Latest houserule update! (now includes a multi-formation detachment for neglected 7th ed. armies)

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**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Here they are, tell me what you think! I've received a lot of good feedback, and I've tried to change things a bit based on what has been said. The first section is all of my general houserules, the other sections are faction specific. I've tried to balance things out a bit, i am hoping this set-up will close the gap between books a bit.

Spoiler:

tyranids and genestealer cult

Spoiler:

astra militarum and militarum tempestus

Spoiler:

space marines, blood angels, spacewolves, and grey knights

Spoiler:

blood angels m.f.d.

Spoiler:

chaos space marines

Spoiler:

chaos daemons

Spoiler:

orks

Spoiler:

ork m.f.d.

Spoiler:

necrons

Spoiler:

tau empire

Spoiler:

Craftworld eldar

Spoiler:

dark eldar

Spoiler:

dark eldar m.f.d.

Spoiler:

harlequins

Spoiler:

imperial titans and knights

Spoiler:

Imperial armor “Doom of Mymeara”

Spoiler:

So, have at it! Anything you like? Anything you don't? updated to include units from imperial armour "Doom of Mymeara" second eddition. any unit with (corsair) written next to it will have the same point value between both profiles.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I'm sorry, did you add 100 points to the Necron Obelisk?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I didn't even see the other fixes to Necrons. You expect anyone to pay 150 for a Ghost Ark?

Seriously, the prices for the Necron stuff is absurd.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Isn't it a 9 hullpoint av14 all around superheavy vehicle that starts with a 3+ invul, lightning guns, a (admittedly weaker) it will not die that has a chance to instant kill flyers within 18"? How is not worth 400 points?
Also, the ghost ark is 13/13/11 av with 20 gauss shots comming off the side that gives back dead warriors and is open topped to allow them to fire with impunity. It is only 25 points above the wave serpent.

Did you look at the actual houserules section or just the eratta? You will see a lot of thing that show why the changes occurred...

**Slayer-Fan123**

The Obelisk is 6 HP, doesn't always have a 3++, and doesn't have clear firing arcs for its guns meaning it could have crap range as a whole. I'm definitely not the only one that thinks that it is worth 400 points. It is barely worth the 300 even with your errata.
The Ghost Ark can ONLY transport Warriors, is only firing 10 shots itself on one side, and is definitely not bringing back that many Warriors. It is fine at the cost it has.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

In my group the whole orb is a firing arc since it looks like it should be based on the design. Didn't think to include that in the rules sice we had agreed when the model came out. My bad on that. The 3++ might only be there before you decide to move it, but an av14 3++ is going to be VERY hard to bring down. Also, I thought it had the same hullpoints as the other big ship, if that isn't the case then I will go back and drop points.

As for the ghost arc, I know it can only transport warriors. It does however have 4 hullpoints that are very hard to remove now and will ignore almost half of all glancing hits thrown at it because of living metal. And bringing models that durable should cost something. I priced it at 20 points. Meaning that if you brought back 2 models in a whole game you made more than your points back. The ghost arc and doomsday arc appeared to only pay the price of a storm bolter for their flayer arrays, I had to increase their points simply due to the amount of shots they could lay down.

I used the same system to build every monster and vehicle listed here, the quantum shielding rule only cost half of what the normal price of av13 front and side would. I didn't even charge necrons anything for their living metal rule since their vehicle designed are so limited...

**Slayer-Fan123**

You mean your system that Perigrine broke and created a unit that has the value of -1 points?

**O'Whelk**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean your system that Perigrine broke and created a unit that has the value of -1 points?

Yeah, that one that our group uses to have sick fights between space marine-piloted gundams and my super-heavy kroot walker, the Mega-Ultra-Chicken.

One question: can you still glance a vehicle to death by getting multiple Immobilized results?

**Imateria**

Annotations in blue to avoid a giant quote pyramid.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Here they are, tell me what you think

Spoiler:

Houserules

General
• A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves may not be taken.A good change
• Destroyer weapons do not roll on the vehicle damage chart in addition to the Destroyer table against non superheavy vehicles. They do however count as a penetrating hit for all other rules purposes.Whats the point of this change?
• a "flipped" result on the thunderblitz table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.Kind of makes sense though you don't see a Thunderblitz move made often.
• An overrun result on the stomp table causes all models under the template to take a strength 10 ap2 hit with the instant death special rule.Another good change
• a kerr-smash result on the stomp table causes a glancing hit instead of a penetrating hit.A good change
• a "flipped" result on the stomp table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.A good change
• Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.I assume this applying to the Sgt upgrades, I like it.
• Custom units created with the V.D.R. may be used, but the stats should be run by your opponent and Tony beforehand for approval. VDR? I assume this is something separate you've created.
• Storm bolters may be fired as a heavy 3 weapon instead of assault 2. The heavy 3 option may not be used for snapshots. Why not just make them Assault 3?
• Monstrous Creatures only get cover if 25% obscured or more. A good change
• All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free if available. A good change
• Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit. I really don't like this. Either change the way cover works entirely or go from where it currently stands. This is a half arsed measure that just serves to nerf armies like Dark Eldar that rely heavily on cover.
• Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -2 penalty to their Ballistics skill. This replaces the normal benefit.As above.
• Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only) A good change
• Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit. I guess this makes sense given the earlier change to Stealth and Shrouded. Makes it increadibly powerful though, as if Tau needed a boost.
• Models with the relentless and slow and purposeful rules as well as all vehicles do not ignore the range penalty for moving and firing weapons with the salvo special rule Makes no sense and really nerfs Dark Eldar.
• Psychic power changes
• Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having failed a blind test, even if they would normally be immune. This replaces the normal benefit. Interesting change. It at first looks like it's made no difference but you can fire blast and template markers at an invisible unit now, nice.
• Psyckers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges Does this mean that in a unit of all Psykers that each model generates a Warp Charge dice? Good griefe thats a massive buff to Eldar, Grey Knights and Daemons.
• Witchfires that do not have a weapon profile do not roll to hit A good change
• Witchfires that have a weapon style profile automatically succeed but must only spend the minimum warpcharges needed to cast from their dice pool. Deny the witch is still used as normal A good change
• Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deepstrike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive.A good change
• monstrous creatures and walkers have a 9" base movement. A good change
• Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordinance weapons A good change
• Non superheavy walkers may add 2 to the maximum unit size listed in their entries unless they are unique units. All walkers may add 2 to their attack profile. Codexes released from the necron codex and after do not gain this benefit. A good change
• Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures Not sure on this one. I think for Poison a flat -1 to their wound roll would be better. I have a strong dislike for the Sniper rule all round so it's hard to know what to think on that.
• Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+ A good change
• Super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures that use the “smash” ability to trade their attacks for a single attack treat that single attack as strength D instead of the normal benefits Makes sense for Gargantuans since most are around S10 already, but I didn't know SHW had Smash, was that something I missed, or is it the fact that Knights can have S D means most people ignore it anyway?
• If a superheavy vehicle or gargantuan monstrous creature is a transport, it is always considered an assault transport. A good change for the Harridan but I'm not sure this should apply across the board.
• Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
• Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result A good change
• Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal A good change
• If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport. Why?
• glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hullpoints.A bad change if it's not going to go with a more comprehensive reworking of the codecies, there are some armies out there that rely heavily on Haywire for anti tank.
• grav weaponry causes a glancing hit on a roll of 6 intead of an immobilised result. A good change
• Ordinance weapons cause d3 wounds to monstrous creatures instead of one on any unsaved wound. A good change
• When an ap1 weapon causes an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, it may immediately roll to wound again. The second wound may not cause further to wound rolls A good change
• if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+ This is either a typo or really stupid as it will only ever come into play on WS6 vs 2 and WS9 vs 3.

And here is an eratta, it includes rule and point value changes for units based on faction. I don't have access to all the codexes yet, but I am working towards having every army in the game updated in the near future!

I've annotated for the armies I'm most familier with.

Spoiler:

Eratta
Tyranids
• Tyranid prime has an additional wound added to it's profile. It may take wings (changing its type to jump infantry) for 10 points.Kind of helps, though not by much.
• Models that have the instinctive behavior rule that are within Range of a synapse creature gain a +1 to feel no pain (6+ feel no pain if they did not already have the rule) A good change
• The Swarmlord is a Lord of War and grants the swarmleader benefit to all models within 18” The Swarmleader change is excellent, but moving him to Lord of War when there are no cheap HQ options is a bad idea, particualrly since it has no real extra buffs to make it worth the 285pts.
• Gene stealers have stealth. genestealers may add hit and run for 1 point per model. scything talons are only 2 points per model. A good change
• Shadows in the warp cause all enemy psykers to manifest psychic powers at a -1 penalty (normally 5+) in addition to the penalty to Leadership. A good change
• Pyrovores breath weapon gains the torrent special rule Not really needed, how about dropping the cost to 35ppm and upping the squad size to 5?
• Monstrous biocannons have their point costs changed to the following: twinlinked devourer with brainleach worms: 25 points. Twin linked deathspitter: same. Stranglethorn cannon: 10 points. Heavy venom cannon: 15 points TW Devourers are badly overcosted here, the other are OK.
• Hive tyrants point total raises to 185 points Catagorically did not need a nerf, the HT is spammed due to a lack of good options elswhere in the codex, not due to being too good for his points which when they are 235pts each with wings and 2 sets of TWD with no ivuln means it's probably about right. Combined with your weapon changes a Flyrant with TWD is now nearly 300pts, absolutely rediculous.
• Old one eye is now 140 points Maybe a bit too much of a price drop given the increase to mobility
• Tervigon becomes 155 points A good change
• Haruspex becomes 120 points A good change, though given the role it's supposed to play maybe a boost in the number of attacks would be good as well.
• Harpy becomes 150 points Why make a unit that people already consider inferior to the Hive Crone more expensive?
• Hive crone stays the same Good, there's no real need to change them
• Carnifex becomes 90 points A good change
• Trygon becomes 170 Doesn't remotely go far enough, the Trygon already suffers from lacking any real role other than being a more expensive and weaker Carnifex with Deep Strike
• Trygon prime becomes 205 points See above.
• Mawlock becomes 140 points It was already 140pts
• Exocrine becomes 105 points A good change
• Tyrannofex becomes 105 points and the upgrade to rupture cannon only costs 5 points A good change
• Barbed hierodule: 477 points Doesnt go far enough
• Harridan: 644 points Doesnt go far enough
• Hierophant biotitan: the titanfield becomes a 3+ invul save A good change, though still not even remotely close to being worth 1000pts.

Eldar
• Eldar jetbikes only give a 4+ armor save A good change, should make it so that their weapon optins are for 1 in 3 again as well.
• Scatterlasers have a 24” range A good change, the other option I would have looked at is changing them to S5.
• Eldar missile launchers have a 36” range Why?
• Warp Spiders may only use their flicker jump special rules once per player turn and may not use it against overwatch. A good change
• The warlock conclave does not generate warp charges based on its mastery level. With you seemingly changing it so that Psyker units generate warp charges for every model, this unit is now far too powerful.
• the aspect warrior host may not have multiple of the same aspect, and only recieve the bonus to ws/bs when within 12" of another unit from the same formation. A bad change, if I want to run a close combat oriented Aspect Host I've now got to take a throwaway unit because Shining Spears aren't worth their points.
• wraithguard are slow and purposeful unless joined by a psyker. Kind of fluffy I guess but in practice will make almost no difference.
• Change the bladestorm rule to the following “whenever a weapon with this special rule rolls a 6 to hit, roll an additional attack. These extra attacks may generate further attacks. This benefit doesn’t apply to snapshots.” A good change
• eldar titan holofields only affect ranged attacks. A good change
• Waveserpent 125 Why? They're pretty expensive as transports already and since the change to the Serpent Shield they don't blow away other armies like they used to anyway.
• Crimson hunter 135 As arguably the most effective anti flyer jet fighter in the game, especially in the Crimson Death formation, I don't think they needed a price drop.
• Vyper 40 Already is 40pts
• Hemlock wraithfighter 185 Already is 185pts
• Falcon 140 bs move, should be cheaper not more expensive.
• Fireprism 125 Already 125
• Nightspinner 100 Yet another unit where you haven't changed their points cost, are these all typo's?
• War walker 60See above
• wraithlord 120See above
• wraithknight (wraithcannons) 380A good change
• wraithknight (“sword and board”) 425 Maybe a bit much
• wraithknight (suncannon) 360A good change
• avatar of khaine 210 Neeed a points drop, not increase.
• Phantom titan: 1050 points and may add phantom pulsars (424 each) phantom D-cannon (330 each), or the phantom ccw (170) You just dropped 600pts off the cost of a Phantom. What on earth for?
• Revenant titan: 950 points Might have needed to go a bit further.

Dark Eldar
• Hellions can use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase. Utterly useless, Hellions don't lack for speed and no one gives a toss about S3 HoW. Does absolutely noething to fix their lack of attacks or survivability.
• Wyches get their agile invulnerable save during the assault phase, (not just the combat sub phase) and may disembark from transports that moved cruising speed as if they had moved combat speed. A good change
• Units equipped with combat drugs count the turn as being one higher on the power from pain table
• If an hq unit with the independent character rule has the option for a venom as a dedicated transport, the venom gains the “chariot” type and has their transport capacity reduced to 1. (invulnerable saves purchased/ used by the character do not confer to the transport) I can't for the life of me see the point to this.
• Succubi and archons may take a reaver jetbike for 15 points. A good change
• Dark lances are a free upgrade for disintegrator cannons whenever available as an option. And you just devalued the Disintegrator for no reason whatsoever.
• Named characters from the 5th edition codex may be used for the point totals listed with the following changes. Great to have them back, but this isn't 5th edition anymore so the points values may need to be changed.
• Asdrubael Vect: has the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait and an additional roll on any warlord trait table in the BRB
• Lady Malys: roll twice on the warlord trait table in the dark elder codex
• Duke Ssliscus: has the towering arrogance warlord trait. He also grants a reroll for scatter for any venom, raider, or ravager that enters play from deepstrike reserves
• Baron Sarthonix: has the soul thirst warlord trait and doesn’t change the position of hellions in the force organization chart
• Raider 60 Didn't need the points increase.
• Venom 60 Didn't need the points increase.
• Razorwing jetfighter 110 A good change
• Ravager 100 A good change
• Voidraven bomber 140 Still far too expensive
• Talos pain engine 115 Didn't really need to be made cheaper
• Chronos parasite engine 90 A good change

Overall most of these changes are worthless and don't really help out the DE.

Harlequins
• Starweaver 70 A good change
• Voidweaver 70 A good change

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Imateria wrote:
Annotations in blue to avoid a giant quote pyramid.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Here they are, tell me what you think

Spoiler:

Houserules

General
• A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves may not be taken.A good change
• Destroyer weapons do not roll on the vehicle damage chart in addition to the Destroyer table against non superheavy vehicles. They do however count as a penetrating hit for all other rules purposes.Whats the point of this change?
• a "flipped" result on the thunderblitz table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.Kind of makes sense though you don't see a Thunderblitz move made often.
• An overrun result on the stomp table causes all models under the template to take a strength 10 ap2 hit with the instant death special rule.Another good change
• a kerr-smash result on the stomp table causes a glancing hit instead of a penetrating hit.A good change
• a "flipped" result on the stomp table causes a penetrating hit at ap1 instead of the automatic explodes result listed.A good change
• Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.I assume this applying to the Sgt upgrades, I like it.
• Custom units created with the V.D.R. may be used, but the stats should be run by your opponent and Tony beforehand for approval. VDR? I assume this is something separate you've created.
• Storm bolters may be fired as a heavy 3 weapon instead of assault 2. The heavy 3 option may not be used for snapshots. Why not just make them Assault 3?
• Monstrous Creatures only get cover if 25% obscured or more. A good change
• All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free if available. A good change
• Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit. I really don't like this. Either change the way cover works entirely or go from where it currently stands. This is a half arsed measure that just serves to nerf armies like Dark Eldar that rely heavily on cover.
• Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -2 penalty to their Ballistics skill. This replaces the normal benefit.As above.
• Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only) A good change
• Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit. I guess this makes sense given the earlier change to Stealth and Shrouded. Makes it increadibly powerful though, as if Tau needed a boost.
• Models with the relentless and slow and purposeful rules as well as all vehicles do not ignore the range penalty for moving and firing weapons with the salvo special rule Makes no sense and really nerfs Dark Eldar.
• Psychic power changes
• Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having failed a blind test, even if they would normally be immune. This replaces the normal benefit. Interesting change. It at first looks like it's made no difference but you can fire blast and template markers at an invisible unit now, nice.
• Psyckers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges Does this mean that in a unit of all Psykers that each model generates a Warp Charge dice? Good griefe thats a massive buff to Eldar, Grey Knights and Daemons.
• Witchfires that do not have a weapon profile do not roll to hit A good change
• Witchfires that have a weapon style profile automatically succeed but must only spend the minimum warpcharges needed to cast from their dice pool. Deny the witch is still used as normal A good change
• Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deepstrike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive.A good change
• monstrous creatures and walkers have a 9" base movement. A good change
• Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordinance weapons A good change
• Non superheavy walkers may add 2 to the maximum unit size listed in their entries unless they are unique units. All walkers may add 2 to their attack profile. Codexes released from the necron codex and after do not gain this benefit. A good change
• Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures Not sure on this one. I think for Poison a flat -1 to their wound roll would be better. I have a strong dislike for the Sniper rule all round so it's hard to know what to think on that.
• Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+ A good change
• Super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures that use the “smash” ability to trade their attacks for a single attack treat that single attack as strength D instead of the normal benefits Makes sense for Gargantuans since most are around S10 already, but I didn't know SHW had Smash, was that something I missed, or is it the fact that Knights can have S D means most people ignore it anyway?
• If a superheavy vehicle or gargantuan monstrous creature is a transport, it is always considered an assault transport. A good change for the Harridan but I'm not sure this should apply across the board.
• Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
• Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result A good change
• Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal A good change
• If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport. Why?
• glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hullpoints.A bad change if it's not going to go with a more comprehensive reworking of the codecies, there are some armies out there that rely heavily on Haywire for anti tank.
• grav weaponry causes a glancing hit on a roll of 6 intead of an immobilised result. A good change
• Ordinance weapons cause d3 wounds to monstrous creatures instead of one on any unsaved wound. A good change
• When an ap1 weapon causes an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, it may immediately roll to wound again. The second wound may not cause further to wound rolls A good change
• if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+ This is either a typo or really stupid as it will only ever come into play on WS6 vs 2 and WS9 vs 3.

And here is an eratta, it includes rule and point value changes for units based on faction. I don't have access to all the codexes yet, but I am working towards having every army in the game updated in the near future!

I've annotated for the armies I'm most familier with.

Spoiler:

Eratta
Tyranids
• Tyranid prime has an additional wound added to it's profile. It may take wings (changing its type to jump infantry) for 10 points.Kind of helps, though not by much.
• Models that have the instinctive behavior rule that are within Range of a synapse creature gain a +1 to feel no pain (6+ feel no pain if they did not already have the rule) A good change
• The Swarmlord is a Lord of War and grants the swarmleader benefit to all models within 18” The Swarmleader change is excellent, but moving him to Lord of War when there are no cheap HQ options is a bad idea, particualrly since it has no real extra buffs to make it worth the 285pts.
• Gene stealers have stealth. genestealers may add hit and run for 1 point per model. scything talons are only 2 points per model. A good change
• Shadows in the warp cause all enemy psykers to manifest psychic powers at a -1 penalty (normally 5+) in addition to the penalty to Leadership. A good change
• Pyrovores breath weapon gains the torrent special rule Not really needed, how about dropping the cost to 35ppm and upping the squad size to 5?
• Monstrous biocannons have their point costs changed to the following: twinlinked devourer with brainleach worms: 25 points. Twin linked deathspitter: same. Stranglethorn cannon: 10 points. Heavy venom cannon: 15 points TW Devourers are badly overcosted here, the other are OK.
• Hive tyrants point total raises to 185 points Catagorically did not need a nerf, the HT is spammed due to a lack of good options elswhere in the codex, not due to being too good for his points which when they are 235pts each with wings and 2 sets of TWD with no ivuln means it's probably about right. Combined with your weapon changes a Flyrant with TWD is now nearly 300pts, absolutely rediculous.
• Old one eye is now 140 points Maybe a bit too much of a price drop given the increase to mobility
• Tervigon becomes 155 points A good change
• Haruspex becomes 120 points A good change, though given the role it's supposed to play maybe a boost in the number of attacks would be good as well.
• Harpy becomes 150 points Why make a unit that people already consider inferior to the Hive Crone more expensive?
• Hive crone stays the same Good, there's no real need to change them
• Carnifex becomes 90 points A good change
• Trygon becomes 170 Doesn't remotely go far enough, the Trygon already suffers from lacking any real role other than being a more expensive and weaker Carnifex with Deep Strike
• Trygon prime becomes 205 points See above.
• Mawlock becomes 140 points It was already 140pts
• Exocrine becomes 105 points A good change
• Tyrannofex becomes 105 points and the upgrade to rupture cannon only costs 5 points A good change
• Barbed hierodule: 477 points Doesnt go far enough
• Harridan: 644 points Doesnt go far enough
• Hierophant biotitan: the titanfield becomes a 3+ invul save A good change, though still not even remotely close to being worth 1000pts.

Eldar
• Eldar jetbikes only give a 4+ armor save A good change, should make it so that their weapon optins are for 1 in 3 again as well.
• Scatterlasers have a 24” range A good change, the other option I would have looked at is changing them to S5.
• Eldar missile launchers have a 36” range Why?
• Warp Spiders may only use their flicker jump special rules once per player turn and may not use it against overwatch. A good change
• The warlock conclave does not generate warp charges based on its mastery level. With you seemingly changing it so that Psyker units generate warp charges for every model, this unit is now far too powerful.
• the aspect warrior host may not have multiple of the same aspect, and only recieve the bonus to ws/bs when within 12" of another unit from the same formation. A bad change, if I want to run a close combat oriented Aspect Host I've now got to take a throwaway unit because Shining Spears aren't worth their points.
• wraithguard are slow and purposeful unless joined by a psyker. Kind of fluffy I guess but in practice will make almost no difference.
• Change the bladestorm rule to the following “whenever a weapon with this special rule rolls a 6 to hit, roll an additional attack. These extra attacks may generate further attacks. This benefit doesn’t apply to snapshots.” A good change
• eldar titan holofields only affect ranged attacks. A good change
• Waveserpent 125 Why? They're pretty expensive as transports already and since the change to the Serpent Shield they don't blow away other armies like they used to anyway.
• Crimson hunter 135 As arguably the most effective anti flyer jet fighter in the game, especially in the Crimson Death formation, I don't think they needed a price drop.
• Vyper 40 Already is 40pts
• Hemlock wraithfighter 185 Already is 185pts
• Falcon 140 bs move, should be cheaper not more expensive.
• Fireprism 125 Already 125
• Nightspinner 100 Yet another unit where you haven't changed their points cost, are these all typo's?
• War walker 60See above
• wraithlord 120See above
• wraithknight (wraithcannons) 380A good change
• wraithknight (“sword and board”) 425 Maybe a bit much
• wraithknight (suncannon) 360A good change
• avatar of khaine 210 Neeed a points drop, not increase.
• Phantom titan: 1050 points and may add phantom pulsars (424 each) phantom D-cannon (330 each), or the phantom ccw (170) You just dropped 600pts off the cost of a Phantom. What on earth for?
• Revenant titan: 950 points Might have needed to go a bit further.

Dark Eldar
• Hellions can use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase. Utterly useless, Hellions don't lack for speed and no one gives a toss about S3 HoW. Does absolutely noething to fix their lack of attacks or survivability.
• Wyches get their agile invulnerable save during the assault phase, (not just the combat sub phase) and may disembark from transports that moved cruising speed as if they had moved combat speed. A good change
• Units equipped with combat drugs count the turn as being one higher on the power from pain table
• If an hq unit with the independent character rule has the option for a venom as a dedicated transport, the venom gains the “chariot” type and has their transport capacity reduced to 1. (invulnerable saves purchased/ used by the character do not confer to the transport) I can't for the life of me see the point to this.
• Succubi and archons may take a reaver jetbike for 15 points. A good change
• Dark lances are a free upgrade for disintegrator cannons whenever available as an option. And you just devalued the Disintegrator for no reason whatsoever.
• Named characters from the 5th edition codex may be used for the point totals listed with the following changes. Great to have them back, but this isn't 5th edition anymore so the points values may need to be changed.
• Asdrubael Vect: has the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait and an additional roll on any warlord trait table in the BRB
• Lady Malys: roll twice on the warlord trait table in the dark elder codex
• Duke Ssliscus: has the towering arrogance warlord trait. He also grants a reroll for scatter for any venom, raider, or ravager that enters play from deepstrike reserves
• Baron Sarthonix: has the soul thirst warlord trait and doesn’t change the position of hellions in the force organization chart
• Raider 60 Didn't need the points increase.
• Venom 60 Didn't need the points increase.
• Razorwing jetfighter 110 A good change
• Ravager 100 A good change
• Voidraven bomber 140 Still far too expensive
• Talos pain engine 115 Didn't really need to be made cheaper
• Chronos parasite engine 90 A good change

Overall most of these changes are worthless and don't really help out the DE.

Harlequins
• Starweaver 70 A good change
• Voidweaver 70 A good change

Ok, lot of stuff there. Any time a price is listed that didn't change I simply didn't have the codex next to me when I was writing out this list. So I put the points down I had written in case they were different.

[

Spoiler:

[/spoiler]for dark eldar, the hellions also have combat drugs and a decent ranged weapon. They are built for versatility, not pure melee. The addition of venoms as chariots was mostly to add more survivability to some characters and to fit a cool theme. The idea of a succubus rolling around in her personal death machine laughing at overwatch and slamming people with the hull of her vehicle as she danced around on deck slicing heads off at will was far too cool to not give mechanics for. Disintegrators are the same price as bright/dark lances and starcannons. Volume of fire is more important for anti heavy infantry fire power than the +1 strength. Since this rule set will have more value added to things like terminators and monstrous creatures on foot those shots won't go to waste.[/spoiler]

In answer to the immobilized results, yes, you can eventually kill a vehicle with glances. It takes more luck and time.

Also, the designs rules have been updated since then. There is no free speed level, and you can't just throw a bag of peas on the table.

**Imateria**

How on earth did you work all that out with the Hive Tyrant? One thing you haven't taken into consideration is that when you add wings to it it's Synapse becomes far less useful, it's far too easy to outdistance the rest of the army turn 1 and provide Synapse to nothing at all completely changing the role of the Tyrant from lynchpin holding the army together to spearhead attacker. If Heavy Bolters are more than 15 points then they are massively overcosted, but you can't tell me that a S6, Assault 6 gun with no AP is worth 25pts. Yes, they're very good at stripping hull points quickly off light and even medium vehicles but in the current meta that has moved towards Monstrous Creatures it's value is much less since there's no way to get through the armour. I could see it at 20 pts being Twin Linked but never 25.

You never touched the Hive Crone, which is 155pts base, but instead changed the Harpy, a T5 flyer with low BS and only blast weapons available, from 135pts to 150. Thats a pretty hefty use of the nerf bat for a model that only has limited use compared with the Hive Crone already.

That makes Trygons what, an expensive delivery system for Termegants and Hormagaunts that might not be around to use the tunnel, especially given that the Trygon has to come in first the turn beforehand anyway. If you could bring Trygons on Turn 1 they might be worth it but as things stand the Tyrannofex, Exocrine, Mawloc and Carnifex are all much more usefull options in Heavy Support.

I had no problem with you increasing the save from 3+ to 4+, given that Eldar jet bikes normally give a +1 to the armour save it doesn't make sense that Windriders gained a +2. What I was pointing to was the fact that all bikes can take heavy weapons, whilst for Dark Eldar (and the previous codex I believe) it was 1 in 3 could take them. The problem with the change to the EML is that it wasn't worth bothering with in the first place, and it's now an even worse option given that you haven't changed the points for it (for 25pts no one ever takes it over the Bright Lance, Pulse Laser, Scatter Laser, Shurikan Cannon or Starcannon, all of which are cheaper and more effective).

I'm not sure where you got the idea that +1WS is worth much of anything to most Aspect Warriors. At S3 they're struggling to hurt much of anything in close combat on less than a 5+ and completely lack any AP (I'm assuming we're talking about anything other than Striking Scoprions and Howling Banshees, being dedicated close combat units) so getting through armour isn't much good. The few armies that do have T3 infantry also tend to have lower weapon skill as well so going from WS 4 to 5 makes no difference to them. The only place it will help is if fighting against Eldar Guardians or Dark Eldar Kabalites, if you're throwing the likes of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Swooping Hawks into combat against other infantry then your just trying to tie them up and +1WS will make no difference to that.

Yes, Shining Spears are much more survivable than Windriders thanks to Heavy Aspect Armour and Skilled Rider but they are increadibly specialised, meant to kill things when charging into combat where they have all their strength bonuses. The problem here is that as long as Windriders have full access to all their weapons they'll be much more effective than Spears at taking out, well everything at range, and the glaring lack of Hit and Run means that if Spears don't kill their target on the charge they'll be struggling to finish off the fight as they drop back down to S3, and being only +2S on the charge is a distinct possibility. It's ironic that the considerably cheaper Dark Eldar Reaver Jet Bikes with 2 Cluster Caltrops do the same job considerably better (6 Reavers with 2 Cluster Caltrops (D6 S6 Hammer of Wrath per CC) with Rending from their Blade Vanes are 126pts, 6 Shining Spears are 150pts).

I take it you've never played Dark Eldar, if you had you'd know Hellions are pure junk. Yes, they have Combat Drugs, but half the results on the table are worthless more often than not and are pretty much all close combat oriented. They do have good shooting thanks to the Splinter Pods but unless your running a pure Wych Cult army and don't want any Venoms it's going to waste, they can only really dish out the damage in shooting when run as a squad of 10, which is a silly thing to do because thats 130pts for a large squad of T3 models with a 6+ armour save that being Jump Infantry cant benefit from the protection of vehicles with jink and have to take dangerous terrain tests every time they go into cover. They are going to die, very easily and quickly. That leaves us with close combat where they're not bad thanks to +1S and the combat drugs, at least as long as you didn't roll up for +1 Leadership or Initiative which will have virtually no effect, but they are seriously lacking in attacks due to having a 2 handed weapon and being AP5 doesn't help much with their damage output either. The problem has never been their ability in close combat, though it could stand to be better, but their complete lack of survivability, giving them S3 HoW all the time does nothing to fix this and will still see nobody ever using them.

I still really don't see any point to making Venoms chariots for Haemonculi, Archons and Succubi. An Haemonculus is tougher than regular Eldar to begin with but serves mostly as a force multiplier for other units thanks to his +1 on the Power From Pain table and the fact that Grotuesques at Ld 3 need a babysitter means you'll be putting an Haemonculus with them. Archons are lacking in usefulness due to a lack of wargear but are most useful when joined with a squad for shooting. A Succubus on her own just doesn't have enough attacks to be worth that, she'll end up locked in combat usually. The most usefull thing I've found with her is to join up with Incubi, hunting elite infantry with their +1S, AP2 weapons.

Do you know what will really happen? A Ravager with tripple Dark Lances and Night Shields will be 115pts compared to the current 140, people will just use the points saved to buy anothe Venom for an extra 12 Poison 4+ shots. Dark Eldar don't normally care too much about armour, we just focus on a single target and drown them in so many poison shots that statistically you can't make enough saves. The only time people would ever consider taking Disintegrators is if they're facing a lot of 2+ armour saves, like Grey Knights or Deathwing, largely because the weapon suffers from being S5 instead of the S6 it really should be. The Starcannons you meantioned are also overpriced, there's no way on earth they should cost 20pts each with such a limited role.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

A strength 6 assault 6 no ap gun isn't worth 25 points. But a twin linked one is. As for the Harpy, her blast weapons mean her ballistic skill has less of a penalty to accuracy. Considering the fact that she is still a highly mobile heavy weapons platform that can fly away if things get too hot give it a significant advantage over the Hive crone. You never actually have to get close to things to fire on them. For the trygons, they are cheaper than the codex, and I still saw them occasionally in battlereports and in my home games. Having the trigon prime in particular drop in close and guarantee my lesser chance at getting psychic powers off and then you loading on my light vehicles/ bikes has ALWAYS been a problem. Combine that with how hard it is to run away from them now and suddenly a mixed you it army of monsters and horde ACTUALLY scares people.

As for the host, hitting a dreadnaught or any other walker in the game really on a 3+ with swooping hawks BEFORE they hit back most of the time makes a serious difference. Taking a unit that hits on a 3 then wounds on a 5 makes them the exact same probability to wound a model as hitting and wounding on 4s. That means even the ranged aspect warriors are hitting meqs as if they were also meqs. Gaining the math equivalent of +1 strength for free is going to be good for them until the enemy hits toughness 7.

I play eldar undivided. Craftworld, dark, harlequins, and corsairs. Having an archon take str5 hits on his shadow field and the weaker volume of fire shots on his venom does a lot for survivability. Since you wouldn't take a venom if you were joining to a unit of grotesques anyway (they don't fit) there is no reason to not include the option for them. Hellions are bully units and objective grabbers. Send them after light infantry and giving them hammer of wrath all the time GIVES them an extra attack that can't miss at init 10. Combine that with the distance covered by their jump classification and them starting out with feel no pain 6+ to help with survival and you will see them provide more than a distraction on the table.

With venoms being slightly more expensive, they shouldn't be there to provide all of your fire support needs. Combine them with the dark lance ravagers being cheaper and suddenly your army isn't actually hurting for effective units. Adding the chariot option gives you their enhanced hammer of wrath and speed making it harder to tarpit them solo and giving you units who aren't affraid to soak up overwatch.

The houserules open up options, just don't focus on keeping to a certain power build.

**Imateria**

We'll agree to disagree on the points value of TW Devourers, but I still think 25 is too much especially when you've jacked up the cost of the unit most likely to take them. A 50 point price hike for one of the very few decent units in the codex is a big slap in the face to Tyranid players.

Blast weapons are massively innacurate thanks to the 2D6 scatter on a 3" marker (Heavy Venom Cannon), at BS3 statistically it's going to hit fewer times than an Assault/Heavy weapon fired at the same BS. Admittedly the Stranglethorn Cannon being Larg Blast mitigates that somewhat and both being Twin Linked goes a long way but thats not it's biggest problem.I thnk you really missed the point where the Nid flyers are T5, this means that flashlights can force them to jink and suddenly those blast weapons don't have any accuracy because they can't shoot, rendering the Harpy useless. This is the reason why no one ever takes them outside of the Flyer formations from Leviathan, the Crone with it's S8, AP2 Vector Strike and 4 Haywire Tentaclid missiles is a far more useful anti tank unit, something Nids lack badly, and the Drool Cannon means it can be effective against infantry if needed.

I think I'd have to see a Trygon in action with these new rules to gage it's usefulness, looking at it too much has changed to say straight up whether it's going to be good or bad. However, nobody is ever going to be scared about Termegants, Gargoyls and Hormagaunts.

I'd completely forgot about the Swooping Hawks and their anti tank close combat ability. That does change things a bit and allowes for a close combat oriented Aspect Host with 3 different types of Aspect involved more viable, if a bit of a mono list. I think the problem there is that an army with so much ranged Strength D doesn't really care too much about doing the business in close combat.

I guess I just don't like the idea of Chariots in 40K, outside of Daemons they just feel kind of weird to me. I'll point out that you would take a Venom if joining with a unit of Incubi or a Court of the Archon.

You must play in a very uncompetitive local meta where Hellions can be anything other than useless. As far as I'm concerned you haven't given me any reason to take a unit of Hellions over the far more useful Reavers, Razorwing, Scourges and even Beastpack. What really surprises me is that you gave them the ability to use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phases instead of giving them Jink, which is widely regarded amongst DE players as the most obvious upgrade to give them. Also thinking about it your change to Combat Drugs is completely unfluffy, the two are completely unrelated.

Increasing the cost of Venoms wont change that, they're still putting out 12 poison shots each per turn and with a squad of Kabalites or Trueborn in the back are still cheaper than a squad in a Raider (which you also increased the cost of) with more firepower. Heck the more I look the more it seems like you've shifted points around without actually changing anything. Wyches, Hellions, Bloodbrides and Wracks are still all bad and not worth taking (Wracks only ever get used thanks to the Scalpel Squadron formation) whilst the Voidraven still costs more than it's worth. Nothing you have done would change the type of lists I would generally run.

I really liked most of the house rules you put on the general rules, most of them made a lot of sense, but your Codex changes leave a lot to be desired. If you want to open up options you need to get the various units much more closely balanced but your changes to the various Eldar factions don't really seem to have done much, whilst I'm worried you may have actively nerfed Tyranids by increasing the cost of their most usefull unit without actually improving anything so a net change in the options of the codex has actually dropped, not increased.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Of course he plays in an uncompetitive area. He added 100 points to the Obelisk with terrible justifications.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

You only jink when something would ignore your save, so jinking flashlights wouldn't help you at all. With all the tyranid monsters being faster, you would also use the Harpy as a support assault unit more to utilise her screech ability.

The reason for the combat drugs bonus for power from pain is I see those taking it as comming into the fight in a tightened state of aggression. Since power from pain is now based on the violence surrounding them amplifying their combat ability, the idea that before the fight is joined all the wytch cult units being more riled up for the fight (possibly killing each other before leaving commoragh for the profit) made sense to me. Your list may not change, but you opponents will. That will cause a shift in your meta and your list may have to change to deal with theirs.

Slayer fan, I looked back at the obelisk and redid my math. It ends up being the same, but I decided I didn't like the way it's gravity pulse worked. So you will notice I changed it to give not only a better chance to drop flyers and fmcs, but it now also creates a zone of dangerous terrain for skimmers, jetbikes, and flying units to give it more versatility. Since strD in my games is toned down the likelihood of it being destroyed quickly drops significantly. Also, like it said, in my group we already came to the consensus that the orbs could fire from the entire ball because they look like they could. I didn't really think it counted as a houserule...

**eskimo**

The standard MC smash rule still leaves S6 MCs being prone to guranteed death versus a Dreadnought of any kind with PF- Unless you addressed that, i didn't see.

The Hive Tyrants points are wrong imo. Make him 150pts. Then make wings 60pts. Or something along those lines.

There's still endless Nid rules that are dumb and need addressing, but otherwise good work on the USRs, didn't read the other armies though.

**xlDuke**

Your ideas for Orks look okay in general, though they are just little fixes that don't change very much except allowing us to field a few more models due to price reductions. Cybork Bodies is nice with +1 to FNP but some additional wargear so HQ's and maybe Mega/Nobz can get an invulnerable save would be nice as well.

There's a few things that seem a bit off to me though; Trukks getting 5 points more expensive seems unnecessary - they were 35 points in the last codex, took a hit to the Ramshackle rule and become 30 points in the update, seems to fit nicely IMO. Kill Kanz at 40 points are still overcosted (by 10 points probably), they are only AV 11/11/10 with 2 HPs and have to pay 5 points for their best weapon. Warbuggies already cost 25 points, perhaps making them 20 points and 25 points for a Wartrakk would work - they are certainly worse than Deffkoptas and worth less points. You only lowered the codex Stompa's cost by 10 points, 760 is really too high for what you get but I'm not familiar enough with other SHW and GMC to suggest something more accurate with any conviction.

Good job so far, there's some interesting ideas in here.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Slayer fan, I looked back at the obelisk and redid my math. It ends up being the same, but I decided I didn't like the way it's gravity pulse worked. So you will notice I changed it to give not only a better chance to drop flyers and fmcs, but it now also creates a zone of dangerous terrain for skimmers, jetbikes, and flying units to give it more versatility. Since strD in my games is toned down the likelihood of it being destroyed quickly drops significantly. Also, like it said, in my group we already came to the consensus that the orbs could fire from the entire ball because they look like they could. I didn't really think it counted as a houserule...

The Obelisk ALREADY creates a dangerzone for Skimmers and Jetbikes. It still hasn't been worth the points.

Also, the Obelisk is STILL 6 HP. AV14 is nothing special to go through.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Eskimo, the primary weakness of Tyranids is heavy armor, heavy walkers in particular. Since the rules here basically let you take 3 carnifex for the price of two and the monster/walkers are all faster the chance to choose what fights what shouldn't be too difficult. As for the tyrant, they are a lynchpin unit with a vast array of abilities. If you took away his psyker levels, for example he would drop to about 135, or drop synapse and make him 145. The majority of his capabilities are based on his defense and special rules.

Xlduke, for the ork walkers, my main adjustment was to walkers in general, if you look at the main rules update you will see the addition of 2 extra attacks base and being able to have two more models per unit. Even at ws2 the killa kans are hitting most units on a 4+. The main difference for the stompa is other superheavies are more in line with points accross the board and a 6 on the destroyer table can no longer take it down in one shot. So even though other melee superheavies might hit first, they will rarely be able to keep the stompa from crushing them in return. Then there is also the fact it grants fearless and is an assault transport. Put three squads of three meganobz in there and hillarities ensue.

Slayer, av 14 is only negated in the current meta due to destroyer, grav, and strD. Since a 6 destroyer isn't a guaranteed kill, and grav/haywire only cause glances, which are only removing hullpoints on a 6 on the damage table your opponent will have to rely on high strength low ap weapons to actually kill it. The .main concern now is melta, but that is always a concern. Bubble wrap that and suddenly you have absolutely board control in regards to medium to light vehicles and all infantry. 10 str 7 shots with Tesla that is something that will make most people nervous to get near (unless they are running a crazy death star, but those are always going to take special consideration)

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Added more stuff (found some notes I had lost)

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

More point value changes, in particular some of the weaker forgeworld tanks as seen in I.perial armor apocalypse second edition (I know there was an update after, but I bought mine shortly before that and didn't want to shell out for another. I doubt their rules changed much though...)

Macharius: 270
Macharius vanquisher: 290
Macharius Vulcan: 350
Malkador: 185
Malkador annihilator: 220
Malkador defender: 255
Malkador infernus: same @275

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Changed a few things, added quite a bit of stuff to the orks section. Added point and stat changes for blood angels!

**Dakka Wolf**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Here they are, tell me what you think! I've received a lot of good feedback, and I've tried to change things a bit based on what has been said. The first section is all of my general houserules, the other sections are faction specific. I've tried to balance things out a bit, i am hoping this set-up will close the gap between books a bit.

Changes to u.s.r.s
Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -2 penalty to their Ballistics skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
(these two changes affect markerlights etc BEFORE they would cause wounds. so the sneakier units are actually harder to get a lock on to erase their cover saves)
Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit.
Ordnance weapons cause d3 wounds to monstrous creatures instead of one on any unsaved wound.
grav weaponry causes a glancing hit on a roll of 6 instead of an immobilised result.
Precision shots force their target to reroll any successful “look out sir!” attempts.
Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordnance weapons

Changes to the psychic phase
Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having failed a blind test, even if they would normally be immune (so they count as ws/bs1). This replaces the normal benefit.
Psykers without the psychic brotherhood special rule that are in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges
Witch Fires that do not have a weapon profile do not roll to hit
Witch Fires that have a weapon style profile automatically succeed but must only spend the minimum warp charges needed to cast from their dice pool. Deny the witch is still used as normal

Monstrous creature/ walker changes
Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deep strike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive. Also, a flying monstrous creature may assault the turn it changes flight mode from swooping to glide.
monstrous creatures and walkers have a 9" base movement. Monstrous creatures also only only receive a cover save if 25% obscured or more.

General rules
Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.
Storm bolters may be fired as a heavy 3 weapon instead of assault 2. The heavy 3 option may not be used for snapshots.
Vehicles are not limited in regards to shooting when performing a ram or tank shock action.
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free.
Smoke launchers may be used when the unit equipped with it is targeted. This replaces the normal benefit (still one use only)
If a piece of wargear increases the toughness of a model equipped, the model in question is still subject to instant death as if it were the original toughness (this means characters on a bike such as space marine captains are still susceptible to instant death from strength 8 weapons). Strength ratings that are changed are also taken into account for these instances. (thunderwolf cavalry, for example, are considered strength 9 when equipped with a thunder hammer or powerfist.)
If a unit is embarked in a transport and is subject to the “no escape” rule, the unit inside may use any invulnerable save available to the transport.
glancing hits on vehicles cause an unmodified roll on the vehicle damage table. penetrating hits are the only way to remove hull points.
When an ap1 weapon causes an unsaved wound to a monstrous creature, it may immediately roll to wound again. The second wound may not cause further to wound rolls
if a model has a weapon skill three times or better than the weapon skill of the unit they are targeting they hit on a 2+
if a strength rating is 4 higher than the toughness of it's target, it wounds automatically[/spoiler]

space marines, blood angels, spacewolves, anf grey knights
[spoiler]Space Marines
black templar crusader squads may be chosen whenever a formation requires a tactical marine squad.
A captain purchased in a formation may be upgraded to a chapter master.
Assault centurions are treated as having two flamers or two meltaguns as opposed to twin linked versions.
Centurion devastators are treated as having two heavy bolters or two lascannons as opposed to twin linked versions of these weapons.
Thunderhawk gunship: 588
Vindicator 95
Predator 75
Rhino 35
Land raider 255
Drop pod 40
Dreadnaught (4A base) 100
Razorback 55
Landspeeder 50
Landspeeder storm 60
Whirlwind 55
Land raider crusader 250
Land raider redeemer 245
Stormraven 240
Stormtalon 130
Hunter 75
Stalker 85
Ironclad dreadnaught 150

I know some Templar players who would be delighted by these changes, not keen on most of your vehicle priceings though.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

Space Wolves
Wolf Scouts gain stealth
Fenrisian wolves purchased as wargear for Space Wolf characters may embark in transports.
price adjustments
May not take the librarius psychic powers
Bjorn the fellhanded (5A base) 200
Murderfang (4A base) 135
Stormwolf 235
Stormfang 205

* I agree with the Wolf Scouts upgrade however you might want to consider price changes. Space wolves have a number of ways of re-rolling for reserves and auto entering reserve units, possibly counter-charge to boot, add that to their normal acute senses, counter attack and infiltrate Wolf Scouts with stealth & Infiltrate would have the power to move into cover in enemy territory and set up to be a major demolition unit. Potential for a guaranteed 2nd turn arrival, almost guaranteed edge deployment that kind of extra mobility will almost immediately put them in range of some serious destruction.
* I'd never noticed that about fen/cyber wolves in 7thed, I've been foot slogging them since the 7thed core rule-book because they usually die with the vehicle, they've usually had a paragraph explaining that they could go with their independent character wherever he goes...I wonder why it wasn't included this time...?
* I've never used the Librarius psychic powers so I wouldn't know what I'm missing.
* You kid right? Bjorn is currently rocking a close combat weapon with s10, ap2, master crafted, shred and four base attacks to make good on it, oh, and a heavy flamer. He also has free choices between some of the most brutal ranged weapons in the Space Wolves artillery or the option to splurge five points for a twin-linked Las plus he rocks a 5++ and the ability to grant you seize the initiative on a 5...I'd appreciate the extra attack but the price drop would never happen. Bjorn isn't over priced, he just doesn't have a place in most lists, he's too expensive to be a sacrificial dread and too slow to foot slog from your deployment zone. He might be interesting as a mid game drop to plant on an out of the way objective but that's a lot of firepower to be sitting in reserves.
* Murderfang is 135 points with 4 attacks base...
* I kind of agree with you but I'll hold off an opinion on the flyers until after the flyer faq rumours are confirmed or denied. The storm wolf will take a big hit if transports lose skyfire.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

With the wolf scouts, the normal scouts have all of those things plus chapter tactics and most of the time objective secured. The fact that the wolf scouts are 1 point more per model and elites warranted the change given. Make them elite versions while still doing the same job. As for Bjorn, he deserves to have all of that and get the slight price drop.

All the vehicles in the list here were rebuilt with my vehicle design rules. Everything started on an even level, so you should find the point totals here to be fair. Bjorn had an extra attack over normal dreads, I simply kept that when I updated this.

Overall, glad you like it!

**Dakka Wolf**

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
With the wolf scouts, the normal scouts have all of those things plus chapter tactics and most of the time objective secured. The fact that the wolf scouts are 1 point more per model and elites warranted the change given. Make them elite versions while still doing the same job. As for Bjorn, he deserves to have all of that and get the slight price drop.

All the vehicles in the list here were rebuilt with my vehicle design rules. Everything started on an even level, so you should find the point totals here to be fair. Bjorn had an extra attack over normal dreads, I simply kept that when I updated this.

Overall, glad you like it!

Oh, while I remember. The Deathwolves Great Company give stealth and reserve shenanigans as special rules and force you to take Wolf Scouts as a 'tax' unit.
It may not be the most efficient way of getting the scouts you want but you don't have to pay the extra I was suggeting.

**Formosa**

255pts for a land raider? a tank that is woefully under gunned, and overpriced? nah, I propose 220 max, id even go full tard and make it 200, but that's silly lol

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Formosa wrote:
255pts for a land raider? a tank that is woefully under gunned, and overpriced? nah, I propose 220 max, id even go full tard and make it 200, but that's silly lol

If you look at the changes to the overall potency of anti vehicle weapons you will see that the landraider's durability is significantly improved here.

Haywire isn't going to just eliminate it anymore, and monstrous creatures/ walkers will be closing the distance fast enough that counter assault units such as terminators have a legitimate roll to play.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

Updated first post!

**Dr. Zoidbork**

Your rules change Stealth and Shrouded to inflict -1 and -2 penalties respectively to the Ballistic Skill of the shooting unit, but do not state if there is a minimum value. Is this intentional? Because it means that Orks simply can't shoot at a Shrouded unit, and a few other armies can't shoot at a unit that is Stealthed and Shrouded.

**O'Whelk**

I play in Lyth's home group, we run it as going to minimum BS 1. Even a blind ork can hit a Ghostkeel every once in a while!

**Dr. Zoidbork**

O'Whelk wrote:
I play in Lyth's home group, we run it as going to minimum BS 1. Even a blind ork can hit a Ghostkeel every once in a while!

Good to know, although I was thinking more about the impact Venomthropes would make...

Lyth might want to make this clear in the first post, though. The BRB says that Initiative is the only value that cannot be modified below 1 (and no other characteristic can go below 0), so it's an easy conclusion to draw.