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I went against one of the Nid players in my local tournament the other day, 1250 pts, 4x4 table, and I rekt him so hard it was beyond funny.
And that felt rather awful.

I wasn't too sure, upon turning up, what points we were doing: 1000 or 1250 (I still have a 1k game to play; 3 for each bracket, see), so I came up with a list in the morning, with a 1000 and 1250 version, Nids in mind.
My opponent didn't even consider any of that, so just rocked up with his box, and hastily chucked some Nids on the board to make a quick 1250 list.

I was using:

1 7-Man Kataphron Destroyers, with Grav and Flamers.
Attatched my Dominus, who had Arkhan's Autocad'. (Him and his unit get IWND)
Also managed to roll a 6 for the warlord trait, so max power Canticles.

1 Icarus Crawler
2 10-man Vanguard, one with two Calivers (and some other gubbinz, but that squad didn't even do anything)
1 6-man Infiltrators, with Tasers and Flechette, along with the Phase Taser.

He was using:

A flying Tyrant
2 Carnifex
1 Exocrine
A Mawloc
10-man Gargoyles
5-man Hormagaunts
3 Warriors
Gene stealer brood, with brood lord thingy.

Not sure on the details, but anyway:

He gets first turn, moves onto 3 objective markers, sticks his Tyrant on the one right in the middle of the board.
Kills nothing.

My first turn:
One-shot the Exocrine with my Kataphrons, (gave them the Re-roll all failed hits Canticle), killed the Tyrant with my Icarus and vanilla Vanguard. (Icarus only did 1 wound, pfft).
Wiped out the Gaunts with my infiltrators, although that was both shooting and CC, end up tarpitting the warriors.

His 2nd turn, kills an Infiltrator, and deep strikes his Mawloc into my Kataphrons.
2 wounds is rather handy, 2 of them and the Dominus survive after two impacts, has to roll on the mishap table.
Gets a 1.
Genestealers are just chilling in a ruined castle, doing nothing, except camping an objective he has no cards for. (Nor I, for that matter)
Charges his Gargoyles into my Infiltrators, only 3 can actually get in. Proceed to get killed by a single Infiltrator. (Was actually my Rust stalker Princeps, standing in as a normal Infy)
Carnifex amble about, trying to find things to eat.

My 2nd turn:
One-shot a Carnifex with my remaining Kataphrons, get the other down to a single wound with my vanilla Vanguard.
Infiltrators kill a Warrior, Crawler does sod-all.
Try to kill the last Carnifex with my other Vanguard, can only get him with one of the Calivers, end up missing all the shots.

At this point, I'm winning 7:2, certain to get 4 more points in my next turn, whilst he gets 1 or so.
End up tabling him on turn 3 anyway.

----------

Now, question is, should Tyrannids typically get ham blasted by AdMech at that bracket? Fells pretty damn crummy if that is the case.
In 500 pts games against a friend of mine, who uses Nids, I've had my closest, most balanced games ever.

(I should also note: My opponent has, unfortunately, lost all 6 league games he's played)

considering that you tailored the list against nids and played against a nid player who didn't play to win but rather played to play, you are actually asking if you can expect such one sided games?

 carldooley wrote:
considering that you tailored the list against nids and played against a nid player who didn't play to win but rather played to play, you are actually asking if you can expect such one sided games?

It's a tournament; I expect my opponents to play to win.
Besides, the only stuff I took because I was against Nids was the flamers and Icarus crawler, otherwise I have a pretty generic all-round list.

I am proud on you. Next week how to krump orks and how to murder IG tank companies with a tournament list

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I came up with a list in the morning, with a 1000 and 1250 version, Nids in mind.

My opponent didn't even consider any of that, so just rocked up with his box, and hastily chucked some Nids on the board to make a quick 1250 list.

Sounds like a great matchup

This feels a bit grumpsome.
Just a smidge.

Perhaps I should provide a little background:
I've only been playing for 5 months, with around 15 matches under my belt. I don't have a damn clue of what the meta is. I'm still exploring my units, getting a taste for what they can do, this match being the first time I've used my Kataphrons.
I do, however, spend alot of time studying the rules and my codices, seeing what combos and crud I can do, such as rad overdosing with Tasers.
I don't spend copious amounts of time reading the codices of other armies. I'll have a quick gander or two, just to get a rough idea, but I don't know the ins and outs. As far as I'm concerned, Orks will try and get in your face, Tau will stay as far from it as possible. Guard will have tanks and squishy humies, Eldar are glass cannons.
When I know what I'm against, I'll see what I've got to not get me completely ruined. I want close matches, not one-sided blood fests.

You want a pat on the back for list tailoring? Congrats.

No tournament I've ever played in let me bring multiple lists or change my list between opponents. Sounds like it's just a friendly set of matches, rather than what many people would consider a "tournament."

 Griddlelol wrote:
You want a pat on the back for list tailoring? Congrats.

No tournament I've ever played in let me bring multiple lists or change my list between opponents. Sounds like it's just a friendly set of matches, rather than what many people would consider a "tournament."

The shopkeep decided to, seeing as there's alot of new players this time round (including myself), to let us try different lists for the 750 and 1000 brackets, seeing as we're still learning. I'm assuming that's not the case for 1250 and 1500, so I'm sticking with my list above.
Some of the veterans haven't changed theirs at all, bar upgrading them through the brackets. The undefeated Necron guy being one.

I played two matches in a row in the 750, against the new Tau player, 3 months ago.
First match, I didn't stand a chance, lost 15:3.
He asks me: "Shall we try different lists?" "Sure", and so we did, and had a beautifully close game.

You should strive to create a Take All Comers list that does not change based on your opponent.

Yes, this may mean taking haywire weapons against nids. If that presents such a huge problem that your army is totally gimped, then bring less of it.

There is nothing wrong with reading up on and preparing for an opponent. "oh, Orks have low armor values, so I will be using my destroyers most likely as a flamer frontline, and I should support a different unit with my dominus" is fine, but "Oh, orks have low armor values, time to swap those grav guns for plasma guns" is not.

It's utterly disrespectful to your opponent and you should expect to win a lot of games in the manner you describe if you do it.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
This feels a bit grumpsome.
Just a smidge.

Perhaps I should provide a little background:
I've only been playing for 5 months, with around 15 matches under my belt. I don't have a damn clue of what the meta is. I'm still exploring my units, getting a taste for what they can do, this match being the first time I've used my Kataphrons.
I do, however, spend alot of time studying the rules and my codices, seeing what combos and crud I can do, such as rad overdosing with Tasers.
I don't spend copious amounts of time reading the codices of other armies. I'll have a quick gander or two, just to get a rough idea, but I don't know the ins and outs. As far as I'm concerned, Orks will try and get in your face, Tau will stay as far from it as possible. Guard will have tanks and squishy humies, Eldar are glass cannons.
When I know what I'm against, I'll see what I've got to not get me completely ruined. I want close matches, not one-sided blood fests.

You have come onto a forum to brag about heavily beating your opponent, and then tried to pretend it was actually to ask the question of wether or not that should be normal.
I've give and taken heavy losses, it is normal, particularly if you were allowed the luxury of tailoring your list.
It sounds like your opponent was unlucky (losing the Mawloc) and perhaps not that tactically astute. I'd also expect to see two flying hive tyrants in a tournament list

Don't get me wrong here is nothing really wrong with your list. Nor is it overly cheesy or unusual. It is just that Tyranids are one of the weaker codexes the best way to enjoy games vs weaker lists is to handicap yourself a bit to their lv instead of upping your list a notch by list tailoring it a bit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now there is the tournament thing. If you go in with a tournament mindset you should not be disappointed if you lists actually works.Doing your best to Kurb stomp your opponent is kinda the whole idea of a competitive tournament.
Just be prepared to be totally annihilated by the bigger fish that will surely come for you once you win your first few games.

Sounds like your opponent doesn't know anything about Tyranids, I mean who takes a Flying Hive Tyrant and doesnt fly him?

Honestly Cult Mech would stomp Nids most times anyway.

a) you took up thought up list that at least had idea. Not sure is that tournament optimal but lot better than random models in table
b) your opponent slaps in models quickly to make up list.
c) he didn't even seem to max effect(did the flytyrant fly or how you killed it just like that?)

No wonder you massacred him. 40k balance is off the whack, tyranids are on bottom tier and he didn't have even close to optimal list.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
It's a tournament; I expect my opponents to play to win.

I grew up in the 'local' tournament circuit. I live in a fairly rural area, where I had to travel a fair distance for games. I thought that focusing on days that I was guaranteed a couple games was a better proposition after going to a couple game nights and I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO SHOWED. Now though, I play casual games almost exclusively. It is an adjustment, and it looks like your nid opponent was a casual player who showed to a tournament.

 carldooley wrote:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
It's a tournament; I expect my opponents to play to win.

I grew up in the 'local' tournament circuit. I live in a fairly rural area, where I had to travel a fair distance for games. I thought that focusing on days that I was guaranteed a couple games was a better proposition after going to a couple game nights and I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO SHOWED. Now though, I play casual games almost exclusively. It is an adjustment, and it looks like your nid opponent was a casual player who showed to a tournament.

Yah. For many tournaments are simply way to get games in. 40k is hardly suited for competive gaming to begin with so why take it as one...

Hey, don't feel so bad, and welcome to 40k!

Firstly, don't beat yourself up too much. A slapped together list in a competitive setting when the player is also not giving it their all is going to be at a major disadvantage against almost everyone. Your opponent had some big bugs, which are intrinsically weak to Grav, and some small bugs, which are intrinsically weak to flamers. Flyrants that are in Swooping mode are harder to deal with, but still not at all impossible.

I also realize that the store owner was letting you change up your list based on your opponent, offering that to you and other new players rather than everyone. While it's a nice sentiment, these exact situations can arise because of it, and I think the store owner was wrong to let you do so. It's okay to be new and not winning a lot and playing with the "wrong" setup. It helps you learn what the right setup is. Most armies have certain weapons that are better against certain situations than others, and those games only tend to be fun when your codex also has ways of challenging those norms to do a counter-counter list. A great example is Space Marines. You assume you're going to be fighting 3+ armour saves, and leaders with 4+ Inv saves, coming across in Rhinos and Drop Pods. What you don't expect is the army of White Scar Bikers and Scout Bikers supported by a deep striking pod of Centurions. If you tailored for the first, and ended up facing the second, your tailored list isn't looking so tailored any longer!

And before getting to the Nids, you are playing a far newer army, with ready access to some of the most powerful and resilient forces the Imperium has to offer, and rolled quite possibly one of the best Warlord Traits (max-strength Canticles are a very powerful force-multiplier). Unfortunately, the game currently has a problem with some power creep, and not all armies are created equally. Just because two things are worth the same points does not mean they are equal.

Now, the Tyranids have an issue with every single thing listed here. Your opponent played without thinking, and didn't get to list tailor. Tyranids also have very limited abilities to list-tailor, as there's not a lot in the Tyranid list that's better against certain factions than others - all Tyranid weapons function in roughly the same range of power and function. All Tyranids also fit cleanly into two types; Big Bugs & gribblies, so it's harder for them to counter-counter tailor their lists as well. Lastly, the Tyranid codex is a far older book that took a serious hit in the last edition. The only thing that tends to be "worth" the points compared to the new things are Flyrants, and sometimes Mawlocs, which is unfortunate as it tends to further reduce the range of types of Tyranid lists you tend to see on the tabletop and how they play.

So, continue enjoying the game, and chalk this up to a learning experience about what some other players DON'T get access to that you do. You didn't do anything wrong here. That said, if the owner offers you to list tailor, consider not doing that, especially if going against one of these codexes (without allies):

- Chaos Space Marines
- Tyranids
- Orks
- Imperial Guard
- Dark Eldar

One question: Is this a Battle Forged tournament? If so, the Cult side of your list is short a troop slot - min 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Skitarii side is fine - min 2 Troops.

You also went up against one of the weakest codexes right now, they still have a 6th edition codex, and all of their units are pretty weak. The only way a nid player can wreck is getting in with a hive tyrennt, one that big tentacle monster, forget the name.

Well a slapped-together "list" will most of the time get torn apart by a thought-out list. Having a fairly decent codex fight one of the worst ones doesn't help at all.

The problem here is not with the OP or his list, but rather with the OP's opponent's list being one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen. It is no surprise he lost everything, that list is just worthless.
And because power levels can fluctuate so wildly in 40k, it is very important to match the right kind of list to the right kind of game. Competitive lists should only ever be brought against other competitive list. For friendly games you should just bring whatever units you like without much consideration of their competitive value.

I'm gonna say that posters here should back off the snark. OP has said he's only been playing 5 months or so, so it's not his fault he doesn't know all the ins and outs of the game.

OP, couple things:
-List tailoring is generally frowned up, at least in terms of tournament matches. In casual games, it's a bit more loose
-It's weird your tournament let you make a new list each time. Most will lock you in with one list and you play the matches out using ONLY that list.
-Your opponent's list absolutely sucked, but that's okay. It sounds like this might be a more friendly tournament, in which case an optimized list will wreck shop.

Welcome to 40k. Unfortunately, power levels can swing wildly, so sometimes you have to ask "do you want a tourney level game or a friendly one?" and adjust your list accordingly.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:


Now, question is, should Tyrannids typically get ham blasted by AdMech at that bracket? Fells pretty damn crummy if that is the case.
In 500 pts games against a friend of mine, who uses Nids, I've had my closest, most balanced games ever.

Points 'Brackets' don't make a big difference to which codex is more likely to win unless you are looking at sub 100 point games or something. The Tyranid codex has terrible internal balance with only really one gem (flying hive tyrant - specifically armed with 2 twin linked devourers and played to never land on the ground). Your opponent took a balanced selection of units from the codex resulting in a very one sided game. So to answer your question No AdMech should not blast Tyranids every time at 1250 because it's all about the unit choice not the codex.

I'm a very fluff-orientated player who'll even take fluffy lists to tournaments, yet for this thread I will defend the OP; if you throw a list together rather than taking your meta into account, then don't expect to win a tournament if you compete.

Everyone seems to be hating on the OP for using the Tournament rules and his brain, to his advantage.

To the OP - It seems like your opponent simply doesn't care if he wins or loses, it's not necessarily that Admech > Nids.

 Imateria wrote:
Sounds like your opponent doesn't know anything about Tyranids, I mean who takes a Flying Hive Tyrant and doesnt fly him?

Honestly Cult Mech would stomp Nids most times anyway.

He did fly him, although was so simple to say that "This guy has 12" movement". I still fired snap shots at it, albeit 30 Rad Carbine shots, with sufficient 6's for those double wounds.

the_scotsman wrote:
You should strive to create a Take All Comers list that does not change based on your opponent.
Yes, this may mean taking haywire weapons against nids. If that presents such a huge problem that your army is totally gimped, then bring less of it.

There is nothing wrong with reading up on and preparing for an opponent. "oh, Orks have low armor values, so I will be using my destroyers most likely as a flamer frontline, and I should support a different unit with my dominus" is fine, but "Oh, orks have low armor values, time to swap those grav guns for plasma guns" is not.

It's utterly disrespectful to your opponent and you should expect to win a lot of games in the manner you describe if you do it.

Very handy and clear advice there, thankyou.

Huron black heart wrote:

You have come onto a forum to brag about heavily beating your opponent, and then tried to pretend it was actually to ask the question of wether or not that should be normal.

That's precisely wrong. I came here because I was utterly bewildered, and wanted some kind of explanation to the situation. I wouldn't brag about something that didn't feel good at all.

 Yarium wrote:
So, continue enjoying the game, and chalk this up to a learning experience about what some other players DON'T get access to that you do. You didn't do anything wrong here. That said, if the owner offers you to list tailor, consider not doing that, especially if going against one of these codexes (without allies):

- Chaos Space Marines
- Tyranids
- Orks
- Imperial Guard
- Dark Eldar

Thankyou, noted.

 Carlson793 wrote:
One question: Is this a Battle Forged tournament? If so, the Cult side of your list is short a troop slot - min 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Skitarii side is fine - min 2 Troops.

I had the Skitarii lot as my primary detachment, and the Cult stuff in the Allied formation found in the rulebook, pg 122.

 jreilly89 wrote:


OP, couple things:
-List tailoring is generally frowned upon, at least in terms of tournament matches. In casual games, it's a bit more loose
-It's weird your tournament let you make a new list each time. Most will lock you in with one list and you play the matches out using ONLY that list.
-Your opponent's list absolutely sucked, but that's okay. It sounds like this might be a more friendly tournament, in which case an optimized list will wreck shop.

Welcome to 40k. Unfortunately, power levels can swing wildly, so sometimes you have to ask "do you want a tourney level game or a friendly one?" and adjust your list accordingly.

Alright.


Not as hostile a bunch of responses I was expecting to get back to, thanks for that. Definitely learnt alot now.

I did nip into my local this afternoon, asking the shopkeep for some clarification, and he said that we can take whatever list we like (that applies to everyone), with the only restriction being your Primary detachment must be the same faction every time. (Being the faction we signed up with- Some people were specific, and chose 'White Scars' and 'Daemons of Nurgle', others more loose, with the shopkeep letting me go in with 'Mechanicum', being Taghmata, Skitarii, and Cult).
I also asked about taking stuff based on what faction you're against, seeing as everyone knows what faction everyone's using, and he said that's perfectly fine. "If you think you're going to get run over by a Nid swarm, by all means, take a load of flamers."
And also on how my opponent felt after the match, and turns out he still had fun, so that's good. He's only been playing a month more than I have, (although doesn't seem to be as in to it as I am), and learnt a fair doo on how to utilise his army, helped by some /Tactical Advice/ by the Shopkeep, based on the match. (He'll give that to any of us if we ask him).

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I did nip into my local this afternoon, asking the shopkeep for some clarification, and he said that we can take whatever list we like (that applies to everyone), with the only restriction being your Primary detachment must be the same faction every time. (Being the faction we signed up with- Some people were specific, and chose 'White Scars' and 'Daemons of Nurgle', others more loose, with the shopkeep letting me go in with 'Mechanicum', being Taghmata, Skitarii, and Cult).
I also asked about taking stuff based on what faction you're against, seeing as everyone knows what faction everyone's using, and he said that's perfectly fine. "If you think you're going to get run over by a Nid swarm, by all means, take a load of flamers."
And also on how my opponent felt after the match, and turns out he still had fun, so that's good. He's only been playing a month more than I have, (although doesn't seem to be as in to it as I am), and learnt a fair doo on how to utilise his army, helped by some /Tactical Advice/ by the Shopkeep, based on the match. (He'll give that to any of us if we ask him).

That's pretty different league structure to what I'm used for sure. When I was in league it was different list every week(good. I hate playing same list more than once!) but since you knew opponent when organizers told you on the day not much tailoring(not that I was tailoring anyway. Was throwing in what I enjoyed and what models I had!).

These days 40k works even less well when lists can be tailored due to horrible balance issues. Some armies will simply get CREAMED if opponents can tailor without much they can do.

Good that your opponent had fun. He was pretty much quaranteed loss from the moment he chose his army.

Glad to hear that things went over well for your opponent too! And yeah, if the organiser is saying that list-tailoring is fine for these events, well then it's fine.

If I have one problem with balance in 40k, it's stuff like this. You're a new player. It's not fair to place a burden on you this early to know how powerful your list is. You've barely seen the depth this game has to offer, and you are already accidentally creating lists that will demolish nearly anything.

I was about to ask you to just keep an eye on your opponent to know whether or not your list will be too powerful for them, but there's no way I can reasonably ask that of you. You've simply not had enough time in the game to know yet.

For now, play what you think is fun. With time you'll learn what's too strong and what's too weak, and how to have a good time with the game.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

 Carlson793 wrote:
One question: Is this a Battle Forged tournament? If so, the Cult side of your list is short a troop slot - min 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Skitarii side is fine - min 2 Troops.

I had the Skitarii lot as my primary detachment, and the Cult stuff in the Allied formation found in the rulebook, pg 122.

If Skitarri were your primary detachment then your Dominus shouldn't have been your warlord. Probably not a major influence on the results of your game but something to watch out for in future.

TonyL707 wrote:

 Buddingsquaw wrote:

 Carlson793 wrote:
One question: Is this a Battle Forged tournament? If so, the Cult side of your list is short a troop slot - min 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Skitarii side is fine - min 2 Troops.

I had the Skitarii lot as my primary detachment, and the Cult stuff in the Allied formation found in the rulebook, pg 122.

If Skitarri were your primary detachment then your Dominus shouldn't have been your warlord. Probably not a major influence on the results of your game but something to watch out for in future.

Ohhhhh that's a good point, I'll definitely note that down.
I didn't end up re-using my Canticles, or re-roll for my Warlord trait, so luckily I didn't end up doing something illegal.

 Buddingsquaw wrote:
I didn't end up re-using my Canticles, or re-roll for my Warlord trait, so luckily I didn't end up doing something illegal.

It's not illegal when we do something wrong and didn't know. Doing something wrong and KNOWING about it is illegal. We all make mistakes, so no big deal. I don't think ANYONE plays a 40K game perfectly 100% according to the rules. Don't sweat it. Learn and have fun.