Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello everyone, I am trying to get into completions and be competitive. I created the following Dark Angels Lions Blade formation base on a recommendation from a friend. I would very much like your guys opinion and input, thank you.

Core (1420 pts)
Battle Demi Company (700 pts)
- Assault Squad (150 pts) (drop pod)
- 4 x Assault with bolt pistol, chainsword, Eviscerator, 2x Flamer Jump packs
- Sergant Thunder Hammer

- Company Master (125 pts)
- Artificer Armour and Power sword

-Devastator Squad (drop pod) (170 pts)
- 2x Grav Cannon with Gravamp, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1 x Lascannon

- Tactical Squad (razorback) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun


Battle Demi Company (720 pts)
- Assault Squad (155 pts) (drop pod)
- 4 x Assault with bolt pistol, chainsword, Eviscerator, 2x Flamer Jump packs
- Sergant Thunder Hammer and combat shield

- Chaplain (130 pts)
- Jump pack, power fist and crozius arcanum

-Devastator Squad (drop pod) (180)
- 2x Grav Cannon with Gravamp, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1 x missile launcher with flakk

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

The Inner Circle (110 pts)
-Interrogator-Chaplain
- Crozius Arcanum

Auxillary ( 320 pts)
-Ravenwing Support Squadron (320 pts)
- Ravenwing Darkshroud (80 pts)
-Heavy bolter

- Ravenwing Land Speeders (240 pts)
- Ravenwing Land speeder (80 pts)
- Assault Cannon and Multi-melta

- Ravenwing Land Speeders (240 pts)
- Ravenwing Land speeder (80 pts)
- Assault Cannon and Multi-melta

- Ravenwing Land Speeders (240 pts)
- Ravenwing Land speeder (80 pts)
- Assault Cannon and Multi-melta

Any inputs would be greatly appreciated, this is my first draft for a competitive list for DA.

Rather than comment on everything, I'm just gunna pick out what I see as the prime things to change:

 The_Lion wrote:

- Assault Squad (150 pts) (drop pod)
- 4 x Assault with bolt pistol, chainsword, Eviscerator, 2x Flamer Jump packs
- Sergant Thunder Hammer

Ok, so they've taken a Drop Pod, but cannot embark upon it because they are Jump Infantry (only basic Infantry can embark without a special rule stating otherwise). The solution would be to either swap the DP for another Razorback (just deploy it on it's own and let it do it's thing) or drop the jump packs.
The second point on this unit would be my dislike of Eviscerators (it's a chainfist on a 1A model, but still costs a bomb), the sergeant will also get challenged-out by anything half-decent in combat. Without the Vet upgrade it's still an expensive ccw with only one or two attacks (if charging).

 The_Lion wrote:
- Company Master (125 pts)
- Artificer Armour and Power sword

What is this guy's job? Tanking shots for one of the Dev squads and providing some melee power in case they get charged by something? If that's the plan then he's good for it (maybe with a storm shield depending on AP2 meta saturation). The alternative would be adding him to one of the assault squads (either by adding a jump pack, or removing the jp's from the unit as suggested above), giving him the Thunder Hammer and downgrading the sergeant to just a chainsword / bp - that way you get more thunder hammer attacks for the same price, and the sarge gets to chump the first challenge issued.

 The_Lion wrote:
-Devastator Squad (drop pod) (170 pts)
- 2x Grav Cannon with Gravamp, 1x Heavy Bolter, 1 x Lascannon

Eugh, just... eugh.
(1) Don't mix-and-match weapons within a Dev squad if you can even slightly avoid it - The unit can only shoot a single target per turn, and doesn't want to waste firepower targeting enemies that aren't it's preferred target. Firing at a MC? HB wasted. Need to fire on the move? Las and HB wasted. Need to fire at a Ork mob on an objective? Grav wasted.
(2) Touching on one of the points from 1, a drop pod guarantees that the HB and Las will snapshot in the first turn. Grav at least is effective on the move.
(3) Only one ablative wound (and that loses you the Signum), consider some bare-bones marines to act as bullet catchers for your 49 point gav cannons. Can be mitigated by with the Company Master / Int Chappy, but still nice to have even then.

 The_Lion wrote:
-Interrogator-Chaplain
- Crozius Arcanum

Again, what's this guy's job?

Thank you so very much for your reply and I see your point on my list. How about this?

Core
Battle Demi Company
- Assault Squad
- 4 x Assault with bolt pistol, chainsword, 2x Flamer Jump packs
- Sergant bolt pistol and chainsword
- Company Master
- Artificer Armour, Jump pack, storm shield and thunder hammer

-Devastator Squad (razorback with heavy bolter)
- 4x Grav Cannon with Gravamp

- Tactical Squad (razorback with heavy bolter) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback with heavy bolter) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback with heavy bolter) (85 pts)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun


Battle Demi Company (720 pts)
- Assault Squad (155 pts)
- 4 x Assault with bolt pistol, chainsword, 2x Flamer Jump packs
- Sergant bolt pistol and chainsword
- Chaplain (130 pts)
- Jump pack, power fist and crozius arcanum

-Devastator Squad (razorback with heavy bolter)
- 4x Grav Cannon with Gravamp

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

- Tactical Squad (razorback)
- Boltguns and 1 plasma Gun

I took out the Interrogator-Chaplain because like you said whats his job and I really don't have one. Now since I have rearrange some of this I have gotten rid of the drop pods and replace them with razorback with heavy bolters. its now at 1785 points. Should I use some of those points to upgrade the weapons on the razorbacks?

Have you removed the Support Squadron? I assume it's still there simply because otherwise you'd have way more leftover points. You need at least one Auxillary choice for it to be a valid Lions Blade.

If you're sticking with Grav (and it's imba, so you probably should if you want to be competitive), then the drop pods for the Devs work (other heavy weapons would have to snap shot on the turn they disembark, but Grav still get normal ballistic because of Salvo). Otherwise another popular choice is 2 Grav cannons and a Rhino (for the 2 firepoints, drive-by-shootings style).
If you do go with drop pods (which is probably what I'd go for in that list), swap another razorback for a drop pod, meaning you have 3 in total - this means that 2 arrive automatically on turn 1.

Rest of the points (assuming you haven't dropped the Support Squadron) I'd spend adding bodies to the Dev squads (they're going to make people angry) and weapon upgrades on the razors.

You can keep the drop pods (they are free and objective secured in the lions blade) then you have the opportunity to drop them on objectives out of the gate. I would take as many free objective secured transports that I have models for.

I took out the Interrogator-Chaplain because like you said whats his job and I really don't have one.

Doesn't the lions blade require a captain and a chaplain?

themathes wrote:

You can keep the drop pods (they are free and objective secured in the lions blade) then you have the opportunity to drop them on objectives out of the gate. I would take as many free objective secured transports that I have models for.

I took out the Interrogator-Chaplain because like you said whats his job and I really don't have one.

Doesn't the lions blade require a captain and a chaplain?

interrogator doesnt count

You mention being competitive, so you should know that the Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is more competitive than the Lion's Blade.

Everything Quanar said is p good.

yes I still have the auxiliary attach and I am curious should I stick to the Darkshroud or swap it for Vengeance?

I will switch the Dev to drop pods. Thank you so very much for your input guys. This is my first competitive army I am building, I have a few Deathwing and Ravenwing so I will try to come up with a list with that later and for my BA army I have too. Just wanted to try this out first.

axisofentropy is the Gladius Strike Force more competitive? I think I will stick with the Lion's Blade since I am going to run a DA army, but however I will look more into that formation and see what I can do, thank you for the input!

 The_Lion wrote:
yes I still have the auxiliary attach and I am curious should I stick to the Darkshroud or swap it for Vengeance?

Absolutely, unequivocally, no-take-backsies, keep the Darkshroud. Land Speeders are AV10, 2HP vehicles, and their only save comes from having Jink or being obscured - as both of those are cover saves, we can increase them (or even get a 6+ in the open) by putting them near a Darkshroud for Stealth, whilst the Darkshroud gets Shrouded to increase it's own survivability.
The Support Squadron combines there two units into a single unit, and both Stealth and Shrouded are confer-to-unit special rules, and they stack with each other. Suddenly the land speeders have a 4+ cover save in the open (Stealth + Shrouded) 2-3+ if obscured, and can Jink for a 2+ re-rollable.

If your only save worth a darn is a Jink save, your opponent will pick some slightly-dangerous unit to suppress the speeders for the whole game, as you can't risk their paper-thin armour against anything but the most basic gun. This means most of the game you will be snapshot-ing with the unit, and they will struggle to make their points back.

With a 50% chance without jinking and standing in the open, your opponent would have to pour at least twice as much firepower at you to cause you to jink, and if you do almost all of those shots will be saved*.

Note that at least one ordinary speeder and the Darkshroud need to be alive for this to work, and that even then the Darkshroud doesn't get to add Stealth to it's save.

*Ignores Cover still rains on our parade here*

 The_Lion wrote:
axisofentropy is the Gladius Strike Force more competitive? I think I will stick with the Lion's Blade since I am going to run a DA army, but however I will look more into that formation and see what I can do, thank you for the input!

If making a full Battle Company a Gladius is almost strictly better - it gets more options (bikes instead of assault squads, dev cents instead of devs) whilst benefiting from the same main rules (Obj. Sec. and free transports). Grim Resolve only benefits you against armies that are going to charge you, whilst Chapter Tactics are versatile and affect more phases of the game. However, whilst Grim Resolve is more niche, it synergises very well with the Support Squadron.

 The_Lion wrote:
axisofentropy is the Gladius Strike Force more competitive? I think I will stick with the Lion's Blade since I am going to run a DA army, but however I will look more into that formation and see what I can do, thank you for the input!

If making a full Battle Company a Gladius is almost strictly better - it gets more options (bikes instead of assault squads, dev cents instead of devs) whilst benefiting from the same main rules (Obj. Sec. and free transports). Grim Resolve only benefits you against armies that are going to charge you, whilst Chapter Tactics are versatile and affect more phases of the game. However, whilst Grim Resolve is more niche, it synergises very well with the Support Squadron.

If you're getting started, the most important advice is to paint your space Marines your own color. Make up a chapter or pick one of the many successor chapter paint schemes. Then you can say "these are the _____ and they're a successor chapter to the _____". Then you can play them as dark Angels, ultramarines, white scars, or any other Chapter Tactics on any given day.

 The_Lion wrote:
Can the DA take those types of units such as dev cents? I am still learning the in's and out's of the game. I might have to rethink this army list and how I want to run my DA's.

Nope, DA don't get access to Centurions. If you really want to take them you can ally-in a detachment / formation from the Space Marine codex or, as Axis says, paint up your marines as a custom "successor chapter of whoever I feel like today", making a versatile collection.

 axisofentropy wrote:
You mention being competitive, so you should know that the Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is more competitive than the Lion's Blade.

Everything Quanar said is p good.

I disagree with this statement. Which one is better is highly dependent on the local meta... if there are a lot of assault-heavy armies (Space wolves and Daemons are the new hotness around here since the Wulfen book dropped) Lion's Blade gives a much better "doctrine" than vanilla marines... having much more powerful overwatch greatly increases your offensive firepower against those assault-centric lists.

The Gladius and the Lion's Blade are nearly identical other than that, except for a few minor differences (such as Lion's Blade not having access to centurions).

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
You mention being competitive, so you should know that the Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is more competitive than the Lion's Blade.

Everything Quanar said is p good.

I disagree with this statement. Which one is better is highly dependent on the local meta... if there are a lot of assault-heavy armies (Space wolves and Daemons are the new hotness around here since the Wulfen book dropped) Lion's Blade gives a much better "doctrine" than vanilla marines... having much more powerful overwatch greatly increases your offensive firepower against those assault-centric lists.

The Gladius and the Lion's Blade are nearly identical other than that, except for a few minor differences (such as Lion's Blade not having access to centurions).

Interesting, do you think a lot of users will play assault-heavy armies because of the Wulfen book? I know quiet a few people are playing Space Wolves, but what about against Tau who are not an assault army? Is the Lion's Blade a good formation to counter them? I know trying to go toe-to-toe in a shoot out is probably not the wise decision but maybe if I can get my assault marines in play I can do some damage.

 The_Lion wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
You mention being competitive, so you should know that the Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is more competitive than the Lion's Blade.

Everything Quanar said is p good.

I disagree with this statement. Which one is better is highly dependent on the local meta... if there are a lot of assault-heavy armies (Space wolves and Daemons are the new hotness around here since the Wulfen book dropped) Lion's Blade gives a much better "doctrine" than vanilla marines... having much more powerful overwatch greatly increases your offensive firepower against those assault-centric lists.

The Gladius and the Lion's Blade are nearly identical other than that, except for a few minor differences (such as Lion's Blade not having access to centurions).

Interesting, do you think a lot of users will play assault-heavy armies because of the Wulfen book? I know quiet a few people are playing Space Wolves, but what about against Tau who are not an assault army? Is the Lion's Blade a good formation to counter them? I know trying to go toe-to-toe in a shoot out is probably not the wise decision but maybe if I can get my assault marines in play I can do some damage.

Anybody trying to win an open-table shootout with Tau is gonna have a bad time. The Overwatch bonuses of the Lion's Blade definitely isn't going to be as useful as Tactical Doctrines of a regular Gladius in this case. But this is why I said it's dependent on the local meta... it's more of a rock, paper, scissors scenario.

Locally, I already have seen way more Wolf players and a few more Daemon players. The KDK book and the Wulfen supplement made daemons fairly popular in my area again, and I can't even tell you how many fething wulfen I see at tournaments lately. Last tournament I played in had at least 5 space wolf players, and that is out of maybe 20 people...

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 The_Lion wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
You mention being competitive, so you should know that the Space Marine Gladius Strike Force is more competitive than the Lion's Blade.

Everything Quanar said is p good.

I disagree with this statement. Which one is better is highly dependent on the local meta... if there are a lot of assault-heavy armies (Space wolves and Daemons are the new hotness around here since the Wulfen book dropped) Lion's Blade gives a much better "doctrine" than vanilla marines... having much more powerful overwatch greatly increases your offensive firepower against those assault-centric lists.

The Gladius and the Lion's Blade are nearly identical other than that, except for a few minor differences (such as Lion's Blade not having access to centurions).

Interesting, do you think a lot of users will play assault-heavy armies because of the Wulfen book? I know quiet a few people are playing Space Wolves, but what about against Tau who are not an assault army? Is the Lion's Blade a good formation to counter them? I know trying to go toe-to-toe in a shoot out is probably not the wise decision but maybe if I can get my assault marines in play I can do some damage.

Anybody trying to win an open-table shootout with Tau is gonna have a bad time. The Overwatch bonuses of the Lion's Blade definitely isn't going to be as useful as Tactical Doctrines of a regular Gladius in this case. But this is why I said it's dependent on the local meta... it's more of a rock, paper, scissors scenario.

Locally, I already have seen way more Wolf players and a few more Daemon players. The KDK book and the Wulfen supplement made daemons fairly popular in my area again, and I can't even tell you how many fething wulfen I see at tournaments lately. Last tournament I played in had at least 5 space wolf players, and that is out of maybe 20 people...

I see hmmmm I figure I will not win in a shooting match, so here is hoping I can get my Assault marines in CC. I might try to form a Deathwing and a Ravenwing Strike Force to counter my buddies who do play Tau, but I will stick with the Lion's Blade for competitions. I will look more into the Gladius and get the necessary models to switch formations if I have too.

Has anyone found a way to counter Tau using Dark Angels?

I play Ultramarines using a full Battle Company. My auxiliary support is 3 scout squads. I've easily handled Tau and Tau-dar.

FortheEmperor! wrote:
I play Ultramarines using a full Battle Company. My auxiliary support is 3 scout squads. I've easily handled Tau and Tau-dar.

What do you run in your Battle Company if you don't mind me asking?