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hello,

in the new FAQ draft GW clarified that psychic shriek (and other powers that do not have a profile) automaticly hit - so no to hit rolls.

but can it be fired as a snapshot?

is there any rule that prevent or allows this? i thought there was a passage in the rulebook that stated something along the lines: "shooting attacks that do not roll to hit cannot be fired as snapshots" i did a quick glance through the rulebook but couldnt find that particular rule anymore... maybe i just confused it with blast and templates rules in regards to snapshots...


any ideas?

When would you ever be forced to take a psychic power as a snapshot?

 Hanskrampf wrote:
When would you ever be forced to take a psychic power as a snapshot?

When you were riding in a transport that jinked or you were a psychic pilot that jinked?

or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

RedNoak wrote:
or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

I'd agree to that. witchfires are shooting attacks that don't need BS.

"any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot."

That seems pretty solid to me that shriek can't be used since it doesn't use BS to shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
or when you are shooting at flyers or FMC or invisible units for that matter

EDIT:

ok i found it... under snapshots -.-

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

so no snapshots for withfires that dont use weapon profiles? or am i missing somethin?

I'd agree to that. witchfires are shooting attacks that don't need BS.

No, witchfires do need BS if they have a profile and thus most of them can snap shot. Psychic Shriek is an exception. It in particular doesn't use BS and thus doesn't get to snap shot.

Zimko wrote:
No, witchfires do need BS if they have a profile and thus most of them can snap shot. Psychic Shriek is an exception. It in particular doesn't use BS and thus doesn't get to snap shot.

yes absolutly. i was only talking about withfires that dont roll to hit. normal witchfires can be shot as snapshots.

"Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons."

Riddle me this - what about psykers (like a broodlord) with BS0 but have psychic shriek. Can they use it?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Riddle me this - what about psykers (like a broodlord) with BS0 but have psychic shriek. Can they use it?

Witchfire powers are shooting attacks

If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also

make of this what you want

By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

RedNoak wrote:
hello,

in the new FAQ draft GW clarified that psychic shriek (and other powers that do not have a profile) automaticly hit - so no to hit rolls.

but can it be fired as a snapshot?

is there any rule that prevent or allows this? i thought there was a passage in the rulebook that stated something along the lines: "shooting attacks that do not roll to hit cannot be fired as snapshots" i did a quick glance through the rulebook but couldnt find that particular rule anymore... maybe i just confused it with blast and templates rules in regards to snapshots...


any ideas?

The FAQ doesn't say "autohit", it says "follow instructions written for that power". Going by their "apply common sense" style of FAQ answers I'd say you can use Psychic Scream, it's "not really" a shooting attack. But that's just HIWPI. Same for BS0 - it's rather obvious that Patriachs should use Psychic Shriek, even though the RAW would prevent it.

It automatically hits, as there are at least 2 faq answers that I saw on this. As it autohiots, it cannot be used as a snapshot and therefore you need skyfire to hit a swooping FMC

 Yarium wrote:
By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

In light of the first draft FAQ, what would prevent him from using Psychic Shriek?

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?
A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
By the RAW, the Genestealer Cult Patriarch can't use Psychic Shriek, despite it being the only Primaris power it can know. However, I believe the intent is that it could use it, considering that the board game version of the Patriarch actually has the Psychic Shriek ability, and GW simply dropped the ball on this.

In light of the first draft FAQ, what would prevent him from using Psychic Shriek?

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?
A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, the To Hit rolls matter in the same way as they do in any shooting attack.

That's kind of what I meant - according to the new FAQ, can a psyker with BS0 cast psychic shriek, which is a psychic shooting attack that does not roll to hit. I'm not sure RAW, but since it seems only reasonable to let them use their only primaris power.

Models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks. The errata states it best:

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Great, so if you use the power, you hit automatically. But, if you're BS0, you can't even get the option to start trying to shoot. Can't automatically hit with anything that doesn't shoot to begin with, which is what BS0 imposes.

That said, I'm 100% behind the Psychic Shriek still functioning, as it seems pretty clear that the intent is that such powers aren't even shooting attacks at all, but the rules written for them were just lazily shoe-horned in without realizing all the repercussions of doing so.

 Yarium wrote:
Models with BS0 can't make shooting attacks. The errata states it best:

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek); where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the attack hits automatically.’

Great, so if you use the power, you hit automatically. But, if you're BS0, you can't even get the option to start trying to shoot. Can't automatically hit with anything that doesn't shoot to begin with, which is what BS0 imposes.

That said, I'm 100% behind the Psychic Shriek still functioning, as it seems pretty clear that the intent is that such powers aren't even shooting attacks at all, but the rules written for them were just lazily shoe-horned in without realizing all the repercussions of doing so.

sorry, but psychic shriek is pretty clear. its an shooting attack (all witchfires are) that uses a special method to hit (i.e. not rolling to hit) as such cannot be used via snapfiring.

i can give you the quotes from the rulebook if you want or you can find em yourself by browsing through this thread.


as far as the patriarch goes... RAW clearly says no. but i personally would allow it. (commen sense n stuff and tyranids really need every buff they can get)

The way i read the rule is that they are psychic powers that they dont have to direct. i would say that even if they had to snap shot they would hit. Because they dont have to aim. Because they aren't really traditional shooting attacks like a template weapon is plus the way the FAQ reads to me that they never actually snap shoot the way a normal weapon would.

As far as the brood lord and his BS0, the way i read it is that his BS is totally irrelevant when firing one of the powers that does not require you to hit. But that is how i read it. Its not a weapon he is shooting, its a psychic attack, just SOME of them make you actual aim.

I can't find anywhere in the book that says a BS 0 model cannot make a shooting attack, BS 0 misses but per psy shriek all you need is the ability to target

 Dyslexican32 wrote:
The way i read the rule is that they are psychic powers that they dont have to direct. i would say that even if they had to snap shot they would hit. Because they dont have to aim. Because they aren't really traditional shooting attacks like a template weapon is plus the way the FAQ reads to me that they never actually snap shoot the way a normal weapon would.

i dont know what rules you read, but again, this one is pretty clear:

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

does psychic shriek roll to hit normally or does it have a certain special rule in regarding to hitting the target? in addition... does it use BS to hit the target?

An attack that doesnt use BS, can't snap shoot its crystal clear as others have said. BS 0 models however still can make shooting attacks, and can use shooting attacks that don't use BS

RedNoak wrote:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also...

make of this what you want

Where is the actual rule in this quote. I don't have my BRB with me right now, but the part that is cut off is probably the actual rule.
If it says "Models with BS0 cannot make shooting attacks", then that is pretty clear that a Patriarch cannot use Shriek.
However, if it says "Models with BS0 automatically fail to hit rolls", then we have a muddier situation in which we have to decide what takes priority: Auto-fail or Auto-succeed?

--

 Galef wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they
have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also...

make of this what you want

Where is the actual rule in this quote. I don't have my BRB with me right now, but the part that is cut off is probably the actual rule.
If it says "Models with BS0 cannot make shooting attacks", then that is pretty clear that a Patriarch cannot use Shriek.
However, if it says "Models with BS0 automatically fail to hit rolls", then we have a muddier situation in which we have to decide what takes priority: Auto-fail or Auto-succeed?

--

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

 Ghaz wrote:

Its under 'Zero-Level Characteristics' on page 9 and makes no specific mention of Ballistic Skill at all.

Nor excludes it, either.

Here is the pertinent sentence:

Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’).

The rest of the section is regarding specific situations, such as WS being both an offensive and defensive state, certain stats mean automatic death, and Armour Saves with a zero stat providing no benefit at all.

And it could just mean that he fails his To Hit roll if required to make one instead of not being able to shoot at all. Until GW defines what it means by having 'no ability whatsoever' when it comes to Ballistic Skill then one answer is just as likely to be correct as the other.

 Ghaz wrote:
And it could just mean that he fails his To Hit roll if required to make one instead of not being able to shoot at all. Until GW defines what it means by having 'no ability whatsoever' when it comes to Ballistic Skill then one answer is just as likely to be correct as the other.

"No ability" does not always translate to "always misses". In most cases "no ability" means no option to even start preparing to miss. BS 0 with a hundred guns has the same ability to shoot as a model with no guns in this case.

So since I have no ability to ride a motorbike I can't hop on one and try and ride it? Please give us a definition of what 'no ability' means in the rules. Page and paragraph.

 Ghaz wrote:
So since I have no ability to ride a motorbike I can't hop on one and try and ride it? Please give us a definition of what 'no ability' means in the rules. Page and paragraph.

Provide a proper counter that it doesn't mean that? A model with no ranged weapon has no ability to shoot, yes or no? Why or why not?

Falling down on a motorbike is not riding it. It is potentially damaging the vehicle and yourself.

So you can't provide a definition of what 'no ability' means then, can you? Yet you're trying to insist that your definition is the one with no support.

 Ghaz wrote:
So you can't provide a definition of what 'no ability' means then, can you? Yet you're trying to insist that your definition is the one with no support.

No Ability means they can not perform that task at all.

The rules for Zero-level Characteristics state:

"Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field (the same is also occasionally represented by a ‘–’). A model with Weapon Skill ‘0’ is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows..."

If a Weapon Skill ‘0’ model is incapacitated and cannot strike any blows.Then a BS 0 means that can not shoot.

Except again, where has GW stated that BS0 = can not shoot in the 7th edition rulebook? Please provide a page number and paragraph to support this.