scenarios here.

Scenario 1:
Ravenwing Black Knight shoots the twin-linked plasma talon;
Roll To Hit is a '1'.
This is a miss and can be re-rolled via Twin Linked rule.
Re-roll is a '1'
This is a miss and this result is "also a 1" and thus suffers a Gets Hot result.

Scenario 2:
Ravenwing Black Knight shoots the twin-linked plasma talon;
Roll To Hit is a '2'.
This is a miss and can be re-rolled via Twin Linked rule.
Re-roll is a '1'
This is still a miss, but this roll was not "also a 1" and thus no Gets Hot result.

Would other disagree that Scenario two should still result in a Wound via Gets Hot result?

I've never run into or heard of people playing it in any way other than Scenario 1, because the context of the rule you quoted is specifically in regards to a weapon suffering 'Gets Hot!' and not from shooting at some other time.

 Bookwrack wrote:
I've never run into or heard of people playing it in any way other than Scenario 1, because the context of the rule you quoted is specifically in regards to a weapon suffering 'Gets Hot!' and not from shooting at some other time.

Forgive me, I'm a bit slow sometimes.
Can you clarify in that you would agree or disagree that Scenario 2 would not result in a Wound?

 Brillow80 wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
I've never run into or heard of people playing it in any way other than Scenario 1, because the context of the rule you quoted is specifically in regards to a weapon suffering 'Gets Hot!' and not from shooting at some other time.

Forgive me, I'm a bit slow sometimes.
Can you clarify in that you would agree or disagree that Scenario 2 would not result in a Wound?

From the bolded section, emphasised with red:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for a weapon that do not roll To Hit."

So, the Wound is ONLY suffered if the re-roll is ALSO a 1. So, you have to roll two 1s to suffer the Wound.

I've not noticed this before. i'm inclined to agree

That's a very interesting interpretation. Seems like it works to me.

RAW seems to say exactly that, though I doubt anyone plays it that way.
I'm amazed that people still find stuff like this in the rules, just shows how bad GW's rule writing really is.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
RAW seems to say exactly that, though I doubt anyone plays it that way.
I'm amazed that people still find stuff like this in the rules, just shows how bad GW's rule writing really is.

I do, as well as everyone at my FLGS, and obviously the OP does. I don't doubt that somewhere others play it this way just as I don't doubt that somewhere people play where only the re-roll matters.

RAW in this case is often misinterpreted as all encompassing. It is not.

The gets hot and rerolls rule is only talking about an initial gets hot result; that is why it says "also a 1". Also a 1 means that the first roll was a 1; rerolls are a do-over to the whole roll treated exactly like the original roll with all of the original roll's rules in effect.

Scenario 1 is the context of the rule. Scenario 2 would result in a gets hot because it is a to-hit roll of 1(the trigger for the result).

This is also not a new concept; it has been this way since 3rd

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
RAW in this case is often misinterpreted as all encompassing. It is not.

The gets hot and rerolls rule is only talking about an initial gets hot result; that is why it says "also a 1". Also a 1 means that the first roll was a 1; rerolls are a do-over to the whole roll treated exactly like the original roll with all of the original roll's rules in effect.

Scenario 1 is the context of the rule. Scenario 2 would result in a gets hot because it is a to-hit roll of 1(the trigger for the result).

This is also not a new concept; it has been this way since 3rd

Has the wording on the rule chance since 3rd edition? Not like GW to alter rules slightly and mess things up via inclusion or exclusion of verbiage.

I do see your logic.
You interpret the rule to say " Ignore the original To Hit of '1' for purposes of Gets Hot if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit"

I feel rule is worded too specifically to take this stance. The rule explicitly states when a wound is suffered and that is only when the re-roll is also '1'

In fact, The rule also allows weapons that do not roll To Hit to re-roll a Gets Hot result of 1. Twin-linked on these types of weapons do not force a player re-roll the Gets Hot test if you wish to re-roll scatter for example. In this case only a double '1' result would generate a Wound. It is not likely they would rule differently on these weapons types.

The specific wording you are speaking of is only the word also; which again is/can be contextual.

In fact the bit about not having to re-roll scatter when re-rolling the gets hot result adds more to the context of the rule only applying to the initial gets hot result.

You have 2(3-4) sets of rules involved in the situation:
1) gets hot, telling you any roll to hit of a 1 is a result that wounds/glances.
2) rerolls, telling you that when a reroll occurs the first roll doesn't count.

I will get to 3 and 4 in a moment, but just these 2 rules are sort of in conflict, but sort of not. They are both special rules so you need to decide which one takes priority; the "gets hot and rerolls" comes in to explain that(3). Also rerolls rule does not tell you that the first roll doesn't count for anything, just that the second roll does count, so we need additional rules in place for an effect that would occur on a specific roll that gets rerolled(this is the sort of not)

As far as the weapons that do not roll to hit and gets hot and rerolls go; if the initial gets hot test is a 1, no shot is even fired, but the gets hot and rerolls is telling you that you can reroll the test to actually fir but that does not use up your ability to reroll scatter(or wounds on template weapons): this is #4.

Without gets hot and rerolls you could roll a 1 to hit, then reroll resulting in a hit, that to-hit roll counts as a hit but you still suffer the wound(and, of course, without the rule blast/templates would not fire just cause the wound.

Anytime you have a rule that references another rule you have to look at both rules to understand it.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1; it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for a weapon that do not roll To Hit."

Scenario two will never be reached, because Get's Hot is only rolls of 1 and a roll of a 2 will not activate Get's Hot.

Get's Hot works in this context because it already assumes you rolled a 1 to even start applying the also part.

Also =/= Either

Therefore, I'm inclined to agree with Scenario 2, and that the RAW is you need to roll double 1's to suffer Gets Hot. That said, I believe the intent is to be that if the "final roll" is a 1, then it's a Get Hot roll.

I find it very difficult to swallow that twin-linked blast weapons only ever Gets-Hot on Double '1's (1/36 chance) yet twin-linked To Hit weapons can Gets Hot on additional combinations (based on BS,snap shooting, etc.)

It makes twin linked Gets Hot weapons more of a liability.

I don't want to agree with this but it does seem to be that RAW you need "double 1s" to gets hot with twin linked. Doesn't seem correct with RAI given how the Re-roll rule states you take the result of the reroll even if its worse than the original roll but the wording on the Gets Hot re-rolls is more specific and thus the governing rule.

 Brillow80 wrote:
I find it very difficult to swallow that twin-linked blast weapons only ever Gets-Hot on Double '1's (1/36 chance) yet twin-linked To Hit weapons can Gets Hot on additional combinations (based on BS,snap shooting, etc.)

It makes twin linked Gets Hot weapons more of a liability.

All Gets Hot TL weapons only cause a wound on a double 1. I don't get your additional combinations part. Snap Shots doesn't change Gets Hot, nor any BS rule.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
I find it very difficult to swallow that twin-linked blast weapons only ever Gets-Hot on Double '1's (1/36 chance) yet twin-linked To Hit weapons can Gets Hot on additional combinations (based on BS,snap shooting, etc.)

It makes twin linked Gets Hot weapons more of a liability.

All Gets Hot TL weapons only suffer a wound/glance in a double 1. I don't get your additional combinations part. Snap Shots doesn't change Gets Hot, nor any BS rule.

That's the discussion; if a non-'1' initial To Hit role followed by a To Hit re-roll of '1' will still result in a Gets Hot wound result.

If it does then any non-'1' roll that is re-rolled could result in a Gets Hot.

For example, A jinked Black Knight shooting a twin-linked plasma talon will miss on all but 6. A result of 1-5 will be re-rolled possibly resulting in a '1' on the re-roll.

If only double '1' would result in a Gets Hot, then the 2-5 results could have been discounted for Gets Hot on the re-roll.
If any re-roll in a '1' triggers a Gets Hot you could not discount the initial 2-5 result and thus all the misses could still trigger Gets Hot on the re-roll.

 Brillow80 wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
I find it very difficult to swallow that twin-linked blast weapons only ever Gets-Hot on Double '1's (1/36 chance) yet twin-linked To Hit weapons can Gets Hot on additional combinations (based on BS,snap shooting, etc.)

It makes twin linked Gets Hot weapons more of a liability.

All Gets Hot TL weapons only suffer a wound/glance in a double 1. I don't get your additional combinations part. Snap Shots doesn't change Gets Hot, nor any BS rule.

That's the discussion; if a non-'1' initial To Hit role followed by a To Hit re-roll of '1' will still result in a Gets Hot wound result.

If it does then any non-'1' roll that is re-rolled could result in a Gets Hot.

For example, A jinked Black Knight shooting a twin-linked plasma talon will miss on all but 6. A result of 1-5 will be re-rolled possibly resulting in a '1' on the re-roll.

If only double '1' would result in a Gets Hot, then the 2-5 results could have been discounted for Gets Hot on the re-roll.
If any re-roll in a '1' triggers a Gets Hot you could not discount the initial 2-5 result and thus all the misses could still trigger Gets Hot on the re-roll.

Ah, get it. hum... here we always did this: if the final result is a 1, you get fried.

The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first...
-Re-rolling

I believe that is where the problem lies, as we are informed the second roll counts as the result, especially in situations where it would clearly be worse then the first. The inclusion of the word 'also' within the Get Hot Rule may have been an attempt to change the default state, but it was a extremely poor one given how many people still use said default state. Just highlight it as a cautionary tale as to why a Rule writer needs to take time to explain an exception and not expect a single common, and easily overlooked, word to be enough to get the point across.

Personally, I stay away from Get Hot weapons due to my luck but if my opponent had one and a re-roll I wouldn't trigger it on a 2 roll, 1 re-roll.

It needs the be snake eyes as the rules for Gets Hot specifically tells us.

I have always played it for my Black Knights as twin-linked,
Example I roll a 2, I reroll for my miss, and get a 1, I gave myself a gets-hot result.

The rules for re-rolls in general states something along the lines that you simply pretend the first roll never happened. The bit in the Gets Hot! rule that says "a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1" is simply restating and reinforcing this; i.e. if you roll a 1 to hit then re-roll, the original 1 does not cause a Wound.

So, assuming BS3 and a twin-linked plasma gun,
1st roll = 1, re-roll = 5 -> shot hits.
1st roll = 1, re-roll = 2 -> shot misses.
1st roll = 2, re-roll = 1 -> shot misses, firer takes a Wound
1st roll = 1, re-roll = 1 -> shot misses, firer takes a Wound

That's not what the rules tell us.

...

From 'Gets Hot and Weapons that do not Roll To Hit' (emphasis added):

For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound...

Now that we've established that GW has used the term 'Gets Hot' as what happens when the Gets Hot rule is triggered, I put forth that 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' is dealing with when the Gets Hot rule is triggered and has a re-roll instead of just when the Gets Hot rule is present.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Gets Hot and Weapons that do not Roll To Hit' (emphasis added):

For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound...

Now that we've established that GW has used the term 'Gets Hot' as what happens when the Gets Hot rule is triggered, I put forth that 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' is dealing with when the Gets Hot rule is triggered and has a re-roll instead of just when the Gets Hot rule is present.

In the case of scenario 2, the Get Hot result is triggered when the re-roll is a '1'. RAW the Gets Hot and Re-Rolls section then states a Wound is only suffered is the re-roll is also a '1', which it was not.

No. If the use of 'Gets Hot' is the triggering of the Gets Hot rule then the only time you would use the 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' section of the rules is if the initial roll was a 1. The rule has no effect if the initial roll was anything other than a 1 and is not referenced at all.

 Ghaz wrote:
No. If the use of 'Gets Hot' is the triggering of the Gets Hot rule then the only time you would use the 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' section of the rules is if the initial roll was a 1. The rule has no effect if the initial roll was anything other than a 1 and is not referenced at all.

Partially incorrect. The rule does grant additional permission to re-roll Gets Hot results of '1' for weapons that do not roll To Hit.

However, In the case of weapons that roll To Hit, The 'Gets Hot and Re-rolls' section of the Gets Hot rule only requires a qualification that the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit, not that an initial To Hit of '1' has occurred.

In this example the model's weapon has twin linked, so yes, is has the ability to re-roll its to Hit. Therefore, the Re-rolls section of the Gets Hot rule is always in effect when determining when a Wound is suffered and the 'triggering' to validate still occurs on the re-roll of '1'.

Someone has still yet explained the oddity in the case of twin-linked blast weapons, which only double '1' will EVER result in a wound on Gets Hot (it would be impossible to do so otherwise) but 'To Hit' weapons, according to some, only ever consider the re-roll.

Again, we have two definitions of Gets Hot thanks to the passage I quoted in my first post. One is the rule, the other is the status after the rule is triggered. Any time we see the words 'Gets Hot', it can refer to either of those two definitions. Therefore 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' can validly be read in either of these two ways:

1.) The rule Gets Hot and Re-Rolls

2.) A weapon which has triggered the Gets Hot rule (i.e. the weapon Gets Hot) and Re-Rolls

Personally, definition #2 is the one that I believe makes the most sense in this instance and would only come into play if the first roll was a 1. It would not come into play if the roll was anything else because the weapon never 'Gets Hot'.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, we have two definitions of Gets Hot thanks to the passage I quoted in my first post. One is the rule, the other is the status after the rule is triggered. Any time we see the words 'Gets Hot', it can refer to either of those two definitions. Therefore 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' can validly be read in either of these two ways:

1.) The rule Gets Hot and Re-Rolls

2.) A weapon which has triggered the Gets Hot rule (i.e. the weapon Gets Hot) and Re-Rolls

Personally, definition #2 is the one that I believe makes the most sense in this instance and would only come into play if the first roll was a 1. It would not come into play if the roll was anything else because the weapon never 'Gets Hot'.

I agree, the verbiage Gets Hot has been used as both a rule and status. I also agree one could read 'Gets Hot and Re-Rolls' as one of the two definitions you listed: rule or status. However, you have to take into account the context of the entire rule.

The precedent here is the first sub-section of the Gets Hot rule: 'Gets Hot and weapons that do not roll To Hit"

This sub section is the instruction for how to apply the Gets Hot rule to weapons that do not roll To Hit. In this case, to me, it is obvious that the sub-section title is referencing the rule, not the status.
If we apply consistency, then the next sub-section to the Gets Hot rule is, again, instructions on applying the Gets Hot (rule) and Re-rolls.