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leopard wrote:
that price for four drop pods is urine extraction, they may well ne nice models but if ever there was a game model thats both easy to proxy and easy to replace with a small card token its a drop pod.

I see them as no different to any different to GW terrain pieces that get premium prices. You're not really paying for a typical unit here, as you say they can be easily represented by a token (paint pots are probably quite close to the right dimensions!). You're mainly paying for something that looks better on the tabletop.

Personally I prefer to use Spartans & Thunderhawks as transports anyway, so won't be buying any. However if anyone is tempted to go all-out on drop pods despite the price, all I'd say is don't be shocked if they show up in a discounted boxed set sooner or later. Legion drop pod assault seems like a slam-dunk theme to use for xmas sets like these:

Good to see the Warbringer and Warmaster are back, along with the vanilla Warhounds.

For the time being I think I might save my pennies for the Knight bundle, and hope that GW do the sensible thing and announce a plastic Armigers kit.

I'm going to be curious to see the sprue layout that only lets them fit 4 pods in a box. Geeze.

I imagine they're also going to be a nightmare to build.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to be curious to see the sprue layout that only lets them fit 4 pods in a box. Geeze.

Base plate, five supports/fins, five doors, engine. Then five missile launchers, and five passenger brace things. Oh and a combi-bolter each.

Given these look to be fairly tall, it’s not that different to the Spartan kit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to be curious to see the sprue layout that only lets them fit 4 pods in a box. Geeze.

Base plate, five supports/fins, five doors, engine. Then five missile launchers, and five passenger brace things. Oh and a combi-bolter each.

Given these look to be fairly tall, it’s not that different to the Spartan kit.

Most of those bits are reasonably narrow though, would have figured they'd fit 3 on a sprue with an efficient layout.

I'm wondering if to make it hinged they had to add some parts twice whereas to be always open or always closed they could have done less parts. If they could have done always open and got 8 in a box it'll be disappointing.

In any case, I don't see me buying them at that price, I know the game is priced around 2 sprues per box, but for something like drop pods I would have hoped they could subsidise the cost a bit and make them cheaper, it's not like included a 3rd sprue would cost them 50% more.

Unless a community forms around LI to give me a reason to build up more, I don't see me investing much more in the game. Between the price, the lack of availability and what IMO is overly complex rules, GW are doing a great job at putting a damper on my interest.

I will probably grab the Arvus Lighters for AI though One of my favourite models for some reason.

The Arvus are the model of the year, and so its only natural you'd be drawn to them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm going to be curious to see the sprue layout that only lets them fit 4 pods in a box. Geeze.

Base plate, five supports/fins, five doors, engine. Then five missile launchers, and five passenger brace things. Oh and a combi-bolter each.

Given these look to be fairly tall, it’s not that different to the Spartan kit.

Here's how they scale up to infantry. I think the paint pot comparison is pretty close.

adding a third sprue costs a minimal amount, but it then sets the expectation for other boxes to be the same - GW have decided two per box, thats your lot

IIRC someone said a while back the cost to GW of the box & instructions is higher than the cost to GW of the plastic

Depends in what context though doesn't it. I'm pretty sure the design work behind models costs more than the design work behind the instructions. Esp since you can't have the instructions without first developing the models anyway.

We all know we aren't playing for "raw material cost" when we buy something; we are paying for the shareholders; artists; photographers; shipping; delivery; white dwarf; marketing; videos; GW community website; apps; etc..... There's the whole load of GW itself that has to pay out ontop of money for investments in future expansion and profits.

The cost of printed materials are relatively higher since GW has to outsource that work to another company, while design and production of the plastic models is all done in house.

leopard wrote:
adding a third sprue costs a minimal amount, but it then sets the expectation for other boxes to be the same - GW have decided two per box, thats your lot

IIRC someone said a while back the cost to GW of the box & instructions is higher than the cost to GW of the plastic

I doubt expectations are the issue tbh, I suspect most people would be inclined to compare by model count more than number of sprues. We know GW certainly doesn't mind putting less sprues in a box for the same price after all (Eldar Phoenix bombers in AI probably the most obvious and directly comparable to LI example... ). And other companies seem to have no issues - BF have boxes fairly consistently of five tanks (sometimes 4) for Team Yankee / Flames of War with pretty variable number of sprues but consistent price points around how many vehicles it builds rather than sprue count. E.g. the TY Leopard 1 kit makes 5 tanks with double the number of sprues that the Leo 2 box has, for instance at the same price point.

 Overread wrote:
Depends in what context though doesn't it. I'm pretty sure the design work behind models costs more than the design work behind the instructions. Esp since you can't have the instructions without first developing the models anyway.

We all know we aren't playing for "raw material cost" when we buy something; we are paying for the shareholders; artists; photographers; shipping; delivery; white dwarf; marketing; videos; GW community website; apps; etc..... There's the whole load of GW itself that has to pay out ontop of money for investments in future expansion and profits.

That's kinda missing the point here, the design costs are fixed and have no real bearing on the number of sprues in the box - what is important in that respect of development costs is how many boxes they sell to recoup the investment (and make profit). The point is the material costs are so low that the amount of plastic in the box only really affects profitability in as far as it influences how many boxes they shift.

Now obviously if they put too much in a box then that means people won't need to buy as many boxes and that would mean they won't sell enough of them. The drop pods IMO are pretty clearly the opposite issue, where the value proposition is so poor that will also lead to them selling less boxes. However I'm inclined to suspect that GW assume a pretty large portion of their customer is price insensitive to anything that comes with a GW label on it (plenty of evidence for that in this thread lol), whether they're sufficiently right about that on this occasion I guess we'll never know for sure (though I guess if we do see a big "discounted" box with LI drop pods in the future that might be an indication?).

For me:ire Wolves and Drop Pods will be the main draw this weekend. Glad to see them finally out.

LI has downscaled 28mm models without much additional work in the design, the artworks and general design is made for HH anyway so it is more of using something that is already there for an additional game

the majority of the work here is making the frame, which is said be software automated to a point (at least years back this was written as a big improvement in the process and why GW can make all those high detailed models because their software cutting it much better apart for the frame layout as anyone else can)
this work in addition to the initial costs of the mould are included in the cost per frame and it is not just the pure raw-material

yet ordering boxes from a 3rd party and have printed cardboard is expensive
those are external costs and printing and shipping costs a lot these days

4 frames per Box would cost less for GW, and if the margin of a product is low the packaging would have a big influence (hence why you get certain products only in large packs because packaging in smaller amounts would kill the profit)



But,
we are talking here about >50% margin total for a product, and with such high values selling 2 frames per box is much more profitable for GW than any savings in material or work with 4 frames per box

2 frames for 40€ because this is still a low enough value per box that people don't mind buying a box a month
making it 3 frames for 58€ or 4 frames for 75€ and it would look different and being recognised as more expensive (even if you need the 4 frames anyway, buying a single box once for 75€ is different than buying 2 boxes weeks appart for 40€)

 Overread wrote:
Depends in what context though doesn't it. I'm pretty sure the design work behind models costs more than the design work behind the instructions. Esp since you can't have the instructions without first developing the models anyway.

We all know we aren't playing for "raw material cost" when we buy something; we are paying for the shareholders; artists; photographers; shipping; delivery; white dwarf; marketing; videos; GW community website; apps; etc..... There's the whole load of GW itself that has to pay out ontop of money for investments in future expansion and profits.

That is true.

But compare what you get from a box of Drop pods (4), and a box of Cadian Infantry (10).

Both same price. It is ridiculous.

I'm of the mind that the entire LI game doesnt make sense, unless you buy most of your stuff from a discounter and take your time with the purchases. The kits will take a few years to release anyways, buying a few kits now and then, instead of splurging on a massive shopping spree all at once. Like, if you collect your army now, you'll just end up having rubbish like too many predators and so on..

And speaking of the rules, my mind is first set on collecting a core force, and then playing with them using any edition I happen to fancy. For someone like me, the biggest appeal in LI are the models themselves.

I'd reckon three boxes of pods already gets you enough to start with. I'll be adding them one kit per month, or something like that. Just hope they can be magnetized so I can convert basic pods to deathstrorms and vice versa..

Does anyone happen to know how many infantry stands, Rhinos and Land Raiders came with the original 1st edition Space Marine? Per side (ie the total amount divided by two)? That's my first goalpost for the collection..

SU-152 wrote:

But compare what you get from a box of Drop pods (4), and a box of Cadian Infantry (10).

Both same price. It is ridiculous.

Opportunity cost is kinda the issue though. Why would GW want to sell a larger box of 6-8 drop pods at a similar price to a box of Cadians, when the former will consume twice as much production time, twice as much packaging & warehouse space, and twice as much shipping capacity? Or alternatively they can use those same resources to sell two boxes of Cadians, LI Basilisks, Tau guys, etc?

It's clear that enough people were willing to buy plastic civitas terrain & tiles with a similar level of 'value' that I'm sure GW are confident of selling drop pod as boxes of 4.

 kodos wrote:
But,
we are talking here about >50% margin total for a product, and with such high values selling 2 frames per box is much more profitable for GW than any savings in material or work with 4 frames per box

Well, I'm not buying it, so their profit from me went from something to zero If they have 60% profit margin, and they drop to 55% profit margin for adding an extra sprue their profit from a box would have gone from $30 to $27.50, but now it's gone from $30 to $0

We all know GW are taking the piss with their prices, but there's taking the piss and then there's taking the piss.

Of course if GW are still selling out then what do they care if I don't buy it. But I noted that the last wave of kits from GW didn't sell out except for the astartes support options (even at discounters that normally sell out immediately), so perhaps interest is waning.

Interest could be waning, but it could also be first signs of GW stock issues improving. I guess we will know when the next financials come in

I would expect interest to go down though, LI launch has not been without friction..

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well, I'm not buying it, so their profit from me went from something to zero If they have 60% profit margin, and they drop to 55% profit margin for adding an extra sprue their profit from a box would have gone from $30 to $27.50, but now it's gone from $30 to $0

A factor that is often disregarded and can have cascading effects as prices driving some players away might result in others dropping the game as well because they have no one to play with, even if they themselves were willing to stomach the cost.

From what I've seen in the UK, both the marine kits sold out pretty quickly and neither have returned yet even on the official website. The solar support & valdor appear to have been delivered in equal quantities and definitely weren't as popular as marines. Goblin Gaming has already increased the discount on those two to clear overstock, and I expect others to do the same before the end of the year.

For this wave it wouldn't shock me to see all the marine kits selling out quickly again, possibly with the basilisks too as there's a good reason to pick up multiples this time. That should leave the Arvus boxes on shelves for a while.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:
But,
we are talking here about >50% margin total for a product, and with such high values selling 2 frames per box is much more profitable for GW than any savings in material or work with 4 frames per box

Well, I'm not buying it, so their profit from me went from something to zero If they have 60% profit margin, and they drop to 55% profit margin for adding an extra sprue their profit from a box would have gone from $30 to $27.50, but now it's gone from $30 to $0

We all know GW are taking the piss with their prices, but there's taking the piss and then there's taking the piss.

Of course if GW are still selling out then what do they care if I don't buy it. But I noted that the last wave of kits from GW didn't sell out except for the astartes support options (even at discounters that normally sell out immediately), so perhaps interest is waning.

Yeah as long as they sell everything the strategy of making more profit is not give better value the get more costumers or grow the community but increase the profit margin
You not buying at that price but others will is still more profit for GW than decreasing prices to sell stock they don't have

GW wants a fan-club that buys no matter what and allows "pirates" to exist because games need a minimum amount of people to make it work

GWs marketing and prices are the combined effects of seasonal collectable games, free to play multiplayer games, and mobile app games with sunken costs

You need a certain amount of people who play (or promote to collect) to get the game going (3D printers + Russian archives), keeping people switching in and out with seasons to get get fresh money in and to get excitement over doing the same thing again (Editions)
Than you create fictional value and let people impulse buy "discounts" that are none and because people already invested a huge amount they keep buying to justify previous investments

A single person not buying because a single box is too expensive simply means that person is not part of the target group anyway and can be ignored


Yet all this leads to the problem that small changes can have big effects, and there won't be a slow decrease over time but rather a collapse over night because if the people who play for "free" are gone because the game is not worth playing even for free, the others will be gone as well
(A reason why we see this "fight" on the internet about rules quality and how bad rules are fun for casuals, because if word goes round that a game is not worth the time, the people who spend a lot of money for "nothing" instead of having the promised value on the shelf crash with reality)

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:

(A reason why we see this "fight" on the internet about rules quality and how bad rules are fun for casuals, because if word goes round that a game is not worth the time, the people who spend a lot of money for "nothing" instead of having the promised value on the shelf crash with reality)

Omg you nailed it!! I have already seen this in one of the LI whatsapp groups I'm in. The people who spent craploads of money in the game justifying bad rules and/or praising an extremely poor system.

 tauist wrote:
I'm of the mind that the entire LI game doesnt make sense, unless you buy most of your stuff from a discounter and take your time with the purchases. The kits will take a few years to release anyways, buying a few kits now and then, instead of splurging on a massive shopping spree all at once. Like, if you collect your army now, you'll just end up having rubbish like too many predators and so on..

And speaking of the rules, my mind is first set on collecting a core force, and then playing with them using any edition I happen to fancy. For someone like me, the biggest appeal in LI are the models themselves.

I'd reckon three boxes of pods already gets you enough to start with. I'll be adding them one kit per month, or something like that. Just hope they can be magnetized so I can convert basic pods to deathstrorms and vice versa..

Does anyone happen to know how many infantry stands, Rhinos and Land Raiders came with the original 1st edition Space Marine? Per side (ie the total amount divided by two)? That's my first goalpost for the collection..

1st edition had two forces, each with 8 land raiders, 16 rhinos and 32 infantry stands

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kodos wrote:
But,
we are talking here about >50% margin total for a product, and with such high values selling 2 frames per box is much more profitable for GW than any savings in material or work with 4 frames per box

Well, I'm not buying it, so their profit from me went from something to zero If they have 60% profit margin, and they drop to 55% profit margin for adding an extra sprue their profit from a box would have gone from $30 to $27.50, but now it's gone from $30 to $0

We all know GW are taking the piss with their prices, but there's taking the piss and then there's taking the piss.

Yes I am in the same boat. I've bought a fair amount of official minis for this game (I want it to succeed, and stuff like the infantry is not a tough purchase as they are lovely minies)- I haven't gone to printers or proxy except in small minority of cases. But, yes the price for the drop pods are a piss take, and I think most people recognise it as that looking at social media. So I have got hold of an alternative for those.

leopard wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I'm of the mind that the entire LI game doesnt make sense, unless you buy most of your stuff from a discounter and take your time with the purchases. The kits will take a few years to release anyways, buying a few kits now and then, instead of splurging on a massive shopping spree all at once. Like, if you collect your army now, you'll just end up having rubbish like too many predators and so on..

And speaking of the rules, my mind is first set on collecting a core force, and then playing with them using any edition I happen to fancy. For someone like me, the biggest appeal in LI are the models themselves.

I'd reckon three boxes of pods already gets you enough to start with. I'll be adding them one kit per month, or something like that. Just hope they can be magnetized so I can convert basic pods to deathstrorms and vice versa..

Does anyone happen to know how many infantry stands, Rhinos and Land Raiders came with the original 1st edition Space Marine? Per side (ie the total amount divided by two)? That's my first goalpost for the collection..

1st edition had two forces, each with 8 land raiders, 16 rhinos and 32 infantry stands

Awesome, much obliged! Do you happen to know how the infantry stands were segmented (IIRC different coloured flags denoted TAC/DEV/ASSAULT ?) within those 32 stands?

the set I had was all black bases, however the book noted it was 8 stands for a tactical unit (four tactical & four support) then four for each of devastator and assault (later became six stand units).

the first run had different colour bases, I think it was pretty much eight in each of four colours for each army

Just curious about the repackaged Cerastus Knight Lancers, and their included terminals; has there been any changes?

leopard wrote:
the set I had was all black bases, however the book noted it was 8 stands for a tactical unit (four tactical & four support) then four for each of devastator and assault (later became six stand units).

the first run had different colour bases, I think it was pretty much eight in each of four colours for each army

sweet, so I'd need 4 stands of TACs, 4 stands of Support, 4 Assault, 4 Dev?

If that's correct, I should be good just by adding one more Astartes infantry kit to the pile..

I was skimming through a 1st edition rulebook last night, excited to jump back in! I'm a sucker for old rulesets with modern minis

Marine infantry is finally back in stock over at Wayland.

 tauist wrote:

leopard wrote:
the set I had was all black bases, however the book noted it was 8 stands for a tactical unit (four tactical & four support) then four for each of devastator and assault (later became six stand units).

the first run had different colour bases, I think it was pretty much eight in each of four colours for each army

sweet, so I'd need 4 stands of TACs, 4 stands of Support, 4 Assault, 4 Dev?

If that's correct, I should be good just by adding one more Astartes infantry kit to the pile..

I was skimming through a 1st edition rulebook last night, excited to jump back in! I'm a sucker for old rulesets with modern minis

1st is actually a decent game, takes a while to play with the detail but its good as you don't need massive forces for a good game

if you can find it "Codex: Titanicus" is worth grabbing as it brings in the orks, Eldar and IIRC Imperial Guard as well as titans

harder to get hold of are all the 1st edition army builders as they were only ever in white dwarf before 2nd came along and changed it all