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Here is one that didn't come up in my recent game, but I never bothered to ask.

Breacher squads, and I'm sure some other Tau units as well, have variable Range weapons. Do these fall under the rules for Multiple Weapon Profiles? Or do the Tau have their own shenanigans for these as well?

I know they get to pick, but the reason I'm asking is, depending on which one the do pick, will they only kill models up to that profiles range?

 Akar wrote:
Here is one that didn't come up in my recent game, but I never bothered to ask.

Breacher squads, and I'm sure some other Tau units as well, have variable Range weapons. Do these fall under the rules for Multiple Weapon Profiles? Or do the Tau have their own shenanigans for these as well?

I know they get to pick, but the reason I'm asking is, depending on which one the do pick, will they only kill models up to that profiles range?

No, they follow the normal rules for allocating wounds in the shooting phase and can apply wounds up to the weapon's maximum range of 15".

Out of Range wrote:Note that, when determining if a model is out of range, always use the firing weapon's maximum range

The Pulse Blast weapons are honestly not very well written, especially with the line "If it is not clear which of the profiles to use, the controlling player can choose."

There is an implied [from the profiles under question[; this is obvious when you retain the context of "it"

So if I understand correctly:

If one model is in the shortest range, then the Tau player gets to use the best available profile, and still kill out to the range of the weakest profile? (Sorry, don't know what the specifics of the profile are.)

Say that you're shooting a a 10 man unit where half are in the shortest range and half are in the longest range. You'll make a single shooting attack and resolve the shots with half at the S/AP of the short range and half at the S/AP of the medium range.

It's almost exactly like trying to figure out how many shots you get with Bolters when half of your Marines are within 12" and the other half are a little farther. The Marines within 12" get two shots and the farther ones get one shot. The Breachers within 5" get S6/AP3 shots, the ones that are 5"-10" get whatever the medium range S/AP is. If one of the target models is right at 5" and you're not sure which to pick, the shooting player gets to pick and will almost always pick the better S6/AP3.

As above.

Each model has a range and profile to use at that range. You need to work out the number of models that are in each range, and resolve those attacks with the profile you work out. Rinse and repeat for the rest.

 Kriswall wrote:
Say that you're shooting a a 10 man unit where half are in the shortest range and half are in the longest range. You'll make a single shooting attack and resolve the shots with half at the S/AP of the short range and half at the S/AP of the medium range.

It's almost exactly like trying to figure out how many shots you get with Bolters when half of your Marines are within 12" and the other half are a little farther. The Marines within 12" get two shots and the farther ones get one shot. The Breachers within 5" get S6/AP3 shots, the ones that are 5"-10" get whatever the medium range S/AP is. If one of the target models is right at 5" and you're not sure which to pick, the shooting player gets to pick and will almost always pick the better S6/AP3.

Thank you Kriswall. This is exactly how I thought firing the unit worked, and have no issue with how any of this works. It's not what I was asking about and I'll try to clarify. It's casualty removal that I'm concerned about.

Normally, we're supposed to resolve different weapon groups before moving on to the next. So the Marine example above covers Bolters, but regardless of which mode is used, the S/AP do not change. Throw a Meltagun in there and I hope you'll see what I'm getting at.

The Pulse gun they have gives us a different take because it is the same weapon firing, but with different profiles. So taking from your Tau example, lets assume that there are 5 Breachers within range of 3 of the Marines. Do we resolve those 5 Breachers separately, because of the different profile, which means that only the 3 marines in range will die? This is providing they all choose that profile. Or do they get the benefit of range if the other Breachers choose the other profile, because the same weapon (not profile) is being used?

All the weapons are the same. You then split out to different rules within the wound pool so different S and AP are catered for.

So you determine range for all, fire all, then resolve each seperately with a max range of 15"

I would say that as long as the breachers are within range of at least 1 model of an enemy unit, all of that unit are eligible to be removed as a casualty.

Out of Range:
If none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target
unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it. Note that, when determining if a
model is out of range, always use the firing weapon’s maximum range, even if it was a
Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon that was shooting at half range (it can be imagined that whilst
these weapons sacrificed accuracy or mobility to gain extra shots, their shots still travel
their full range and have luckily hit another enemy). If there are no models in the
target unit that are in range, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

If they haven't changed from WD to Codex, those blasters are all one weapon, and not multiple profiles like a Missile Launcher has, but more like a Meltagun, Sniper Rifle, or similar.

Range determines Str and AP, but aside from that, it is all the same weapon, and there is a maximum range for the weapon itself.

All three ranges would have to be treated as different sections of a Wound Pool, much like Rending Wounds would for a Sniper Rifle, but that is as complicated as it gets.

There are 3 separate profiles in the codex proper(and the rules specify they are separate profiles based on the range)

I think Kel nailed it where I'm having a conflict, which I didn't see the issue with how Kriswall listed his scenario.

BRB p30 says we're to treat different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons. So as far as the Rules are concerned, we'd have to treat the different profiles, and resolve them individually? So the 5" range would roll hit/wound and only be able to kill anything in 5"? Then we'd move on to the models choosing the 2nd fire mode, and resolve those? Then the third if any had decided to use that method?

So I guess what I really want to know, is if the Tau Entry for these weapons specifically states that they all fire at the same time? I'm not a Tau player, nor do I have the Dex, and I'm not going to be shelling out for an army I never intend to build/play.

While it's possible for an entire unit could get within 5" of a single model from the unit they're shooting and use the AP3 Profile, I find it hard to believe that as long as one model chooses the 15", then they can kill everything out to 15" with the AP3. I find it harder to believe that non-Tau players would be okay with this for very long, and I haven't seen this pop up yet.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There are 3 separate profiles in the codex proper(and the rules specify they are separate profiles based on the range)

Yet they're the same weapon, so gore at the same time

You then split up the wound pool by special rules, strength etc.

 Akar wrote:
I think Kel nailed it where I'm having a conflict, which I didn't see the issue with how Kriswall listed his scenario.

BRB p30 says we're to treat different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons. So as far as the Rules are concerned, we'd have to treat the different profiles, and resolve them individually? So the 5" range would roll hit/wound and only be able to kill anything in 5"? Then we'd move on to the models choosing the 2nd fire mode, and resolve those? Then the third if any had decided to use that method?

But they aren't different modes or ammo types, they are different stats based on range, a slightly different concept. it's not like one can choose which mode one is in.

HIWPI : resolve shots by the number of marines within that range. When they are all dead, switch to the next weapon profile. Repeat.

Example: 3 tac marines are within 5" of the breachers. Resolve 3 shots at str6 ap3. One lives due to cover/ invulnerable. Resolve shots 1 at a time until he dies. Then switch to the next profile and continue firing out to the max range of the weapon with your remaining shots.

It's not the same as rapid fire, because there is different strength and ap values. Just like resolving meltas while they are in range, and then firing bolters. The player gets to shoot melta's until they are out of range.

Could totally be wrong. That's just HIWPI.

BRB p.30
'First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. ... All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that Weapon.'

This is where the ability to use all the profiles sits, and admittedly, the Tau are the first one to bring this whole thing to my attention. The Tau player is merely picking 'Pulse Blaster' as the weapon, and fulfilling this requirement of the rule.

Now that I've had a look at the Pulse Blaster rule.

Pulse Blaster, Codex:TE
'A shot from a Pulse Blaster has a different profile depending on how far the target unit is from the firer. If it is not clear which of the profiles to use, the controlling player can use.'

BRB p41
''Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. ... Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.'

BRB p.30
'If a weapon can fire in more than one mode, or can fire more than one type of ammo, select a weapon mode/ammo type - treat weapons firing different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons.'

Do Pulse Blasters have different profiles? Yes, it's mentioned 2x in addition to having 3 separate lines in it's profile, as defined by the BRB.
Do Pulse Blasters have have fire modes/ammo types? Yes, they have a separate line for each profile in their entry. So do count has having different Fire Modes / Ammo types as defined by the BRB rule.

Tau Player breakdown:
1) Select Weapon. Selects 'Pulse Blaster' (BRB)
2) Measure range, select applicable Profile(s) (Pulse Blaster & BRB)
3) Treat selected Profile as different named weapon. (BRB)
4) Complete normal steps of shooting and resolve the attack for that weapons profile. (Several BRB)
5) Resolve next 'named weapon' which would still be 'Pulse Blaster' since we're still on the selected weapon.

CONFLICT!!

BRB p.30
'... The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. ...'

Since one profile of 'Pulse Blaster' has been shot with during this phase, can he still use the other Fire Modes/Ammo Types?

Yes.
1) They are treated as different named 'Pulse Blasters', so he hasn't fired the unused profiles yet, which are different named 'Pulse Blaster'
2) He technically hasn't finished firing 'Pulse Blaster' until he picks an actual weapon with a different name.

At this point I've now seen the argument boil down to 'Do all models in the unit have to choose the same profile' or 'Can a Tau player choose one profile of Pulse Blaster, switch to use the Missile turret, then come back to a different profile of Pulse Blaster?'. These are either stupid, pointless, or TFG moves and really off topic, so I'm done here. These aren't things that I need answered.

NOTE: I'm not sure if this is how Kel feels, and maybe he'll point out the flaws in this application, but so far I feel it's on point.

Charistoph wrote:

 Akar wrote:
I think Kel nailed it where I'm having a conflict, which I didn't see the issue with how Kriswall listed his scenario.

BRB p30 says we're to treat different modes/ammo types as differently named weapons. So as far as the Rules are concerned, we'd have to treat the different profiles, and resolve them individually? So the 5" range would roll hit/wound and only be able to kill anything in 5"? Then we'd move on to the models choosing the 2nd fire mode, and resolve those? Then the third if any had decided to use that method?

But they aren't different modes or ammo types, they are different stats based on range, a slightly different concept. it's not like one can choose which mode one is in.

Modes and ammo types are not defined within the rules. Even the missile launcher rules in the brb just tells you to choose which missile to use each turn; it all falls under "multiple profiles"

You have 3 profiles for the pulse shotties
: short, medium, and long range: when you select breachers as the firing unit you then select the blaster and the profile(like missile launchers, or in-codex: Ion weapons; which also simply have 2 profiles with no mention of modes/ammunition) resolve that profile and then select the blaster again with a new profile.

This will only actually work well if you go shortest to longest. If you go long-short-mid, or long-mid-short, and kill all models up to long(or all models in short) then you enter into a situation where you cannot fire the final shots as models in that profile range no longer exist(the fact that you are killing models in a range that would be more damaging is fine)

The real issue is that each profile fired may drastically change the number of models in range of the further profiles. Take a squad of breachers short to long against an enemy distributed as follows: 4, 3, 3. The 4 in short hit 2 models, killing them. Now there is no longer 3 in mid because 2 of the mid were firing at the nearest model in the enemy unit, so you get 1 shot killing that model. Now the 2 once-mid are added to long(total 5), but the loss of the earlier models puts the original 3 long out of range. Now you have 2 long that does nothing anyways. Rules-wise this scenario works fine; fire in any other order and the short start to enter into a profile already fired while not even having the option not to fire(since they never had the option to fire when that profile fired).

As far as casualty removal goes: the pulse shotties are not like rapid fire/salvo; each profile is completely independent of the other like SM special issue ammo(which, thankfully, must be all or nothing)

Actually, this all raised an interesting question for me. If everyone is arguing that each profile should be treated as a different weapon, then would that mean the Pulse Accelerator drone would increase the maximum range of each profile? If that's the case, they just got a lot better when in Coordinated Fire with pathfinders with a Pulse Accelerator.

It would change it from 0-5", 5-10", and 10-15" to 0-11", 5-16", and 10-21".

This would be accurate.

And the overlap confusion is clarified in the rules themselves(almost as if the writers actually thought about this combination)

Whelp, my bad. Forgot about Coordinated Firepower lol

Heres the way i see these weapons ruled.

you go to shoot and you measure your 10 man squad, 4 are less than 5 inches from your enemy 3 are 5-10 and the rest are within 15.

you then shoot the close profile, lets say all 4 hit and wound. only 2 enemies in the squad are less than 5 away but you still kill 4 models because the guns actual range is 15in. you then resolve group b and group c in similar fashion.

The problem with taking the "full range" of the weapon into account is that each range-band is, specifically, a separate profile.

It is the same as a sternguard unit firing kraken(or vengeance) bolts with an attached IC that has a bolter. You select the IC's bolter separately from the sternguard's. The vengeance rounds cannot wound past 18", and in the case of kraken rounds, the bolter profile cannot wound past 24".

I always thought you could allocate wounds to maximum weapon range of the squad. Which meant that a Imp. Guard CC squad all equipped with flamers could kill past flamer range if the Commander had a boltgun or something.

peirceg wrote:
I always thought you could allocate wounds to maximum weapon range of the squad. Which meant that a Imp. Guard CC squad all equipped with flamers could kill past flamer range if the Commander had a boltgun or something.

That was 6th edition.

peirceg wrote:
I always thought you could allocate wounds to maximum weapon range of the squad. Which meant that a Imp. Guard CC squad all equipped with flamers could kill past flamer range if the Commander had a boltgun or something.

As Mr Shine said, that was 6th Edition, when all the weapons in the unit fired at the same time. Now in 7th Edition, different weapons are resolved at different times. Different profile lines are considered different weapons for this process, so Krak Missiles and Frag Missiles are fired separately. This means the range of the Wound pool is limited to the weapon being used, so Heavy Bolter ranges cannot be used for Flamer-caused Wounds.

So, either they are all the same weapon, but different range results, and can all Wound up to 15", or each one is fired in a different sub group and can only Wound up to their Range band.

That last part is answered in the codex: you check the range to determine which profile you use(and for the blasts on the giant shotty, you check distance to center hole before scatter)