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Okay, our forum became merged with some riff-raff due to insufficient activity. Well, let's generate some activity.

Human Sphere pre-order ends 28 April and sometime thereafter ( a few weeks) the rest of us will get our hands on the book. However, in the intervening 2 months we will have ample opportunity to examine things because of the early release at Adepticon. We can use this thread for that, instead of the N&R thread.

Go....

My store has reserved a copy for me.

I have to say I'm super excited. I was a bit low on Infinity enthusiasm after HSN3 was gestating for so long. I appreciate they wanted to make is as good as possible, but the last 6 months I started shifting more to Malifaux.

The information release over the weekend completely hyped me back up for Infinity. I cannot wait to try the new Hassassin Bahram, pretty much every issue I had with it has been resolved.

QK didn't get much and even copped a few nerfs, but lets be honest, it had them coming. The Hafza nerf to only 2 per link wasn't expected, but in hindsight it should have been seen coming. A lot of people ran it more as the ability to insert a model or two into a Hafza link, rather than the other way around. However, we also got the ability to insert a Hafza into a Haris link which has been screamed for since Haris was introduced, allowing an Odalisque Haris to carry a Hafza FO.

I really like the Sekban change to BS13. Puts them a step above Odalisques with shooting while Odalisques get the mobility.

Also, that Maghariba. Holy gak. Not sure if I want to finish my old Maghariba now.

I've got my book on order, along with govads and HVT. It'll be a long wait. I'll pass the time painting. In theory.

Giving Haris to the Hafza more than offsets the link number reduction. I generally ran 2 to a link ( 3 Djan, 2 Hafza, or 3 Odas 2 Hafza) to get cheap FO specialists so I won't notice the change really.

Mag Guard, so nice, but I'm thinking it may fall victim to the same thing which beset the original. The ability to move it around on the table without the terrain getting in the way.

Figuring out if Bahram is worth trying again , that is the puzzle ATM.

I've got mine pre-ordered from a local dealer.

It's the first book with a mini where I'm keeping the mini (A druze I can use. I don't play vanilla, so ABHs were never something I was going to use, and I just didn't like the miku styled idoru figure from paradiso).

 Red Harvest wrote:
I've got my book on order, along with govads and HVT. It'll be a long wait. I'll pass the time painting. In theory.

I packed my Tohaa away into my old 40k carry case where they will stay until I have finished all my Haqqislam. I then went and bought the Govads. I was on annual leave, so as soon as I watched the HSN3 video on BoW that said Govads get haris, I jumped in my car, drove to my FLGS and grabbed them. I'll grab the Haqq HVT as soon as it shows up.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Giving Haris to the Hafza more than offsets the link number reduction. I generally ran 2 to a link ( 3 Djan, 2 Hafza, or 3 Odas 2 Hafza) to get cheap FO specialists so I won't notice the change really.

Yes, mostly talking about where people ran 2 Jannisarys/Djanbazan/Kaplan and 3 Hafza to keep the link price down. At that point you're running a Hafza link and inserting other units for their unique benefits like heavy armour/wounds, Mimetism, MSV2, etc, which wasn't the intention.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Mag Guard, so nice, but I'm thinking it may fall victim to the same thing which beset the original. The ability to move it around on the table without the terrain getting in the way.

Depends how packed your table is, which I think falls to the US/EU table divide. It should have no issues moving about an EU table, since it can step over almost all scatter terrain and there's fewer buildings. A US table will give it problems, like it already does for 55mm bases. My Kum are terrible on US style tables, as seen here. That biker in the middle could go nowhere.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Figuring out if Bahram is worth trying again , that is the puzzle ATM.

Absolutely. Figuring out the Ayyars place and Yasbirs due to the holo 2 changes, new Haris options to try which also open up new core links (Lasiqs might be good now if you can ferry specialists around in a Haris), options against camo... A good time to be a Bahram player, they made out like bandits.

@ Loki: That table was the work of Colin Clarke (Scarecrow on the forums) - and was made when he was running pure Bahram - so bikes just weren't something he had even considered.
Then he sold off his Bahram and went tohaa (and then became a dad, and has SFA gaming time anymore. )

His later table designs were more open in design (so he did learn) even if he does suffer from artistic self-doubt (his execution rarely lives up to his expectations).

As it is, I'll have some new models to paint up (5 armies, 4 covered in this book) before the book arrives, and that's BEFORE any of the new units from the book get considered.

Yeah I know, but it's pretty representative of current dense tables. They're just not conducive to large bases, especially the new 55mm's, so the Maghariba isn't really alone there.

ORC with Haris and Duo. Haris looks fantastic, I see less applications for a Duo but that might change. I'd wish for a missile launcher and paramedic options, but I guess now I know why CB keeps drawing ORC with Trauma Doctor.

Black Friar. Partially surprised how limited Albedo is in armies. Hope they're not done and we'll see it more. It's going to be amazing against smoke and MSV combo. It's also going to be great to disrupt MSV models on suppressive fire.

Montesa underwent through great changes. Chain colt for close combat and intuitive attack. Light rocket launcher adds fire ammunition, I'm not sure how I feel about assault without any MA. It could be useful in missions where there's a saturation zone and opponent has MOD stacked in his favour but no real close combat skills. Can't wait for a new model. Similar with ORC I don't know about Duo. The only Duo I see myself using would be Santiago, however, I'd have to play MO sectorial who gives up a lot in the hacking area.

Bagh Mari now have number 2 and HMG lieutenant is now available to generic force as well. AVA 5 in a sectorial is also nice.

Acontecimento regular hacker with pandas and LGL. They've combined my two favourite pieces of equipment on one profile. How thoughtful.

Supposedly Acontecimento is getting new models later on. Probably a starter, anyone dares to guess what could it contain? I'm wishing for three regulars, two Bagh Mari and Montesa (LRL).

Pre-ordered. I've not bought a single model since Icestorm and won't until the 50 I have unpainted are finished, and that can't start until I finish the protracted house sale/move/renovate/storm repair I've now been at for over a year, but I'm buying this. Infinity rulebooks are just so pretty.

50? Bah, amateur.

With the proliferation of 55mm bases, I believe that table density is decreasing. At least that is what I am seeing, and doing.

A Bagh Mari box seems obvious, now that they are AVA 5. Tikbalang is now AVA 2 to make up for loss of Toni. Scylla, Drakios and Teucer, no idea here. Teucer might be something now that the Feuerbach is improved.

Montesa got a nice boost with the MOV change in N3. These new changes make it even better. Here is the sectorial list for ASA, in a readable format.

---- SHOCK ARMY OF ACONTECIMENTO ----

TROOP NAME AVA FIRETEAM

Regulars Total Core
Akalis 5
Bagh-Mari 5 Core, Haris
Orc Troop 3 Duo, Haris
Guarda de Assalto 4
Knight of Montesa 2 Duo
Dragao 1
Tikbalang 2
Naga 2
Kirpal Singh 1
Stephen Rao 1 Core (Bagh-Mari), Haris (Bagh-Mari)
Drakios 1
Teucer 1
Scylla 1
Pathfinder Dronbot 1
Sierra Dronbot 1
Clipper Dronbot 1
Fugazi Dronbot 3
Bulleteer Armbot 2
Peacemaker Armbot 2
Palbot 4
Mulebot 2
Trauma-Doc 1
Machinist 2
Warcor 1
If anyone else has sectorial lists, feel free to post them.

I read that 5 to 8 May is when the rules and new profiles et al become ITS legal. I'm wondering if that means that HS will start shipping sooner, rather than later, in the month. And the rules PDF will become available, because without it, how to plan an army list with the new rules and equipment?

May 5 to 8 is about the timeframe that people who are in Spain/continental Europe and preordered would likely get their copies in hand if they ordered express from CB.

Preorders for HSN3 run until April 27th. I would be VERY surprised to see them beat May 5th-8th.

Imperial Service.

Celestial Guard - Total - Core
Bao Troops - 4 - Core*
Zhanying Agents - 4 - Haris*
Imperial Agents Pheasant Rank - 4 - Haris*
Imperial Agent Crane Rank - 5 - Core*
Wu Ming - 4 - Core / Core* / Duo
Hsien - 4 -
Su-Jian - 3 - Duo
Ninjas - 1 -
Kanren - 3 -
Kuang Shi - 8 - Core*
Dakini - 2
Garuda - 1
Sophotects - 1
Yudbots - 2
Authorised Bounty Hunters - 2
Father Lucien - 1
Miranda Ashcroft - 1
Sun Tze (v1 or v2) - 1
Yaoxie Rui Shi - 2
Yaoxie Lu Duan - 2
Yaokong Weibing - 2
Yaokong Husong - 3
Yaokong Son-Bae - 1
Yaokong Chaiyi - 1
Yaopu Pangguling - 1
Warcors

Fireteam Core, up to 4 Bao + 1 Pheasant Rank
Fireteam Haris, 1 Hsien can join a Haris of Zhanying
Fireteam Haris, up to 2 Bao can join a Haris of Pheasant Rank
Fireteam Core, up to 3 Crane Rank can join a Core of Celestial Guard
Fireteam Core, up to 4 Wu Ming + 1 Zhanying
Fireteam Core, up to 4 Kuang Shi + 1 Celestial Guard with Kuang Shi Control Device





Bakunin

Moderators - Total - Core
Reverend Moiras - 5 - Core
Reverend Custodiers - 3 - Haris
Reverend Healers - 3 - Special*
Sin-Eater - 3
Riot Grrls - 5 - Core, Haris
Taskmasters - 4 - Duo
Prowlers - 3
Zeros - 3
Lizard Squadron - 1
Morlocks - Total
Uberfallkommando - 3
Cassandra Kusanagi - 1 - Special*
Bran de Castro - 1
Zoe & Pi-Well - 1
Avicenna - 1
Tsyklon Sputnik - 2
Lunokhod - 2
Stempler Zond - 2
Reaktion Zond - 1
Vertigo Zond - 1
Meteor Zond - 1
Transductor Zond - 2
Zondbots - 4
Salyut Zond - 2
Clockmakers - 2
Daktaris - 1
Warcor - 1

Special Fireteam - Up to 1 Rev Healer can join a Core of Moiras or a Haris of Custodiers
Special Fireteam - Kusanagi can join a Core of Moiras, a Core of Moiras + 1 Healer, or a Haris of Custodiers


Bakunin actually looks super solid to me. Slightly wish Taskmasters could Haris but that'd be too powerful probably

I've read that señor Massacre can now link with Jaguars. Geckos got duo option. Amazing.

Interventors have a hacking device with upgrade: Lightning, it allows them to attack two enemy hackers simultaneously.

Syclla is going to be useful. Multiple hacking device options, killer hacking device even has Maestro upgrade. The Devabots that come with her act as repeaters and all of them have jungle terrain.

Teucer now has Free Agent. He's also the only profile in the Shock Army with MSV 2.

I do hope these are not all the changes that will happen to Shock Army.

 Red Harvest wrote:
A Bagh Mari box seems obvious, now that they are AVA 5. Tikbalang is now AVA 2 to make up for loss of Toni.

It's why I think the new starter is going to have three Acontecimento Regulars and two Bagh Maris. Afterwards it's easy to plan a release of SWC box for Regulars and Bagh Mari.

Combi rifle Bagh Mari and a Sniper? CB does like to put snipers in starter boxes these days.

I was more intrigued by the Devabots' heavy flamers, TBH. I'll need to actually play a few times with Scylla on the table to see. Nobody I know plays ALEPH, so I have no idea how well the unit does.

I was hoping to see more Camo. It seems odd to be jungle fighters and have no camo, except the Nagas.

Not much of a shock in Shock Army without forward deploying elements either. I felt down, once I saw the theme of USAriadna. It meant it was unlikely for Shock Army to receive forward deploying element such as Marauders. I'd loved to have such element in lieu of ORC.

I am guessing, if two Bagh Mari would be included in a box, they'd be combi rifle and a boarding shotgun for haris profile. Then, they can release HMG, MSR and hacker in a SWC box. If they include a MSR Bagh Mari in a starter and others in blisters, similar to Nisse releases, that could also work. Depends how much they want to reduce the blisters in their catalogue.

Could someone explain to me how to properly use the new holoecho? You will now be able to combine L1 and L2, so your sepulcher knight could look like 3 unasuming fusiliers. But I've read some of the scans and it says that you still have to place a holoecho token next to one of the models so your opponent knows they're facing holoecho. Doesn't that let the cat out of the bag and tell you that they are 3 sepulcher knights?

Henshini wrote:
Could someone explain to me how to properly use the new holoecho? You will now be able to combine L1 and L2, so your sepulcher knight could look like 3 unasuming fusiliers. But I've read some of the scans and it says that you still have to place a holoecho token next to one of the models so your opponent knows they're facing holoecho. Doesn't that let the cat out of the bag and tell you that they are 3 sepulcher knights?

This is the bit I don't understand either, because holoechoes are supposed to be tokens, not models...

Holo 2 isn't a form of camo or impersonation of even a similar effect to holo 1.

Holo 2 the opponent knows what the unit is. You don't get to hide it. It however duplicates the amount of that model to 3. You then make a note of which is actually the model (you can choose for it to be the model itself, or the model is another echo and one of the tokens is actually the model), and any time they attack the wrong one, an echo disappears.

Don't think of holo 2 as a type of hiding a unit, but as a way of playing a mini shell game with your opponent. They know what the unit is, but they're seeing 3 of the model and don't know which one is the actual model.

It gives them much harder decisions when they react to the model - if they choose to shoot in ARO and select the wrong token, you can shoot with an unopposed roll while they harmlessly shoot an echo. They might choose to wait, but if your second short skill doesn't reveal you they lose their second reaction so you might move behind them or out of sight.

I think we're confused about combining holo 1 and holo 2, because it seems like the three holoechoes created by holo 2 are markers/tokens in rules terms, rather than models.

They are. The model is included as one of the tokens because holo 2 doesn't disguise the model, which placing 3 holoecho tokens would do. The model is effectively a token, one of the three, and you make a note of which of the three is the real model. But it needs to be on the table becuase knowledge of what unit has the holo 2 device is public.

Again, holo 2 isn't like holo 1 which hides a unit. It's an entirely separate effect.

This is why a lot of people use multiple models rather than markers. They'll have the same model three or four times, but two or three will likely be painted to look like holograms. Looks better on the table when you have red, blue and green versions of the guy running at the opponent and they don't know who to shoot.

But in HSN3 Holo 2 CAN use the holo 1 ability to make itself look like 3 completely different models with the same profile as each other. Hence all of the Patroclus + achilles = 4 achilles debates.

Henshini wrote:
But in HSN3 Holo 2 CAN use the holo 1 ability to make itself look like 3 completely different models with the same profile as each other. Hence all of the Patroclus + achilles = 4 achilles debates.

Patroclus has holo level 3 which can do that. Holo 2 can't.

I'm sure it'll be clear once we read the wording of the three holoprojector levels.

But lets say... I have Father Lucien. And i disguise him as a generic Celestial Guard. I then use holo 2 to make holoechoes of that celestial guard.

So i have one "real" CG, and two CG echoes.

For the purpose of rules, are those two echoes considered tokens/markers? Do i need to identify this to my opponent?

And HSN3 gets around this somehow? I thought HSN3 just allowed it to work in the Duo link.

 Micky wrote:
I'm sure it'll be clear once we read the wording of the three holoprojector levels.

But lets say... I have Father Lucien. And i disguise him as a generic Celestial Guard. I then use holo 2 to make holoechoes of that celestial guard.

So i have one "real" CG, and two CG echoes.

For the purpose of rules, are those two echoes considered tokens/markers? Do i need to identify this to my opponent?

And HSN3 gets around this somehow? I thought HSN3 just allowed it to work in the Duo link.

You can't do that. When you have holo level 2, you have holo level 1 as well. But they're distinctly different. Like different levels of AD, you choose which one you want to use.

If you choose to use holo level 1, you deploy him as another model from a unit you have taken in your list.

If you use holo level 2, you deploy him as he is, with 2 holo echo markers. All 3 count as holo echo markers, including the model, which is there so your opponent knows what model the markers represent.

From snippets we've gotten from HSN3, holo 3, which only Patroclus has access to, you combine the effects. So Patroclus, with holo 3, can do what you just described.

Again, holo 2 is not for disguising your model. If you want to do that, you use holo 1, but the effects cannot be combined without holo 3. If you have holo 2, you choose which effect you want. Disguise or holo echoes.

Well Carlos needs to stop contradicting that in videos.

He didn't, at least in the holoprojector video. They said it in a fairly confusing way though (which is par for the course with Carlos). But people that have the book have confirmed it's Patroclus holo 3 that lets you duplicate other models with your echos, not holo 2. Holo 2 hasn't changed much at all aside from receiving Surprise Shot L1.

HSN3 is a year too late for my playing group. They pawned their armies already. Im the only one who even owns infinity miniatures out of them now, and thats cos I just never sell my stuff.

As someone who doesnt game in far away lgs or clubs as theyre extremely inconvenient for me, the loss of my established group was the end of infinity for me. I still got a few tags (including 1 caskuda) and about 10 human size models sitting on a shelf unassembled from last year.

I only got into infinity when icestorm was released and had been talked into it by the N2 group, so idk all the reasons for them stopping but the common ones were about ITS model creep and the switch to paying for 4 model boxes where they could only want 1-2 of the models ever.

Ahh well. I hope you guys enjoy infinity more than I have. Its been a waste of cash to me.

On another note, I have partially impaired memory so Im probably going to drop wargaming anyway. Im sick of struggling to remember convulated rules.

Dropbear Victim wrote:
As someone who doesnt game in far away lgs or clubs as theyre extremely inconvenient for me, the loss of my established group was the end of infinity for me. I still got a few tags (including 1 caskuda) and about 10 human size models sitting on a shelf unassembled from last year.

I only got into infinity when icestorm was released and had been talked into it by the N2 group, so idk all the reasons for them stopping but the common ones were about ITS model creep and the switch to paying for 4 model boxes where they could only want 1-2 of the models ever.

The box problem is a common complaint, but it's worth mentioning that 'I'll only use 2 of them' is strange. A more common complaint is the inability to field a WYSIWIG force due to CB releasing only 1 profile with sometimes years between releases. With that type of release, using the Sekban as an example, we'd be proxying the HRL from the blister for years. Instead a few months later we got every single other profile, plus a proxy model, in a box.

In vanilla they're AVA 2, so yes, you only use 2 of the 5 combined models at a time. But one game you might want a shotgun and a rifle, the other you might want a spitfire and a rifle, another you might want 2 rifles. You can now do all that. Then there's sectorials - if you wanted to run a Sekban link, you actually can. I want to use a 5 man Djabnazan link, and I can't without proxying or repeat models because there's 4 models, and 2 of those are from first edition and are hideous.

ITS model creep is a real issue. Absolutely. But then you say you don't play in clubs or stores, so why were you guys bothered by ITS? Play something else like YAMs or 20x20. Limiting yourselves to ITS when you play in an environment when you can control what you play just seems self inflicted.

I get that people fall out with games, but these seem like pretty superficial reasons to drop out.

Dropbear Victim wrote:
On another note, I have partially impaired memory so Im probably going to drop wargaming anyway. Im sick of struggling to remember convulated rules.

This, however, sadly seems like an actual reason. If I may offer a suggestion if you enjoy miniature gaming, look to boardgames. Zombicide has very, very simple rules and is a blast. There's a few of them now so there's a lot of content, and there's a Heroquest style RPG-lite game coming from them soon called Massive Darkness. Also stuff from FFG if you like Star Wars. Imperial Assault is a Star Wars RPG-lite boardgame, with a small skirmish game added on. X-Wing has is super simple rules. Both are incredible good.

This topic might have been a better place to post the issues.

Sad to hear that, I can sympathise. I'm not keen on their reduction of blisters and how certain armies are in a need of specialists/number of orders in ITS either. Fortunately I've found a player or two that also play more casually, we'll probably play non ITS games. I'd probably have given up, if I'd have to play against more hard ball playing players. I'd echo Loki's thought. Some board games are quite capable to satisfy the gaming itch. Either way, best of luck in the future.

Dropbear Victim wrote:I'm sick of struggling to remember convulated rules.

I agree on this point. Infinity has a vast rule set and in N3 the number of ways of applying MOD had increased. I had games where my opponent spend more time calculating/creating the best MOD rather than focusing on interaction. I do like how Carlos tries to sell Infinity, however when opponents focus on generating the best mechanical advantage, the game will rarely live up to the selling pitch.

Will there be a decent amount of fluff in the book?