Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

40k was all but dead in my old area. Asking for 50+ dollars for a 5 man squad that you'll need many duplicates of just killed any potential for newbies. I can only imagine the horrors NZ and Australia went through.

When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW. And I'm a middle-aged adult with disposable income. I can't imagine what a kid of modest means who wanted to play would do...picks a cheaper game, I assume. I don't think kit bashing and converting is something people would naturally gravitate towards or be comfortable with without some guidance.

Yeah, 10 dollars for one figure is well over the top. Even worse in some cases like Tyranid Warriors.

I got shooed out of the local GW store for suggesting to another player that he might get better value for his money if he kitbashed Marauders of Chaos with Cadians for his Cultists, rather than buy another DV set.

I miss the old days.

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

That's pretty common due to the mark up afforded on concessions and the relatively low cost of most CCGs. Not surprising at all.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

All stores do. Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target. but GW likes charging ther boutique prices, compared to going out and competing against other "toys". Plus, GW knows that without a place to play the game, interest in the hobby wanes. Most houses find a 4x6 playing surface, plus space for mini's daunting.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
My flgs posted it's new weekly activities schedule, and while activities dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy are still being run, there are no longer any regular events for 40K. I don't really game there, but it still kinda sucks.

Not too surprising I guess. The flgs is not in an affluent area, and when a single Rhino costs 40 bucks, I'm sure when picking a game for young Johnny to play, many parents are going to pass on 40K.

They will. Yes. Location is key for game stores. I know some folks "always dreamed" of owning one. Easy enough to see why. But good business sense means you gotta go where the money actually is.

FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

All stores do. Warhammer is probably better sold in major outlets like Target. but GW likes charging ther boutique prices, compared to going out and competing against other "toys". Plus, GW knows that without a place to play the game, interest in the hobby wanes. Most houses find a 4x6 playing surface, plus space for mini's daunting.

Agreed. I want nothing more than a dedicated 40k room but my apartment is just not equipped to handle that. Hell, even the 5 bedroom house I lived in with my family before I got a job and moved out didn't really have any one room suited to such a thing.

I also wish GW would, as you say, spread their models elsewhere and charge a sane price to help get people into it more. Even if they sold to Hobby Lobby's and the like, which already sell models and would be appealing to people ALREADY into the modeling hobby to begin with.

I wish local stores could move product other than card games. My local store gets my orders once in a while when I need them, but it's just a small shot in the arm. The models they have on the shelves rarely move (Also doesn't help they have models not many want on their shelves).

It's even worse if you play a horde army. An infantry squad for my Guard runs about $29 here. Doesn't seem bad at first, until you realize you need like 15 of them, and the kit doesn't have half the options for the squad, which requires the purchase of other kits/blister to obtain. I can understand why some stores are dropping it like third period French.

Switch to older editions I'm eyeballing new army that brand new from GW costs me about 155e for 1000 pts army. Add in daemon prince model(you need one anyway) and you are around 1500pts which is plenty. Not too expensive.

Eldar start I got was also roughly same cost and around 900 pts.

If you stick with GW's current rules no wonder you need to keep buying more and more. That's their plan. Cast off chains and take control of your games and most of your problems go away

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

 Griddlelol wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
When I was introduced to 40K, I was strongly encouraged to kitbash, convert, and find ways not to give more money to GW.

If you're going to a local gaming store not dedicated to 40K and named GW, this is a fething gakky attitude to have (hell, even if it is called GW, if you want it to stay open, you're gonna need to buy stuff). They're just trying to make money, and if you want to play there, you need to keep them afloat. I made sure I bought everything from my old FLGS, including getting them to order from FW.

Can you blame them for not bothering with 40K when even people with disposable income have the same attitude as you have?

Umm...You do know "not give money to GW" and "not give money to FLGS" are not mutually exclusive?

Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Here's a thought. Let's say online stores would sell for exact same price. Who would buy from them then if FLGS is available? Less service, same price.

FLGS's need to keep changing to keep up. It's not players job to keep them floating. It's theirs. Same concept that worked in '90's won't go far anymore. Those FLGS's who realize that will survive, those who dont' won't and any artificial attempts like from PP are ultimately going to fail. And result is going to be even worse than if they hadn't tried...

jasper76 wrote:FWIW, the flgs owner has told me he never made much money selling GW products, and that his business currently makes the bulk of its profits from concessions, MtG, and of all things Yu-Gi-Oh.

That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

tneva82 wrote:


Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

 Griddlelol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Anyway nobody should be forced to buy stuff from FLGS for overprice to keep them float. It's FLGS job to come up with ideas players want to spend money there. Simply complaining about others for your trouble isn't going to be working.

Of course they're not forced to, but don't bitch about it if suddenly the shop closes, or stops 40K events. If you want your local store to stay open, you need to spend money there. Assuming it's going to stay around as some sort of free club where you can play with miniatures you bought from eBay is naive.

Again: If store wants to keep up working it can. It might require changing how they operate but if they aren't willing to do that it's stores fault.

Plenty of stores have been able to do that fighting against ebay etc succesfully. How? Adapting. They need to provide value to be had in them. Then money comes in.

I put in happily money in to FLGS. Provided they actually provide something in return that's worth it. Not just "buy from us because...Otherwise we collapse."

Well duh. Those who don't work for their money don't get money. Just because something worked in '90's doesn't mean it works now so better upgrade that style of operation then. You are only 2 decades old fashioned...

My store which is one of the largets o nthe west coast (if not THE largest) has always been supportive of all games, but they have not directly run a 40K event in like 5 years before the one this weekend. We the players have run them ourselves and been allowed to use their space to do it and its mostly been player run things. they have a large staff, and yet...not one of them knows enough about 40K to even try to run an event. the one this weekend had problems, though we resolved them beforehand, and I am REALLY hoping its a harbinger of things to come. It would be nice if i could play more and organize less because i kind of end up organizing a LOT.

GW stuff of all kinds has been drying up near me. There's only one place that still runs routine events that gets any kind of turnout left in the state, and it's thr store in the middle of the largest city in the state. My old haunt used to be disappointed if only 12 people showed up to an event and we used to routinely get 20 or more for monthly tournaments, but pretty much every event of late was cancelled when either only 3 people showed up or nobody signed up at all.

The cost and awful state of the rules have killed the community for the most part.

people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

I mean lets not kid ourselves. We saw the models and said "daaaaayng, those are cool" and then we found out there were RULES for actually PLAYING them and we said "well shoot, i wanna play a Tau Empire force then, they look awesome" or whatever faction it was for you.

And then you learned how to play and had your teeth kicked in about a dozen times while learning, but that was okay because it was just so cool that you could do this.

and then as you start to win, and refine lists and complete collections, we start to lose the sense of wonder and start to slip into our selfishness and our natural inclination to be critical.

And then we start worrying about things that have nothing to do whatsoever with the core truth: these are world class awesome models AND theres rules for playing them. WHUUUUUUUT? But yes!

I have never lost that sense of wonder. i still love that i can play with these things,. Love it. I get annoyed by rules, i like to win like everyone else, but honestly, even if I'm on a bad streak, i keep coming back because its the funnest thing I have done besides Dungeons and Dragons (which is still probably my favorite game to play and likely always will be).

Anywho, the local FLGS needs active promotor personalities with a positive mental attitude to revitalize their stores trade i nthe stuff. Doom and gloom is a self perpetuating fail machine. So get facebook pages and forums started. Delete the negative nancies and start organizing stuff, keeping people informed on stuff and keep it front and center in their minds and the groups will return. they did here. i resurrected this communtiy locally when it was tough to get more than 6 to an event. We now have 20-30. it's great.

But it took someone like me willing to organize and go about THREE extra miles in order to kind of keep in touch and keep people playing and keep people informed.

Its work. it shouldnt be necessary. but the Land of Should is a lonely place. No one lives there and we only occassionally visit. No sense dwelling on Should's. Situation is King and if the situation is dire and you REALLY wanna turn it around, I promise you, you can.

Nobody is demanding perfection from 40k, but if you're having to essentially take on another job, one that ostensibly at least two other entities get paid to do (GW and the FLGS) just to have a chance to engage in a hobby, while fighting steep cost issues and major product flaws (mainly poor rules), that's going to be beyond the means of most people and beyond the desires of almost everyone else, especially for a product aimed at a demographic that isn't typically endowed with such resources. To say nothing of the pitfalls of "deleting negative nancies" and whatever goes on with that.

I did it. labors of love.

My FLGS seems to have the extra heavy markup tax on 40k.
The local "deal" place would sell a Imperial Knight for say $80.
These guys: $170. (??!!)
Made it even more funny with the "Renegade" box set at $190 at the cheap place.

40k is picking up at the local FLGS for gaming but they sure make it REAL hard buying from them with their crazy markup.

GW treats stores like crap their contracts are horrendous for the small business owner it's no wonder with the loss of interest more and more are calling it quits.

Store owners have to go with what makes money and right now that's magic and x-wing.

 Jancoran wrote:
people worry too much about the "styate of 40K". if people would just play and stop wishing life was perfect, it would also probably help.

Well, yes, obviously the quality of a product is going to be less of an issue for people the more they lower their standards...


While the cool models are certainly what drew me into the game in the first place, it was the fact that the rules for playing with them were fun that kept me actually playing up until 6th edition. Issues with the rules can be overlooked if there are enough other positives that keep the game entertaining. But the last two editions went too far in the 'unfun' direction with no increase in the standard of the rules to balance that out... a situation that was just made worse by GW's reluctance to actually support their product.


Their current focus on getting FAQs out and the slowing down of the superfluous printed material cycle has me cautiously optimistic as to what the future may bring... but right now, despite still really loving the miniatures and the background, and really wanting to play this game, it's just too hard to enjoy it.

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

I appreciate your words.

I definitely know where you are coming from. I live about 45 minutes from the closest game store that seems to have a wargaming community. The local store in my town is, in essence, a card shop that also happens to rent videos, and has a small section of GW stuff. I have seen on their events calendar that they have a 40k day on Sundays and I am going to see what I have to work with. The store doesn't seem to have any terrain, just loads of tables that the card gamers play on, but I am determined. I am sick and tired of telling myself that wargaming isn't worth doing because my friends aren't into it (aka no built-in circle of opponents/friends), and I am sick and tired of having to drive an hour to do any sort of gaming. It ends soon and, God help me, I will build a community.

 Coldhatred wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I did it. labors of love.

Congratulations on your success, Janc. You are one of the few who could manage to resurrect a mighty community for a wargame of waning popularity. But your answer to Vakathi's challenge is unhelpful. Not everyone is you.

I'm not special. Try. That's what you can do. Try or quit. I don't have quitting in me. Quitting is a choice. Trying is a choice. Telling people not to try? That's unhelpful.

I appreciate your words.

I definitely know where you are coming from. I live about 45 minutes from the closest game store that seems to have a wargaming community. The local store in my town is, in essence, a card shop that also happens to rent videos, and has a small section of GW stuff. I have seen on their events calendar that they have a 40k day on Sundays and I am going to see what I have to work with. The store doesn't seem to have any terrain, just loads of tables that the card gamers play on, but I am determined. I am sick and tired of telling myself that wargaming isn't worth doing because my friends aren't into it (aka no built-in circle of opponents/friends), and I am sick and tired of having to drive an hour to do any sort of gaming. It ends soon and, God help me, I will build a community.

well my advice to start is get a face book and a forum up. Then start getting people to post there and networking with the players you find. Also ask the owner to put out a flyer promoting the website and the facebook page. Slowly people will filter to it. Keep in the owners ear and getting him more flyers and talking up the fun it is to play. Then hold an event and again use thoe avenues to advertise. Turnout will be small at first so maybe a BBQ Hammer to promote it where its free to play and you provide food and good times as the prize. 1000 points is generally fun and whaty we found was that people REALLY liked the 2 v 2 format as a friendly way to play.

anyways keep at it. it takes time.

EDIT: One more thing: the phone is a wonrous invention. use it to call stores OUT of area so you can see what events they are doing and then make sure to keep your own pool informed on those. news from the front lines can be encouraging to people who are teetering. Sometimes being the one left out is a powerful tipping point motivator.

 Traditio wrote:
That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
That's basically my experience at my FLGS. I don't really buy GW stuff there (other than paint). That said, I do make sure to buy concessions there to "pay my dues," so to speak, for using their gaming tables.

Thus my advice to shop owners.

Keep them canned drinks coming. I'll pay for that.

That 40 dollar kit? No thanks. I can get that for far cheaper on ebay.

Please don't think that buying a can of soda is making any meaningful contribution to a game store. Obviously you have no obligation to pay higher prices for something just to "support your local store", but don't congratulate yourself for how generous you are when you're buying your gaming stuff elsewhere, taking advantage of the free gaming space, and maybe buying a token $1 thing here and there. That's being smug and condescending, not a valued customer and "paying your dues".

If stores want a pay to play model they can start charging for tablespace or offering memberships. If not they'll need to accept that they're not the only game in town for purchasing product and allow people to game withough buying.