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2016/07/13 14:55:12
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
I saw that there were no general threads here unlike other Tactics boards, so here's one for Chaos. A place for people to discuss builds, unit tactics, combos, matchups, and general things about the armies in the alliance.
As of this time, the following Armies are in the Chaos Grand Alliance:
Spoiler:
Everchosen
Slaves to Darkness
Khorne Bloodbound
Tzeentch Arcanites
Nurgle Rotbringers
Daemons of Khorne
Daemons of Tzeentch
Daemons of Nurgle
Daemons of Chaos
Hosts of Slaanesh
Masterclan
The Clans Skryre
The Clans Moulder
The Clans Pestilens
The Clans Eshin
The Clans Verminus
Brayherds
Warherds
Monsters of Chaos
Chaos Gargants
Thunderscorn
Points are coming soon and are available at any store with the General's Handbook (or in less savory places that we shan't discuss here), how are your armies shaping up? Got plans for 1000/2000/2500? What's been working for you, and what's your bane?
2016/07/14 10:48:14
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
I think Chaos matches up decently against Death, ok against Destruction Orruks, Ogors can be a bit of an issue and not as well against Order mainly because of their plethora of shooting. Tzeentch Daemons are a bit of an outlier there as flamer shooting is really good.
I'm looking to get some MP games in this weekend, aimed at fielding this list:
Daemon Prince w/ Lord of War + Chaos Talisman or Favor of the Gods* Herald of Tizz 20 Horrors 20 Horrors 10 Horrors 9 Screamers Burning Chariot Burning Chariot Soul Grinder ---------- 2000
The DP is potentially Undivided, because healing and because I don't gain much from him being a wizard, thanks to the hard limit on spell spamming. Plus I don't get a kickback for taking all Tzeentch Daemons yet, though I look forward to that in a future book Lord of War for buffing horror shooting early, then grinder or screamerstar once things get moving. Thought about Great Destroyer, but being able to buff shooting as well as combat is too legit for Tizz.
*Running the numbers, Talisman is indeed better. Favor is tastier tho, as it brings his wounds up to a properly Tzeentchian 9!
However I'll acknowledge that the AOS crew up here isn't necessarily rolling as deep in armies as I am, so I'm also kicking around these 1k lists:
Daemon Prince 20 Horrors 20 Horrors Soul Grinder ---------- 1000
Smashmouth behemoth list, as I've always pushed for Combat Tizz, often to my chagrin
We're doing Scenario One of the campaign tomorrow night, so I might be forced to do a smaller points value that includes 3x Battleline units (how we're interpreting the 3x 10 models rule, which is pretty painful to ogre players, etc). At which point I might spam some 10-gribble horror units? I feel a little dirty min/maxing them ... but I think that's a holdover from 7-8E, as spamming horrors isn't particularly useful in MP.
For the record, I do own a bunch of flamers, I'm just hesitant to run them, especially in smaller games. Once somebody wants to do 2500 I will certainly plonk them down, but until then I'mma keep that hot fire in the case.
- Salvage
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/14 14:53:15
I don't think taking units of 2 units of 20 Horrors is better than 4 units of 10. The bonus of +1 to hit is lost as soon as you lose one model (though your Icon can possibly mitigate that), and then you have the same models but without the ability to spread out or layer your units.
2016/07/15 14:38:30
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
Eh, I guess I really don't see the purpose of 10 horrors in MP, outside of a Skittles list (i.e. not-monogod) or using the full nuttiness of Silver Tower horrors (pink -> blue -> fiery) to really stick around, as you're not getting much of anything out of the extra casting power, beyond unbinding. 20 horrors I can at least dream of the shooting bonus, and the few synergies in the Tizz subfaction are easier applied to fewer, larger units: Lord of War for +1 to hit, extra casting power from herald, so on. The Lord of Change buffs everybody around him, IIRC, but despite playing Tizz for years I've not even built mine
Anyhoo, you can bet I'll report back with my findings from this weekend Pretty sure I'm facing Ogres tomorrow night, which I am kind of dreading, as an Ogre player myself ...
Cool stuff man, let us know how it goes! There's now much more reason to cheer for each other with the Season of War.
I'll be doing my part with my Daemons. I have a good mix of Nurgle and Tzeentch and will be trying the game out for the first time with them. I really want to try out my GUO supplemented with foot soldiers and shooting, but he's pretty expensive. It'll take some time before we really know how points affect the internal balance of which units are good or bad, so I'm just gonna try things and see what happens.
2016/07/15 17:33:29
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
auticus wrote: My conundrum is playing for the most part bloodbound khorne and dealing with things like retributor death stars and gunlines.
Both of those things pwn me pretty hard right now.
I've incorporated trolls into my list with Throgg to help.
Skull cannons help with both, or hellcannons if you really need the artillery power. Retributor deathstar specifically gets countered pretty well by massed bloodreavers (with bloodsecrator in range, or inspiring presence failing that) simply because while the reavers all die they tend to be worth far less than what they killed. Wrathmongers will deal with retributors well too (again, they'll die but the rets will swing on their own unit with +1 attack). Gun lines in general are tricky for Khorne, Skarbrand is the best counter i know of since he sponges all of the shooting and will still obliterate units even at 1 wound.
Also, if you roll for initiative, don't. Double-turns hand the win to gun line armies.
I've used the reavers to tie up retributors before yes. But they typically do 16-20 points of damage per TURN so a unit of 20 reavers is typically all going to die on the first turn they fight.
Artillery is also good. But those start delving beyond the khorne keyword. (the skull cannons are decent but they need screened effectively as the stormcast player will hone in on killing them first)
2016/07/15 19:24:56
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
auticus wrote: I've used the reavers to tie up retributors before yes. But they typically do 16-20 points of damage per TURN so a unit of 20 reavers is typically all going to die on the first turn they fight.
Artillery is also good. But those start delving beyond the khorne keyword. (the skull cannons are decent but they need screened effectively as the stormcast player will hone in on killing them first)
Yeah if they are really shooty then you kinda need Skull Cannons + Skarbrand. They have to shoot Skarbrand simply because he will roll through the whole army if they don't. Give him the chaos item for +1 attack on carnage for extra lols (or triple lols if you have him in Bloodsecrator range).
EDIT - I wrote the following because I was so used to facing this OP Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch Battalion, but it was actually completely nerfed with the new Rule of One which both I and my opponent failed to account for even in our last Season of War game. Thus, until that's fixed with a new book giving Tzeentch new spells, I wouldn't worry about this. When such a book comes out, I would start worrying about this all over again. Putting whole post into spoiler as it probably isn't relevant until such a time.
Spoiler:
Hi, I wish to contribute because I think I'm coming in with a different perspective: that of your opponent's.
Please consider this because this is a very "Know Your Enemy" post. It might be valuable to know what your opponent dreads above all else. All my AoS playing friends play Chaos of the traditional 4 colours. The reason is they're mostly 40k players giving AoS a chance, they already have the models so they're very open to AoS. Mono-Khorne, -Slaanesh, -Nurgle, -Tzeentch, I usually do fine, I have like a 75% win rate against Chaos, all except:
The Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch, specifically with:
1 x Daemon Prince (though this can probably be a Lord of Change if you like)
1 x Herald of Tzeentch
3 x Pink Horrors (it happens our resident Tzeentch just keeps a MSU of 10)
1 x Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
With the new General's Handbook, you do pay a points cost for the Battalion effect on top of the required units, but as I'll explain, it more than pays for itself. It also fits under 1,000 points, but CAN scale up IMHO.
I'll briefly explain why this simple setup works. It comes down to something obvious: Magic is obviously awesome, but this army almost breaks the game by giving it to almost everyone in it.
Because Magic simply allows for additional attacks during the Hero Phase, but thus it's usually reserved for Heroes. Not so here. A Pink Horror unit, no matter the size, is already a Wizard. In my experience Arcane Bolts cause more damage than most other things just because they're Mortal Wounds that blow past most saving throws. The trade-off seems to be minimal as the Daemon Prince remains a great close combatant on top of having Magic, and Pink Horrors are reasonably priced ranged attackers even before considering the fact they can throw an additional Arcane Bolt. Result - by these non-Heroes being able to use the Hero Phase, you'd already coming ahead before other considerations.
The reason is almost every unit in this list is a Wizard, obviously a competitive advantage for Tzeentch, but every other army (except maybe the Lizardmen) have some sort of cap on how many Wizards they can field. Usually they're reserved for our Heroes, and there have always been some sort of limitation (like even before the points system of the General's Handbook, it was more optimal to have a mix of units), and now with AoS's equivalent of a Force Organisation Chart and points cost, there's a definite cap to how many Wizards most armies could take (1-4 Leaders, Wizards are generally pretty pricey). Result - your opponent cannot concentrate on any single magical threat, he just has to endure it all, and I find I can't attrition that long.
Also, Wizards counter other Wizards, because they can unbind spells. Anyone trying to fight spellfire with spellfire is at a disadvantage as almost all of your units can negate spells. There is a distance limitation, thus spamming so many of things like Pink Horrors everywhere effectively neuters my own spellcasters. Result - not only are you great at magic, you essentially make me bad at it.
--- thus, even these units by themselves are very competitive, than the Battalion practically makes it game-breaking ---
The 1st benefit of the Battalion gives 1 extra spell per Wizard. This includes each unit of Pink Horrors.
The formation effectively doubles everyone's spellcasting. In effect, that's almost like giving a "Buy 1 Get 1 Free" Wizard. There IS a points cost for this Battalion...which works out to be the cost of a single Wizard in other armies. However, since this formation has 5 Wizards (1 Daemon Prince + 1 Herald + 3 Pink Horrors), you actually get 5 more for the price of 1. I know it's imperfect as it's still just an extra spell on the same unit...but any other army would salivate over the idea of their few Wizards gaining an extra spell. Result - you already get a great deal, it's a no-brainer.
But more spells aren't just an additional benefit; IMHO, it's a Force Multiplier. The ability for all these units to cast spells on themselves or each other more freely gives you many more strategic options. If you need sheer damage-dealing, Arcane Bolt all around. If you need to hold a position, Mystic Shield on everyone. Most of the time, our resident Tzeentch player just attempts to cast 1 Arcane Bolt and 1 Mystic Shield each turn, they fail 1/3 of the time, but it's still way ahead. Result - in addition to just sheer unit value (like you know how people complain certain armies' units are under-costed), you get great strategic value on top of that.
The 2nd benefit of the Battalion is that when a unit (a Daemon Prince, 10 Pink Horrors) gets wiped out...you have a 1/6 chance they come back immediately for free.
There are 7 units in this formation, each of them about the same cost as the Battalion bonus. Chances are, at least 1 of these will return in the game for free. If all the extra spellcasting and strategic value seem too abstract to you, this is almost a direct ROI. Result - I know it's chance-based, but this is direct proof the Battalion bonus is an investment that usually pays itself off.
The 3rd benefit is, with the General's Handbook, having a Battalion gives you an additional Artefact. That's a bit of a caveat hidden in the Artefact description.
Artefacts are really quite useful. In a 1000 point game, which this Battalion bonus and all the pre-requisite units fits comfortably into, you gain an additional Artefact to put on your Herald. Let's say you want 2,000 points...if you take this Battalion twice, you equip the 2nd Daemon Prince with another Artefact. Result - that's just icing on the cake, on a cake that is already so covered in icing it looks like an iceberg.
---
To recap, here's what you get with the Daemon Cohort of Tzeentch:
- Great units because they're all top tier units to begin with, plus they're almost all Wizards
- A competitive advantage against almost all other armies because they can only take a few Wizards
- Your sheer truckload of Wizards effectively limit enemy Wizards as you can cancel their spells
- Then you get 2x as much Wizarding per Wizard
- More Wizarding per Wizard gives you more flexibility in terms of strategic options
- Even when any one of your Wizards die...they can come back for free
- And here's a free Artefact for you while you're at it
Please be reminded I'm not a guy that's really proud of his army list. I'm the guy who faced a lot of the units you're discussing, and you make real good points, and I'm not arguing against anything here. I'm just sharing, as the guy on the other side of the table, what really screws me up over everything else, and what everyone in my meta seems to be struggling most against. Sometimes that's the most telling information, and I share these painful experiences with you, mainly because I don't think I have to fight against you. I do apologise to your opponents, though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/17 00:45:02
The batallion feels good, but the Rule of One really hurt all Wizards and Tzeentch included. Not being able to blast out a Mystic Shield from every unit makes the batallion feel a bit more meh, especially when the Horrors don't have a spell of their own. It'll become very powerful if Tzeentch Daemons get their own book with a Lore like Sylvaneth get, but until then you're just paying points for the unbinding (admittedly good), respawning (unreliable, but can fix it with Fatey) and the Artifact. All of which is good, but you have to weigh that against the points.
2016/07/17 00:41:26
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
Requizen wrote: The batallion feels good, but the Rule of One really hurt all Wizards and Tzeentch included. Not being able to blast out a Mystic Shield from every unit makes the batallion feel a bit more meh, especially when the Horrors don't have a spell of their own. It'll become very powerful if Tzeentch Daemons get their own book with a Lore like Sylvaneth get, but until then you're just paying points for the unbinding (admittedly good), respawning (unreliable, but can fix it with Fatey) and the Artifact. All of which is good, but you have to weigh that against the points.
This is true and I'm sorry I missed it. Thanks for correcting me.
The Rule of One is new and I failed to account for it, because I was used to the spell spam our resident Tzeentch player did. He unfortunately didn't play it correctly as he spammed the same spells over and over in our most recent game because we were using the store copy of General's Handbook, and I think he was so focused on the points cost he actually overlooked this new rule. The store manager was so focused on learning the Season of War scenario I think he forgot to call him out on it.
And I absolutely agree, until a new book introduces either more spells for all or at least for Tzeentch, this Battalion is effectively nerfed. Appending my above post.
I am totally feeling the suck of the One Rule for Tizz daemons, for Horrors most of all. Points are embarrassingly high for a unit that isn't going to do much until their lore arrives. Sadly for me they're my only Battleline option
I mean, they also sucked in 8E - largely due to their lore! - but at least they could tarpit back then. Now ... I don't know, weaksauce fire shots ftw?
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/19 17:33:27
Eh, if nothing else they're one of the few ranged Battleline units Chaos has (only ranged?), and about on par with other ranged Battleline units points-wise.
While you may not cast with each unit every turn, it's still good to have multiples. It takes the pressure off of your Heroes to cast Bolt/Shield by spreading out the units able to cast them. Heralds of Tzeentch can only cast 1 per turn, and if they cast their unique power, you can then use a nearby unit of Horrors to do Bolt/Shield.
I don't think they're bad at all. Not the most amazing base unit, but solid enough.
2016/07/19 19:53:13
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
If you need help dealing with stormcast take a bullgors. Give them the great weapons and watch the stormcast burn.
My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly
2016/07/25 01:28:15
Subject: Grand Alliance Chaos General Tactica and Discussion
Ungor Raiders get battleline if you run exclusively brayherd, and they are a ridiculously good shooting unit. Run and shoot, bonus move at the start of the game, potential to ambush them in if you add another unit of ungors and formation too.
The real pain comes from a pack of 30, rerolls of 1 and 2 to hit. Plonk a Beastlord with the Lord of war trait for only 80 points next to them, and you get 30 rerollable shots because they hit on a 3+ thanks to the Beastlord, I usually get 13 wounds out of that unit in a turn. They comfortably take entire units off the table, not bad for 80 point battleline.
Lord of War for buffing horror shooting early, then grinder or screamerstar once things get moving. Thought about Great Destroyer, but being able to buff shooting as well as combat is too legit for Tizz.
