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Yaho,

So the Haemotrope Reactor is coming/is here and makes plasma guns Actually Quite Good whilst discarding Tau, Skitarii, and several other variations on 'plasma' by limiting it to the ones on pg 177 of the BRB.

Now, as my av indicates i'm a Ryzan at heart and a profound plasma junky so my 20 plas devs suddenly have a reason to burst out laughing against their grav dev counterparts, and my highly quantifiable plasma vet guardsmen are suddenly Quite Scary with ignores cover. However this is a bit of a skewed perspective so lets hear it from the floor.

Is plasma now good enough for you to include it in your army?

Overheating on 1-2 makes it a no-go. Taking a cover save when claiming the Reactor for cover seems like a really, really bad idea. Finally, vehicles and monstrous creatures can't use it for cover. At 40 points for two Reactors? Nah. I think an Aegis Defense Line is better.

War convocation and no get's hot rolls on kataphron's destroyer can make a funny combo .

Lord Perversor wrote:
War convocation and no get's hot rolls on kataphron's destroyer can make a funny combo .

Yes, but as malamis said the exact wording is "Any plasma weapon (as defined in Warhammer 40,00: The Rules)" so people are already saying it doesn't affect plasma culverins or plasma calivers...

beast_gts wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
War convocation and no get's hot rolls on kataphron's destroyer can make a funny combo .

Yes, but as malamis said the exact wording is "Any plasma weapon (as defined in Warhammer 40,00: The Rules)" so people are already saying it doesn't affect plasma culverins or plasma calivers...

The exact wording is in Codex:space marines about salamanders and flamer weapons or Codex:inquisition with the ulumeathi weapon, and the GW draft FAQ, seems to think otherwise.

the main issue it's just the rulebook, don't truly define what a plasma weapons is just says:
"This section covers some of the most common (or notorious) weapons of Warhammer 40,000 and serves as both reference and example for some of the tools of death you will encounter"

So according to it, the rulebook it's incomplete about all plasma weapons and just providing examples, wich would further move the issue into basic vs advanced? (because my Codex says so? ) Again one of the issues of not really tight rules.


I do agree that unless you can avoid Gets Hot it's a pretty bad choice unless you can trust in a 2+ save, since the upgrade to blast means you can't use twin-link or reroll to avoid the 1-2 result on the dice, so only way to use it with a bit of safety it's with a psyker behind granting armour save re-roll along a decent armor.

I could see it being useful for CSM's. Imagine 9 obliterators in their special formation. First they fire plasma cannons, then they fire plasma guns, in the same turn with their formation bonus. That's a lot of dakka. Give them mark of tzeench and you don't even need the cover save. For those pesky gets hot rolls they have 2 wounds and 2+ armor.

You can soul-swap with a plazma reactor.

Relic Predator Demios with Plasma Destroyer 135. Haematrope Reactor, 40. 3x 5" blasts with no gets hot and a 4+ cover save... priceless.


That said, if I see a few of these things in an ad mech list with kataphrons, it's a pre-game handshake for sure... as if convocation wasn't bad enough.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Relic Predator Demios with Plasma Destroyer 135. Haematrope Reactor, 40. 3x 5" blasts with no gets hot and a 4+ cover save... priceless.


That said, if I see a few of these things in an ad mech list with kataphrons, it's a pre-game handshake for sure... as if convocation wasn't bad enough.

Nope.
It states "as defined in BRB". BRB then lists Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon under Plasma Weapons.
So RAW it only works for those 3, not pulse rifles, not plasma calivers and all that fancy gak.
You can argue that the BRB says that there are many variations, but imo that is the balancing factor. Otherwise it would be absolutely insane.

Why do we have a duplicate threat with the same discussion... :\


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For mork sake its is even started by the same guy as who opposed the general consensus in the previous thread.

This is the GW FAQ for what is a plasma weapon. It is hidden in a FAQ about an inq item that has exactly the same wording as the new reactors.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Relic Predator Demios with Plasma Destroyer 135. Haematrope Reactor, 40. 3x 5" blasts with no gets hot and a 4+ cover save... priceless.

Like said in the first few post of this thread it does excludes vehicles. The Relic Predator Demios was still a vehicle the last time I checked.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Spoiler:

As far as i can tell, Plazma Syphone =/= Haemotrope Reactor

Nope but plasma weapon = plasma weapon.So sure you could claim that by RAW the FAQ for the siphon doesn't work for the reactors but we all know that this isn't the strongest position ever since GW is clearly trying to explain what a plasma weapon is and to top it off this is a duplicate thread of this one -> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/708068.page

Think this reactors (specially with that low cost) will be banned from every single competitive games haha. Damn, even not sure if any group of friends will allow (mine not at least xD)

The buff it provides is to damn insane...And not only an insane buff...it only affects to certain armies while others can use it. That is totally unfair since there are armies with weapons that are plasma but with different names "because lore" (like ork ones)

Plasma Culverins, Deimos Pattern Plasma Cannon etc fall under "Plasma Weapons"
The only reason that section is in the BRB is due to Inquisition Players Making Tau Players Cry with the Plasma Syphon (as pulse weapons were originally classed as plasma weapons)

 commander dante wrote:
Plasma Culverins, Deimos Pattern Plasma Cannon etc fall under "Plasma Weapons"
The only reason that section is in the BRB is due to Inquisition Players Making Tau Players Cry with the Plasma Syphon (as pulse weapons were originally classed as plasma weapons)

Not strictly true; the BRB weapons catalogue is, effectively, the imperium's joint arsenal. With maybe 3 exceptions the weapons listed are used by two of one or more SM codices, AM/IG and Inquisition, with options on SoB and so forth.

While the plasma weapon = plasma weapon position does have some credit, they've already addressed the 'fortification bonus applying to specific weapons' thing with the promethium relay pipes, saying that BRB flamers are the only type of flamers that benefit.

FAQ Templates & Blasts point 11
11 Q: Are alien and daemonic flame weapons like Ork burnas, Flames of Tzeentch, Baleful Torrent, etc., treated as flamer weapons for rules that interact with them?
A: Only if the entry in their codex specifically notes it is a flamer weapon as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

The answer being a glib side step because to my knowledge, there is no such classification in any codex.

FAQ Terrain point 18
18 Q: Do all flamer weapons benefit from the Fuel Siphon special rule for the Promethium Relay Pipes? Some of them are a bit contentious.
A: All weapons that are specifically noted as being flamer weapons receive the benefit of the Promethium Pipes special rule.

which, I would suggest, means plasma weapons have to be explicitely classed as plasma weapons to benefit from rules that interact with plasma weapons. The plasma siphon is the exception because they came out and said it was the exception.

This is steadily drifting into YMDC, admittedly because if 'plasma *' = plasma weapon the Haemotrope is quite possibly game changing

But plazma is obviously not plazma unless it says it's plazma which it doesn't cause it thought it's plazma but it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Franarok wrote:
Think this reactors (specially with that low cost) will be banned from every single competitive games haha. Damn, even not sure if any group of friends will allow (mine not at least xD)

The buff it provides is to damn insane...And not only an insane buff...it only affects to certain armies while others can use it. That is totally unfair since there are armies with weapons that are plasma but with different names "because lore" (like ork ones)

Why should it? Everyone's allready running around with invis, 2++ re-rollable and 1-st turn soul-swap assault deathstars. It will only hurt regular fun armies. And you can only see fun armies in friendly games after negotiation, so you can ban anything you want there.

Also, you're able to lower it's toughness and than insta-kill it, poison it and probably tank-shock and as it can't move it's going to be removed from play. But it's debatable.

Well.. because Plasmaphrons and Plasma Vanguard will be insane. Like literally.

Plasmaphrons are 12 5" Plasma Blasts without gets hot for 425 pts with 24 wounds on a T5 relentless plattform... That's heavy.

Vanguard are just as absurd with 6 3" blasts for 55pts with a - 1 cover mod.
Double that up with Rangers for the same thing with 65pts...

So 12 5" plasma and 12(18) 3" plasma for a total cost of...
585 pts. No gets hot. -1 Cover.
I don't know what else in the game does put out that kind of firepower for that amount of points. Add in SR like Canticles and Doctrina and... well. Yeah, friendly handshake.
The only way to deal with this is go first and blow up the reactor. Otherwise... That's enough wounds to rip anything that is not AV 14 apart.

 koooaei wrote:


Also, you're able to lower it's toughness and than insta-kill it, poison it and probably tank-shock and as it can't move it's going to be removed from play. But it's debatable.

You can't Tank shock Fortifications. At best, you could Ram it. This begs the question of how do you resolve a Ram against something without AV?

 Tamwulf wrote:
Overheating on 1-2 makes it a no-go. Taking a cover save when claiming the Reactor for cover seems like a really, really bad idea. Finally, vehicles and monstrous creatures can't use it for cover. At 40 points for two Reactors? Nah. I think an Aegis Defense Line is better.

Depends on the unit really. Plasma on Chaos Obliterators is going to be awesome with this. Sure it overheats on a 1-2 but you are then making a 2+ save on a multiwound model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
I could see it being useful for CSM's. Imagine 9 obliterators in their special formation. First they fire plasma cannons, then they fire plasma guns, in the same turn with their formation bonus. That's a lot of dakka. Give them mark of tzeench and you don't even need the cover save. For those pesky gets hot rolls they have 2 wounds and 2+ armor.

This. Definitely this.

 EnTyme wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


Also, you're able to lower it's toughness and than insta-kill it, poison it and probably tank-shock and as it can't move it's going to be removed from play. But it's debatable.

You can't Tank shock Fortifications. At best, you could Ram it. This begs the question of how do you resolve a Ram against something without AV?

It's not a Fortification.

It's "Battlefield Debris".

 malamis wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
Plasma Culverins, Deimos Pattern Plasma Cannon etc fall under "Plasma Weapons"
The only reason that section is in the BRB is due to Inquisition Players Making Tau Players Cry with the Plasma Syphon (as pulse weapons were originally classed as plasma weapons)

Not strictly true; the BRB weapons catalogue is, effectively, the imperium's joint arsenal. With maybe 3 exceptions the weapons listed are used by two of one or more SM codices, AM/IG and Inquisition, with options on SoB and so forth.

While the plasma weapon = plasma weapon position does have some credit, they've already addressed the 'fortification bonus applying to specific weapons' thing with the promethium relay pipes, saying that BRB flamers are the only type of flamers that benefit.

FAQ Templates & Blasts point 11
11 Q: Are alien and daemonic flame weapons like Ork burnas, Flames of Tzeentch, Baleful Torrent, etc., treated as flamer weapons for rules that interact with them?
A: Only if the entry in their codex specifically notes it is a flamer weapon as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

The answer being a glib side step because to my knowledge, there is no such classification in any codex.

FAQ Terrain point 18
18 Q: Do all flamer weapons benefit from the Fuel Siphon special rule for the Promethium Relay Pipes? Some of them are a bit contentious.
A: All weapons that are specifically noted as being flamer weapons receive the benefit of the Promethium Pipes special rule.

which, I would suggest, means plasma weapons have to be explicitely classed as plasma weapons to benefit from rules that interact with plasma weapons. The plasma siphon is the exception because they came out and said it was the exception.

This is steadily drifting into YMDC, admittedly because if 'plasma *' = plasma weapon the Haemotrope is quite possibly game changing

There's a little section in each Codex (or at least each modern Codex) that says "These weapons are Flamer Weapons". At least, it's in the 'Crons Codex.

If I played Guard, this would give reason to run Plasma Cannon Servitors in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company.

120 points gets you a Techpriest, 2 Plasma Cannons, and 2 bulletcatchers.

The formation let's you twin-link against one enemy target that is within 18" of a friendly unit with vox-caster. So you get two twin-linked pieplates (meaning you reroll gets hot).

And of course, you can Order the Servitors with Fire On My Target so they Ignore Cover.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Why do we have a duplicate threat with the same discussion... :\


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For mork sake its is even started by the same guy as who opposed the general consensus in the previous thread.

This is the GW FAQ for what is a plasma weapon. It is hidden in a FAQ about an inq item that has exactly the same wording as the new reactors.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Relic Predator Demios with Plasma Destroyer 135. Haematrope Reactor, 40. 3x 5" blasts with no gets hot and a 4+ cover save... priceless.

Like said in the first few post of this thread it does excludes vehicles. The Relic Predator Demios was still a vehicle the last time I checked.

The most amusing thing on that list in the FAQ in my opinion is the Plasma grenade. You have to have a pretty good throwing arm to avoid nuking yourself with that.

watching gammes using it and reading ways to exploit it making wombo combos makes me feel 100% sure that no group or tournament wil lallow the use of this hahaha


Is freakingly insane. Guess the "scholar" member on GW who did this is not working more there haha

A Question NOBODY has asked....
What About Tau Plasma Rifles?

The Reactors rule states "The Weapon Gets Hot! On rolls of 1-2, instead of just 1"
Plasma Rifles dont have Gets Hot! To begin with...

(Oh god i could just imagine a big squad of Battlesuits with 2 Plasma Rifles, Stim Injectors and Target Locks) (SHUDDERS)

 commander dante wrote:
A Question NOBODY has asked....
What About Tau Plasma Rifles?

The Reactors rule states "The Weapon Gets Hot! On rolls of 1-2, instead of just 1"
Plasma Rifles dont have Gets Hot! To begin with...

(Oh god i could just imagine a big squad of Battlesuits with 2 Plasma Rifles, Stim Injectors and Target Locks) (SHUDDERS)

Part of the bigger BRB Plasma is Plasma debate, but yeah this would be particularly unpleasant. It would go against the tau principle of never staying still with battlesuits.

 commander dante wrote:
A Question NOBODY has asked....
What About Tau Plasma Rifles?

The Reactors rule states "The Weapon Gets Hot! On rolls of 1-2, instead of just 1"
Plasma Rifles dont have Gets Hot! To begin with...

(Oh god i could just imagine a big squad of Battlesuits with 2 Plasma Rifles, Stim Injectors and Target Locks) (SHUDDERS)

Sadly, the special rule that using the blast upgrade will overrule the standard weapon profile, so it will gets hot on 1's and 2s. and since its a blast now, you roll before firing, so you won't get to re-roll it unless you TL which most tau players bring 2 of each weapon, not 1 TL.

Markerlights could make some extra deadly -1s plasma cannons

So I got my technosnails today.

First and most important detail which was a surprise to everyone including some of my local GW staff is that they are HUGE.

As in you easily get 75% obscured for a knight with these, blocked line of sight for chimera chassis (Wyverns HO!), and maybe even the shorter Baneblade variants if angled right.

The model itself has some really nice slot + slide customisation options with the piping, exaust and so on, and i'm seriously considering getting the Prometheum Relay + Void shield setup as it's a joy to build.

So rules aside, i'd recommend these.

Having actually played with them.....

6 overheats in one plasma dev squad with 2 fatalities in 2 turns :|