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So, Space Marines of most varieties have a real embarrassment of riches these days with I don't know how many Detachments and Formations. Tyranids got a surprisingly long list of interesting if not great ones in their Dataslates. Eldar, check. Tau, fine. Mech, good. Orks, not bad. Guard, not as strong but some gems. Chaos even got some pretty cool ones recently. I'm looking at the lack of anything at all for Dark Eldar barring Freakshow (which is admittedly pretty good) and Sisters, both of which would probably work pretty well with a couple of minor tweaks by way of specific Detachment and a half-dozen formations. Until we see some kind of update around the 42nd millennium, has anyone spotted any great fan-made stuff to fill the void? If not, why not make some as a community?

My thought here is that working with the codices we have is probably the thing to do, rather than a rewrite, cool as that might be. Anyone got any ideas? Or as a springboard, what are the biggest things a formation of whatever sort needs to address?

For Dark Eldar, I could see a formation allowing something similar to the Ravenwing detahment, where moving flat-out turn one counts as Jinking without forcing snap fire. Further, I think a Formation for a night assault would be really cool, maybe start turn one automatically as a night-fight and roll on subsequent turns? How about troops onboard being able to fire at full BS after 12", or assault if they have chain-snares? There are also several underused units that could use a boost.

Sisters are great at MSU, but what about other play styles? Which units need some love to make them shine? Celestians, certainly, and both Penitent Engines and Repentia.

Who knows, if we throw down some good ideas maybe GW will see them given that they clearly are beginning to look to the community for ideas and marketing.

Well, Sisters have a few apocalypse-only formations that are okay.

The first is a Seraphim + Celestine formation that gets a free round of Shredding guns without using their Act of Faith. And I think universal Fearless, but I can't confirm that.

There's a Retributor formation made up of 3-5 Retributor units with Immolator DTs, each squad must also have at least one of the heavy weapons. The benefit of this formation is combining fire into special attacks, basically a big melta, big flamer, big bolter and a Holy Trinity shot that combines aspects of all 3. Pretty solid.

There's also a formation of Repentia and Penetient Engines that I can't remember what it does. Other than that it is underwhelming.

Just moving those to normal 40k would be a pretty fine start for Sisters.

Here's a proposal for Dark Eldar:

Kabalite Raiding Force

1 Archon
0-2 Court of the Archon
2-6 units of Kabalite Warriors
0-3 units of Kabalite Trueborn
0-3 units of Scourges
1-3 Ravagers

Restrictions: None

Command Benefits:
Evasive Action: All Ravagers in this formation and all Raiders taken as Dedicated Transports for units in this formation gain a 6+ cover save if they move Combat Speed, 5+ if they move Cruising Speed, and 4+ if they move Flat Out.
Swift and Sure we Strike: Any unit from this formation embarked in a Raider may disembark from a Raider that has moved Cruising Speed. If they do not disembark, they may fire at full Ballistic Skill, rather than firing Snap Shots. Units that disembark in this way may shoot, run and charge normally.
Deadeye: Ravagers from this formation may fire all their weapons at full Ballistic Skill, even if they move Cruising Speed.
Ultra-virulent Poison: If the Archon from this formation joins any other unit from this formation, any splinter weapons in that squad gain the Shred special rule.

The rationale here is to encourage the use of Raiders over Venoms, and to give Raider-borne squads even more mobility options. With the ability to fire at full BS after moving Cruising Speed, using Cannonborn in a Raider with Splinter Racks actually makes sense.

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Sisters have a few apocalypse-only formations that are okay.

The first is a Seraphim + Celestine formation that gets a free round of Shredding guns without using their Act of Faith. And I think universal Fearless, but I can't confirm that.

There's a Retributor formation made up of 3-5 Retributor units with Immolator DTs, each squad must also have at least one of the heavy weapons. The benefit of this formation is combining fire into special attacks, basically a big melta, big flamer, big bolter and a Holy Trinity shot that combines aspects of all 3. Pretty solid.

There's also a formation of Repentia and Penitent Engines that I can't remember what it does. Other than that it is underwhelming.

Just moving those to normal 40k would be a pretty fine start for Sisters.

I think what turned me off from those formations was that Sisters players almost never have enough of any of those units to make the formation. I'm the only person I know with a bunch of Penitent Engines for example. The apocalyptic blast for Retributors feels goofy to me personally. The Seraphim one is interesting though. I'll take a first crack at a detachment:

Sisters Militant Commandery
1+ Core
0-1 Command per Core Choice
1-10 Auxiliary per Core Choice


Core: Order Militant Mission
1 Canoness
0-1 Sororitas Command Squads
3 Battle Sister Squads
1 Celestian Squad
1 Retributor Squad
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Bearers of the Faith: All units able to take a Simulacrum Imperialis may take one at no points cost. Any model bearing a SA gains Infantry(Character) and, in a challenge, may reroll invulnerable saves from Shield of Faith.
Inspiring Oratory: Sisters units within 12" of the Canoness from this Formation gain Stubborn. Once per game, all Adepta Sororitas Infantry within 6" may benefit from the Canoness' "The Passion" act of faith.
Defenders of the Shrine: All units from this detachment have Objective Secured.


Command:
One Canoness and 0-1 Sororitas Command Squad, OR 1-5 Ministorum Priests and 0-5 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves. Uriah Jacobus may be taken in place of a Ministorum Priest.

Auxiliaries:

Dominion Vanguard:
2-4 Dominion Squads
Restrictions: All Dominion Squads in this Formation must take four Special Weapons and must take a Dedicated Transport.
Benefits:
Fire and Fury: Any unit suffering unsaved wounds from this Formation's Shooting attacks must take a Morale check regardless of the number of casualties taken.

Keepers of the Holy Trinity
2-4 Retributor Squads
Restrictions: All Retributor Squads in this Formation must take four Heavy Weapons.
Benefits:
Holy Trinity: A successful use of their Act of Faith (Divine Guidance) confers Relentless on the unit as well as its other effects, for the duration of the AoF.

Seraphim Choir
2-4 Seraphim Squads
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
On Wings of Fire: All units in this Formation may Run then Shoot, or Shoot then Run in the Shooting Phase after they Deep Strike. Failed Initiative tests to Hit and Run may be re-rolled.
Angelic Strike: The Emperor's Deliverance AoF last through both the current Shooting Phase and the Assault Phase.

Penitent Host
2 Sisters Repentia Squads
2-3 Penitent Engine squadrons
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Martyr's Frenzy: On any turn after the first turn of a close combat, models from this formation gain Rampage.

Grand Concerto
3 Exorcists
Restrictions: The Exorcists from this Formation must form into a single vehicle squadron.
Benefits:
Mobile Shrine: Adepta Sororitas units within 6" of a model from this Formation gain Fearless.
Orchestrated Strike: The machine spirits harmonize in a fusillade of coordinated destruction. Roll a single die for the number of shots fired and add one. Each exorcist fires that many missiles.

Living Saint: Saint Celestine

Celestian Squad

Battle Sister Squad

There's a start. I feel like Celestians need something. Anyone got any ideas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Here's a proposal for Dark Eldar:

Kabalite Raiding Force

1 Archon
0-2 Court of the Archon
2-6 units of Kabalite Warriors
0-3 units of Kabalite Trueborn
0-3 units of Scourges
1-3 Ravagers

Restrictions: None

Command Benefits:
Evasive Action: All Ravagers in this formation and all Raiders taken as Dedicated Transports for units in this formation gain a 6+ cover save if they move Combat Speed, 5+ if they move Cruising Speed, and 4+ if they move Flat Out.
Swift and Sure we Strike: Any unit from this formation embarked in a Raider may disembark from a Raider that has moved Cruising Speed. If they do not disembark, they may fire at full Ballistic Skill, rather than firing Snap Shots. Units that disembark in this way may shoot, run and charge normally.
Deadeye: Ravagers from this formation may fire all their weapons at full Ballistic Skill, even if they move Cruising Speed.
Ultra-virulent Poison: If the Archon from this formation joins any other unit from this formation, any splinter weapons in that squad gain the Shred special rule.

The rationale here is to encourage the use of Raiders over Venoms, and to give Raider-borne squads even more mobility options. With the ability to fire at full BS after moving Cruising Speed, using Cannonborn in a Raider with Splinter Racks actually makes sense.

That would make a pretty cool Core formation for sure. I think maybe under Restrictions all the Kabalite Warriors should have to purchase Raiders as Dedicated Transports. Maybe the Courts too, unless they are deploying via Webway Portal.

Here's a quick go at an overall Detachment:
Dark Kin of Commoragh
1+ Core, 1-5 Auxiliary per Core Choice
Command Benefits:
Lord of the Dark Kin: Warlord may reroll Warlord Trait if chosen from Dark Eldar Traits.
Hunt From the Shadows: As in the Codex.
Heart of Darkness: If the roll indicates a Night-Fight scenario, the Dark Eldar player may choose Dawn or Dusk. If Dawn was chosen, Night Fight my be extended to the next game turn on the roll of a 5+ each turn. Once this roll is failed, Night Fighting rules end. If Dusk is chosen, roll each turn after the first- on turn 2 it is a night fight on a roll of 6, on turn 3 a 5+, turn 4 on a 4+, and so on. Once a night fight is rolled, Night Fighting conditions last until the end of the game.

Then, another Core for Wyches:

Wych Cult (Core)
1 Succubus
2-6 units of Wyches
1-3 units of Bloodbrides
0-2 Unit ofBeastmasters
1-3 Units of Reavers
0-2 units of Hellions

Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Taste for Excitement: All units in this Formation may re-roll any result on the Combat Drugs table. The second result must be kept in this case.
Swift and Sure We Strike: (as above)
Dance of Death: Wyches, Bloodbrides and the Succubus from this Formation may use their Dodge save against Overwatch attacks.

Command (0-1 per Core)) One Archon, Haemonculus or Succubus

Auxiliary:
Incubi Shrine
1-3 units of Incubi
0-1 Drazhar

Aelindrach Stalkers
1-3 units of Mandrakes

Outcasts
One unit of the following: Scourges, Hellions or Beastmasters

The Altered
One unit of Grotesques or Wracks

Pain Engines
One (1) Talos or Cronos

1 Voidraven Bomber

1 Razorwing Jetfighter

I figure that Haemonculi Covens has done all it needs to to make those units interesting and effective so haven't done anything with them.

After some digging, here are a few other people working on the idea. It's really remarkable how similar everyone's ideas are on how to fix some of the weaknesses Sisters have. I'm surprised there's not more Dark Eldar though, I suppose that's because Eldar are battle Brothers. Which honestly still bothers me although it's very good.

Adepta Sororitas:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/656440.page#7983969 by Giantwalkingchair

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/652203.page#7907930 by Eldar Vampire Hunter

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/687084.page by Haravikk; homebrew book so a bit different but very well designed file.

Dark Eldar:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12590-the-dark-eldar-decurion by Zentis

http://warlockpurple.tumblr.com/post/126408997843/not-content-with-your-current-dark-eldar-check by Warlockpurple

Thanks for digging those up and linking them in one place.

coughcough. You forgot to link your ow.

Drider wrote:
Thanks for digging those up and linking them in one place.

coughcough. You forgot to link your ow.

I could link to a link to a link but then I'll get confused and have to lie down for a while.

aushlo wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Well, Sisters have a few apocalypse-only formations that are okay.

The first is a Seraphim + Celestine formation that gets a free round of Shredding guns without using their Act of Faith. And I think universal Fearless, but I can't confirm that.

There's a Retributor formation made up of 3-5 Retributor units with Immolator DTs, each squad must also have at least one of the heavy weapons. The benefit of this formation is combining fire into special attacks, basically a big melta, big flamer, big bolter and a Holy Trinity shot that combines aspects of all 3. Pretty solid.

There's also a formation of Repentia and Penitent Engines that I can't remember what it does. Other than that it is underwhelming.

Just moving those to normal 40k would be a pretty fine start for Sisters.

I think what turned me off from those formations was that Sisters players almost never have enough of any of those units to make the formation. I'm the only person I know with a bunch of Penitent Engines for example. The apocalyptic blast for Retributors feels goofy to me personally. The Seraphim one is interesting though. I'll take a first crack at a detachment:

Sisters Militant Commandery
1+ Core
0-1 Command per Core Choice
1-10 Auxiliary per Core Choice


Core: Order Militant Mission
1 Canoness
0-1 Sororitas Command Squads
3 Battle Sister Squads
1 Celestian Squad
1 Retributor Squad
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Bearers of the Faith: All units able to take a Simulacrum Imperialis may take one at no points cost. Any model bearing a SA gains Infantry(Character) and, in a challenge, may reroll invulnerable saves from Shield of Faith.
Inspiring Oratory: Sisters units within 12" of the Canoness from this Formation gain Stubborn. Once per game, all Adepta Sororitas Infantry within 6" may benefit from the Canoness' "The Passion" act of faith.
Defenders of the Shrine: All units from this detachment have Objective Secured.


Command:
One Canoness and 0-1 Sororitas Command Squad, OR 1-5 Ministorum Priests and 0-5 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves. Uriah Jacobus may be taken in place of a Ministorum Priest.

Auxiliaries:

Dominion Vanguard:
2-4 Dominion Squads
Restrictions: All Dominion Squads in this Formation must take four Special Weapons and must take a Dedicated Transport.
Benefits:
Fire and Fury: Any unit suffering unsaved wounds from this Formation's Shooting attacks must take a Morale check regardless of the number of casualties taken.

Keepers of the Holy Trinity
2-4 Retributor Squads
Restrictions: All Retributor Squads in this Formation must take four Heavy Weapons.
Benefits:
Holy Trinity: A successful use of their Act of Faith (Divine Guidance) confers Relentless on the unit as well as its other effects, for the duration of the AoF.

Seraphim Choir
2-4 Seraphim Squads
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
On Wings of Fire: All units in this Formation may Run then Shoot, or Shoot then Run in the Shooting Phase after they Deep Strike. Failed Initiative tests to Hit and Run may be re-rolled.
Angelic Strike: The Emperor's Deliverance AoF last through both the current Shooting Phase and the Assault Phase.

Penitent Host
2 Sisters Repentia Squads
2-3 Penitent Engine squadrons
Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Martyr's Frenzy: On any turn after the first turn of a close combat, models from this formation gain Rampage.

Grand Concerto
3 Exorcists
Restrictions: The Exorcists from this Formation must form into a single vehicle squadron.
Benefits:
Mobile Shrine: Adepta Sororitas units within 6" of a model from this Formation gain Fearless.
Orchestrated Strike: The machine spirits harmonize in a fusillade of coordinated destruction. Roll a single die for the number of shots fired and add one. Each exorcist fires that many missiles.

Living Saint: Saint Celestine

Celestian Squad

Battle Sister Squad

There's a start. I feel like Celestians need something. Anyone got any ideas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Here's a proposal for Dark Eldar:

Kabalite Raiding Force

1 Archon
0-2 Court of the Archon
2-6 units of Kabalite Warriors
0-3 units of Kabalite Trueborn
0-3 units of Scourges
1-3 Ravagers

Restrictions: None

Command Benefits:
Evasive Action: All Ravagers in this formation and all Raiders taken as Dedicated Transports for units in this formation gain a 6+ cover save if they move Combat Speed, 5+ if they move Cruising Speed, and 4+ if they move Flat Out.
Swift and Sure we Strike: Any unit from this formation embarked in a Raider may disembark from a Raider that has moved Cruising Speed. If they do not disembark, they may fire at full Ballistic Skill, rather than firing Snap Shots. Units that disembark in this way may shoot, run and charge normally.
Deadeye: Ravagers from this formation may fire all their weapons at full Ballistic Skill, even if they move Cruising Speed.
Ultra-virulent Poison: If the Archon from this formation joins any other unit from this formation, any splinter weapons in that squad gain the Shred special rule.

The rationale here is to encourage the use of Raiders over Venoms, and to give Raider-borne squads even more mobility options. With the ability to fire at full BS after moving Cruising Speed, using Cannonborn in a Raider with Splinter Racks actually makes sense.

That would make a pretty cool Core formation for sure. I think maybe under Restrictions all the Kabalite Warriors should have to purchase Raiders as Dedicated Transports. Maybe the Courts too, unless they are deploying via Webway Portal.

Here's a quick go at an overall Detachment:
Dark Kin of Commoragh
1+ Core, 1-5 Auxiliary per Core Choice
Command Benefits:
Lord of the Dark Kin: Warlord may reroll Warlord Trait if chosen from Dark Eldar Traits.
Hunt From the Shadows: As in the Codex.
Heart of Darkness: If the roll indicates a Night-Fight scenario, the Dark Eldar player may choose Dawn or Dusk. If Dawn was chosen, Night Fight my be extended to the next game turn on the roll of a 5+ each turn. Once this roll is failed, Night Fighting rules end. If Dusk is chosen, roll each turn after the first- on turn 2 it is a night fight on a roll of 6, on turn 3 a 5+, turn 4 on a 4+, and so on. Once a night fight is rolled, Night Fighting conditions last until the end of the game.

Then, another Core for Wyches:

Wych Cult (Core)
1 Succubus
2-6 units of Wyches
1-3 units of Bloodbrides
0-2 Unit ofBeastmasters
1-3 Units of Reavers
0-2 units of Hellions

Restrictions: None
Benefits:
Taste for Excitement: All units in this Formation may re-roll any result on the Combat Drugs table. The second result must be kept in this case.
Swift and Sure We Strike: (as above)
Dance of Death: Wyches, Bloodbrides and the Succubus from this Formation may use their Dodge save against Overwatch attacks.

Command (0-1 per Core)) One Archon, Haemonculus or Succubus

Auxiliary:
Incubi Shrine
1-3 units of Incubi
0-1 Drazhar

Aelindrach Stalkers
1-3 units of Mandrakes

Outcasts
One unit of the following: Scourges, Hellions or Beastmasters

The Altered
One unit of Grotesques or Wracks

Pain Engines
One (1) Talos or Cronos

1 Voidraven Bomber

1 Razorwing Jetfighter

I figure that Haemonculi Covens has done all it needs to to make those units interesting and effective so haven't done anything with them.

The Wych Cult one doesn't give enough bonuses IMO. I would instead make dance of death to "may make their dodge saves against shooting attacks"

and a new one entirely, "acrobat": (pretty much copy pasted from the craftworld eldar banshees) plus 3" to all movements made to all units in this formation.

This would make me want to take wyches a lot more than just saving me from overwatch.

It would make them way better, obviously. Is a 4+ invulnerable all the time vs. attacks too strong though? Harlequins pay a lot for their invulnerable saves. Acrobat could be neat.

Yeah a 4+ compared to harlies would be a little crazy. Perhaps 6+ so at least it might save a model or 2? Because of the d6 system it's hard to find a balance between fragile and tough.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yeah a 4+ compared to harlies would be a little crazy. Perhaps 6+ so at least it might save a model or 2? Because of the d6 system it's hard to find a balance between fragile and tough.

Yeah, 6+ would probably be decent.

Or maybe have it represented as Stealth, vs. shooting attacks? It's hard to actually get a bead on them because they're moving so fast, being the fluff justification.

If extra shinies were needed, make that Stealth for Wyches, Shrouded for Bloodbrides and both for Succubi (with the benefit that having a Succubus along would confer that on their unit, but hey.)

jade_angel wrote:
Or maybe have it represented as Stealth, vs. shooting attacks? It's hard to actually get a bead on them because they're moving so fast, being the fluff justification.

If extra shinies were needed, make that Stealth for Wyches, Shrouded for Bloodbrides and both for Succubi (with the benefit that having a Succubus along would confer that on their unit, but hey.)

Dark Eldar already rely on cover so much, so I think more of it in the army would just be unnecessary, especially with ignores cover running about. But I like the more elite the wych is, the more skilled. So Bloodbrides get a 5+ and succubus get a 4+ to make up for their crap armour? Or perhaps give the wyches(and all their realtive units) ability to "jink"?

Ok, yeah, I could see that. And then - in the interest of continuing to make Lelith worth the points outlay, which is already dubious - make hers a 3++ full-time. (Maybe increase to a 2++ in challenges, but I'm really, really skeptical of 2++ in general because it can be a serious funsucker.)

Now, yeah, there's the comparison with Harlies, but Bloodbrides don't have W2 squad leaders or the same kind of weapon shinies as Harlies, and they don't have flip belts, so I think maybe that's fair.

4+ for the Succubus is downright fine, I think. S3/T3 melee beatsticks are dubious already, so the buff wouldn't be excessive, especially because it doesn't particularly buff her damage output over a game, and a T3 model will be leaning on that save hard. (To say nothing of dice... My Archons seem to reliably lose their shadowfields to the first lasgun pointed at them, even if they've just shrugged off a D hit!)

jade_angel wrote:
Ok, yeah, I could see that. And then - in the interest of continuing to make Lelith worth the points outlay, which is already dubious - make hers a 3++ full-time. (Maybe increase to a 2++ in challenges, but I'm really, really skeptical of 2++ in general because it can be a serious funsucker.)

Now, yeah, there's the comparison with Harlies, but Bloodbrides don't have W2 squad leaders or the same kind of weapon shinies as Harlies, and they don't have flip belts, so I think maybe that's fair.

4+ for the Succubus is downright fine, I think. S3/T3 melee beatsticks are dubious already, so the buff wouldn't be excessive, especially because it doesn't particularly buff her damage output over a game, and a T3 model will be leaning on that save hard. (To say nothing of dice... My Archons seem to reliably lose their shadowfields to the first lasgun pointed at them, even if they've just shrugged off a D hit!)

Considering Archons can get a 2++, I think lelith can get one and still be fair. Remember, she's no eternal warrior or anything tough so a 1 will probably take her off the board. Plus, refusing challenges and just bashing her face in is still an option. (Unless you're KDK, Wolves, or Chaos )

I wonder if fancy cover or invuls against normal shooting are really what Wyches need, other than in Overwatch. 99% of the time they are going to be assaulting out of a Raider anyway. They suffer from Genestealer syndrome- potentially deadly in CC but either wipe out the enemy in a turn and sit there looking dumb while getting shot to pieces, or get stuck and start to lose due to attrition. Then again, they are pretty cheap for their profile in comparison to a lot of armies, crap save being the exception. In a Raider though they have a 1+ Invulnerable until they eat a Template or their ride crashes.

Hold the phone, what about an ability to re-embark after combat when consolidating, like Harlequins get? That solves a lot of problems.

The only problem with that is that the chances of a 10 man/woman (lol) wych squad probably couldn't wipe most units they have trouble killing in the first place in CC in one round of combat without good rolls and bad morale and saving rolls on your opponents part. And even then, you have to pull your boat right beside the enemy to safely consolidate back in.