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Hi all,

I've been a fantasy player all my hobby life, never really ascending the ranks of veteran 40k playing at my local clubs Thursday Vet night. Every time I tried to break in, I was smashed back with the waft of cheese that I cold never settle or find an army to my suiting.

So here we go again. I'm looking for some assistance building out my list, slightly fluff themed but min/maxing what I can within that. Really looking for some assistance in putting a competitive list together. No restrictions monetarily either if I need to go get my self new units. I'm figuring drops pods are needed?

What I have to draw upon:

Black Templars:

1 x Land Raider
1 x Rhino
1 x Venerable Dread
1 x Dread

Captain in artificer armour (Helbrecht)
Captain in Terminator armour (Lysander)
Chaplain w/o jump pack
Terminator Chaplain
Emperor's Champion

1 x 5 Scout Snipers
3 x 10 Tactical Squads
1 x 10 Assault Marines - no jump packs (Sword Brethren mainly)
1 x 5 Command Squad
1 x 5 Devastator Squad
1 x 5 Vanguard Squad
1 x 5 Terminators / Assault or Dakka
1 x 5 Terminators / 3x THSS 2 xLC

Imperial Guard Allies:

Cadian Defence Force
1 x Leman Russ
1 x Chimera
2 x 10 Troopers
1 x 5 Command Squad
3 x 1 Weapon Teams (Las)

1 x 5 Scion HQ Command Squad
Primaris Pskyer


Many thanks in advance. If you want to see the army above actually taking shape take a look at my plog in my sig!

I know nothing about the Marine Codex so i will chime in for the guard.
In my experience a single Chimera is a dead one. So give it camo netting and stick it in cover, better yet an Aegis Line and put your CCS in it with a LC. The infantry squads can be turned into Veterans w/forward sentries. Spread the remaining LCs among them.
The primaris model can be used to represent an Astropath for the CCS. The Scions can be made a 5 man Stormicide melta unit.
Re: the Russ. You should magnetise the main gun at the very least. The marine part of your army will probably be smiting heretics in glorious melee so something to support them by opening tin cans. An Exterminator is good at this.

Appreciate that @Konst80hummel, I might have to have a stab at a list to generate more feedback.

Posting a starter list would be helpful for more responses. The other thing, and it pains me to say this as I love black Templars from a fluff perspective, is that you have picked probably the least competitive space marine chapter tactics.

When I play black Templars I play them fluffy with 3x land raider crusaders and 2x crusader squads and 1 honor guard with badass chapter masters. For support I usually take a few storm talons with skyhammers, or if I can fit them thunderfire cannons.

The problems with black Templars are many. First they are an assaulting army that has very very hard time getting into an assualt(hense my use of crusaders in 3's). Second all of their hq choices are meh, and they lack access to special relics like the gorgons chain to give them the durability that other chapters enjoy.

Another thing. Competitive space marines are all about the grav, some melta but mostly grav. And with those either bikes or centurions since they are both relentless. Black templar chapter tactics just don't play to either of those strengths well... Making matters worse they "abhor the witch." Nowadays assaulting armies NEED physker powers to be effective. Invisibility is a must for deathstars, and hammerhand or gate of infinity are both really good. There are plenty of other great combos that black Templars will never really be able to take advantage of.

So what do you really want out of 40k? All out competitiveness or a fluffy list?

Appreciate the honesty Epartalis.

Seems my pursuit of fluff will forever see me at a disadvantage. I was hoping my allied Guard contingent could do all the shooting whilst I get the BT's into combat.

Idealistically I prefer a fluffy list, but to at least max this out with its competitive potential.

Trying to work on a list asap.

Many thanks!

Alright so for your guard allies what exactly is it? Right now it's an unbound list.

Are you running a platoon or are you running vets?

Essentially to have allies you need an hq which all you have is a company command squad.

As your troops if you run a platoon you then need another platoon command squad and minimum 2 infantry squads. Then you can take the heavy weapons squad.

If you run veterans then you just need the 2 infantry squads. But if you do that then you can't take the heavy weapons team as it has to be taken with a platoon. Instead you can break the heavy weapons squad up and give the ccs and 2 vets each a heavy weapons team that way you use all 3. Put the ccs in the chimera, the scions are your elite, the Russ is heavy support and the psyker you can attach where ever.

But you need to organize it into either a combined arms or an allied detachment unless you mean to run it as unbound because right now it is and the cadian defense force isn't a formation of any kind.

Hope that helps!

Tankboy145 - thanks so much man. I was umm'ing and ar'ing about the heavy weapons teams if they needed a platoon or not.

I've finally started to pin down my Guard list as there isn't much more I want to grow. I want them to be my AT/Shooting alternative, to my assaulting BT's.

Imperial Guard Allied Attachment:

HQ

CCS
Mast of Ordinance
Vox Caster
Regimental Standard
Carapace Armour
Lascannon Weapons Team

- 108

Primaris Psyker (I heard something nifty with adding him with the Templars, where they wouldn't normally get a librarian?)
Lvl2

- 75

Troops

10 x Veterans
Vox
Grenadiers
2 x Plasma
Sgt w/ Boltgun
Lascannon Weapons Team

- 111

10 x Veterans
Vox
Grenadiers
2 x Plasma
Sgt w/ Boltgun
Lascannon Weapons Team
- 111

Elite

5 x Militarum Tempestus Scions
Vox
2 x Melta
Chimera Transport

- 150

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Squadron

2 x Exterminators'
Extra Armour
Camo Net
Lascannon
Plasma sponsor (these worth it?)

- 215/430

1 x Vanquisher
Extra Armour
Camo Net
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter Sponsors

- 175

Allied sub-total: 1,160

Queries:
Am I paying for my weapons teams correctly/hampering their parent unit?
Is the scion unit worth it, that I couldn't do with Sternguard?
Russ squadron what's the best min/max setup here?

You are using the heavy weapons correctly. Essentially 2 single models in the squad become one to make that heavy weapons team.

The scions are much cheaper than. The stern guard and what you want to do with them is keep them at a 5 man squad, give 2 of the guys melta guns and deep strike them. If they lab close enough have them melta a vehicle.

Your russes are alright. I would ditch the extra armor. It's points you really don't need to waste. Camo is alright I guess but since russes are av14,13,10(or 11) most stuff that shoots them won't damage them. And standard cover should be fine for them to get away with.

Also if you take a vanquisher kit it out anti tank like. Give it a hull lascannon at the minimum and if you want sponsons go with multi meltas or sponson plasma canons. Giving it heavy bolters or anything else mixes it's roll too much and being bs3 the vehicle already struggles.

As for exterminators run then with whatever. They are pretty decent with all upgrades all around.

Here is what I would consider. Run another combined arms detachment. You have 1 hq with the ccs and 2 troops with the vets. Having another combined arms gives you another hq slot. Upgrade your vanquisher Russ to be a tank commander so he gets bs4 and stick 1 or both the exterminators in there to be in his squadron since he has to have at least one other Russ in a squad with him. The increase in bs will make the vanquisher a better choice because normally only having bs3 means he will only hit half the time which isn't good at all.

As for the chimera stick the company command squad inside it. This will give them some extra protection as a small 5 man squad is pretty easy to kill lol.

Hope that helps!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Getting rid of all the extra armor should be enough to make the vanquisher a tank commander.

@tankboy145 - Once again thank you for your time brother!

I will swap out the chimera to the ccs instead of the Scions. As you say their deep strike ability, makes that chimera wasted.

Here is how my full 2,000 pts is shaping up:

Space Marine Contingent:

HQ

Chaplain
Armour Indomitus

- 90

Troops

Crusader Squad CCW+BP (Worth 4 more Neophytes, to fill the LRC?)
5 x Initiates
1 x Sword Brother
1 x PW
1 x Flamer
1 x Lightning claws on SB
Land Raider Crusader
(Chaplain and Primaris Psyker go with)

- 455

Crusader Squad CCW+BP
5 X Initiates
1 x Sword Brother
1 x PW
Rhino

- 160

Elite

Assault Terminators
x 3 TH/SS

205

Space Marine sub-total = 985

Imperial Guard Allied Attachment:

HQ

CCS
Mast of Ordinance
Vox Caster
Regimental Standard
Carapace Armour
Lascannon Weapons Team
Chimera Transport

- 138

Primaris Psyker
Lvl2

- 75

Tank Commander

- **

Troops

10 x Veterans
Vox
Grenadiers
2 x Plasma
Sgt w/ Boltgun
Lascannon Weapons Team

- 111

10 x Veterans
Vox
Grenadiers
2 x Plasma
Sgt w/ Boltgun
Lascannon Weapons Team
- 111

Elite

5 x Militarum Tempestus Scions
2 x Melta

- 110

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Squadron with Tank Commander

2 x Exterminators'
Lascannon
Plasma sponsor

- 380

1 x Vanquisher
Lascannon
Multi-meltas

- 165

Allied sub-total: 1,090

Army Total: 2,000

Queries:
So I need to shave off 120 points. I'm thinking or taking the scouts out completely to start, but from there I'm lost. I had hoped to have a larger SM force

Also with the Emperors Champion or Helbrecht available to me, is the Chaplain a cheaper viable option, or are they worth the points?

If you need to save some points start with the camo netting on the russes. From personal experience. Unless its lance or long range hay wire most ranged weapons will struggle to hurt your russes armor. Also consider dropping the vox on the scions. They should be well out of order range of they are deep striking behind enemy lines to take something out. And your squads shouldn't be moving much if they have a heavy weapons team with them.

 tankboy145 wrote:
If you need to save some points start with the camo netting on the russes. From personal experience. Unless its lance or long range hay wire most ranged weapons will struggle to hurt your russes armor. Also consider dropping the vox on the scions. They should be well out of order range of they are deep striking behind enemy lines to take something out. And your squads shouldn't be moving much if they have a heavy weapons team with them.

Good shout on the scion vox! I've updated the list, removing the camo netting as well.

By taking out the scouts I come 10 pts under 2000, so something else to play with. I've added a PW to my second crusader squad sword brother.

Many thanks Tank! Appreciate it!

Yup, no problem! And if you're playing somewhat fluffy like you seem to have, your marine force should almost always be smaller than your guard. Guard should usually outnumber the marines so if you're wishing you had more marines just remember from a fluff perspective it looks about right!

Oh just stop it now!

Always a perfect example!

Thanks again bro!

Not a problem, glad to be of help!

Back in the day when I ran templars in 5th ed, yes 5th ed...I lost a lot...I crammed as many guys in my LRC as would fit and threw in the EC and a chappy for LoLz. If that unit got to combat it obliterated just about every unit it charged. My problem was having nothing else that could support them. I tried storm ravens, terminators with cyclones (you could take 2 in 5 termies back then) and the like, but nothing seemed to work. Alas I gave up and now play Raven guard. I like that you are at least giving Templars a go. Looks solid. Your guard part looks good too. AV14 russes are rough to take down. Beware of Tau though...they kind of laugh at whatever you put on the table and roll so many dice you have to pick your stuff up. I'd love to hear how this force does though! Post up some batreps for us to parooze and we can fine tune our critiques. Cheers!