Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Post-Chapterhouse, we've seen GW gradually move towards a design policy where armies do not get rules unless the models are already there. The most notable example of this was when Asdrubael Vect and other DE Special Characters got the axe in the 7e Codex, as well as the removal of Mycetic Spores from the 6th edition Tyranid Codex, but a more subtle grievance is also at play.

Many new kits/models that GW releases have no options or next to no options. For example, many Dark Eldar wargear restrictions are now only because the options are for certain kits. Want a Venom Blade for your Bike Arena champ? No luck! Although Genestealer Cults have an armory, other than Characters with Relics, and copypasted IG vehicles, only one unit actually has access to that armory in the first place! It's not like you're going to want a Primus with a Web Pistol or Power Pick or anything...

With Wrath of Magnus, Rubric Marine Sorcerers lost access to Force Axes and Force Swords, as the new model only got a Staff. Tzaangors are a monopose clampack with their only option being to replace a CCW with an Autopistol...when the main point of the unit is a formation to let them run and charge!

I understand protecting their IP from another Chapterhouse case, but excessive restrictions on wargear and unit loadouts are no fun, as is kitbashing. If I wanted to play a game where all my options were laid out before me, I knew all my troops carried the exact same combination of rifle/pistol/etc, that I would never see a Dreadnought with an Autocannon unless it was also carrying a hammer, etc, I would have switched to Warmachine years ago!

Welcome to 40k. Where IG vets can use 3 melta or plasmas yet the 10 man kit only comes with one.

Tbh i don't really know what they're up too. Simplyfying new releases slowly?

I think it's just a continuation of the same "streamlining" that's been going on since the move from 4th to 5th (as far as I know since I started back in 4th) where they started to get rid of armouries and put the options more on the unit themselves. Not that it was bad then because it did actually make list building a bit easier, but there's a point it can get to where they start oversimplifying things. There's plenty of kits out there like the above mentioned as well where they have the option of taking multiple of a weapon yet will only come with one of it anyway; like the scions for example.

If their strategy were to avoid 3rd parties making alternatives, it would be a better move to include multiples of options rather than one but also upgrading older models which would likely look like they were tossed together by a 5 year old compared to some of the alternatives around. Warp spiders for example.

 n0t_u wrote:
I think it's just a continuation of the same "streamlining" that's been going on since the move from 4th to 5th (as far as I know since I started back in 4th) where they started to get rid of armouries and put the options more on the unit themselves. Not that it was bad then because it did actually make list building a bit easier, but there's a point it can get to where they start oversimplifying things. There's plenty of kits out there like the above mentioned as well where they have the option of taking multiple of a weapon yet will only come with one of it anyway; like the scions for example.

If their strategy were to avoid 3rd parties making alternatives, it would be a better move to include multiples of options rather than one but also upgrading older models which would likely look like they were tossed together by a 5 year old compared to some of the alternatives around. Warp spiders for example.

It did start in 4th and everyone hated it, it's what created the awful 4th ed codex for CSM and split apart them and CD.

It makes sense from a corporate point of view, even if it hurts the buyer. Sell a Skitarii Vanguard set separately from a Ranger set (increased cost and two boxes take up more space on a store shelf), or include the option to build either. Want to maximize your Special Weapons loadout? Well now you have to grab another box (or two) which again results in more sales.

I've faced this dilemma with my last two armies (Skitarii/Militarum Tempestus), but at least it was mitigated a bit with the MT since 4/5ths of their army is contained in a single Start Collecting box. Kinda hard to give your Commissar a Bolt Gun though for WYSIWYG when your only options are a Power Sword with Bolt Pistol/Plasma Pistol.

I do agree that at a minimum each option(s) in the Weapons Listing should be provided for that unit out of a single box. My first army was Orks and there was never a shortage of bits. I didn't have an issue with the Trukk only coming with a Shoota when I could slice off a Rocket from my Nobz.

I find that it's most annoying on characters. Deathwatch Vets have an enormous list of possible loadouts and gear, and fluff-wise they have more varied equipment than anyone else in the Imperium. So what does the Watch Master get?
Nothing. Nothing at all. He can't take bikes, he can't take Terminator armor, he can't take a jump pack. I'm glad that his stock weapon is pretty good, but it's locked in - Unless you replace his weapon with a relic (which is just a bad idea), it's your only choice.

It at least made sense for Grey Knights, since they're supposed to be Terminators almost exclusively, and GK characters still get all the other options that anyone else does, but for the Watch Master he's just frustratingly hard to use because he can't synergize with anyone in the army.

I was under the impression that it was a snap panic judgement call immediately after the Chapterhouse lawsuit (with Dark Eldar copping the worst of it as theirs was the next codex to be released).

After Dark Eldar, have we seen similar codex releases with as stringent 'no model, no rules' applied or has it got a little better?

Uhh, just want to point something out.

If they wanted to remove all options completely from model-building, they could simply abandon the idea of having us build and paint our own models, and provide all models not as kits, but instead as more high-quality versions of stuff like what we got in games like MageKnight or D&D Adventures (I'm probably dating myself, but after I got into WH40k 15 years ago I never even tried any other tabletop games, so I'm short on recent examples). And yeah, you CAN provide high-quality models if you're willing to put enough resources into it, because I've seen some 300 dollar (I think) 10" tall miniatures being advertised in YouTube videos, and god damn is it amazing what people can make. They could simply reduce size and quality to make them appropriately expensive (those expensive models also have many parts that can move, which you wouldn't need to do most of the time for WH40k models).

I think we're safe from GW being evil in that regard now.

Also, uh, how recent are Grav-weapons? Before or after Chapterhouse?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 drunken0elf wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Where IG vets can use 3 melta or plasmas yet the 10 man kit only comes with one.

Tbh i don't really know what they're up too. Simplyfying new releases slowly?

Do they not have the weapon kits on their site where you can just buy like 5 meltaguns and nothing else anymore?

 drunken0elf wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Where IG vets can use 3 melta or plasmas yet the 10 man kit only comes with one.

Tbh i don't really know what they're up too. Simplyfying new releases slowly?

The 10 man kit doesn't actually come with even 1 of those options haha.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Post-Chapterhouse

Is **that** what this is all about? I thought they were doing it to trim the game back a bit, maybe as a prelude to fixing the enduring issue of Codex consistency and silencing whingers. I suppose I should've known better.

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Post-Chapterhouse

Is **that** what this is all about? I thought they were doing it to trim the game back a bit, maybe as a prelude to fixing the enduring issue of Codex consistency and silencing whingers. I suppose I should've known better.

When you file a C&D order against someone infringing on your copyrights, they fight back, and you, the owner of the copyright, LOSE the court case, you start reconsidering the idea of what is and is not actually YOUR intellectual property.

Not sure if this will become a full tendency.
Clampack models and units with no options make life for GW much easier. Its the simplest business model one could think of.

 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Post-Chapterhouse

Is **that** what this is all about? I thought they were doing it to trim the game back a bit, maybe as a prelude to fixing the enduring issue of Codex consistency and silencing whingers. I suppose I should've known better.

When you file a C&D order against someone infringing on your copyrights, they fight back, and you, the owner of the copyright, LOSE the court case, you start reconsidering the idea of what is and is not actually YOUR intellectual property.

Or you get better lawyers.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Post-Chapterhouse

Is **that** what this is all about? I thought they were doing it to trim the game back a bit, maybe as a prelude to fixing the enduring issue of Codex consistency and silencing whingers. I suppose I should've known better.

When you file a C&D order against someone infringing on your copyrights, they fight back, and you, the owner of the copyright, LOSE the court case, you start reconsidering the idea of what is and is not actually YOUR intellectual property.

Or you get better lawyers.

Better Lawyers cost more money and GW are cheapskates at the best of times.

 n0t_u wrote:
Or you get better lawyers.

Well, yeah, or that.

I dunno if GW did that though. But it sounds like they started changing their model range to take into account that their grasp on their IP was a bit loose.

Honestly, I didn't read the Chapterhouse court stuff, and I don't want to since it lasted years...

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

If that happened (dunno if it did or not or even if it would be a good argument anyone would try to make ever), you can kinda see why GW might've tightened up on what rules they put out, yeah?

 drunken0elf wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Where IG vets can use 3 melta or plasmas yet the 10 man kit only comes with one.

Tbh i don't really know what they're up too. Simplyfying new releases slowly?

As someone else already said it doesn't even come with one, it only comes with flamers and a grenade launcher (unless you get the catachan box which just has flamers). You have to buy the command set to get one of each and even then the only heavy option available is the Heavy Flamer.

Then it gets even worse with only some of the heavy weapons being available in metal to fill the gap.... want a melta steel legionnaire? Nope. And the only real way to kit bash it is to buy the space marine plasma gun or melta set.

 Pouncey wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Or you get better lawyers.

Well, yeah, or that.

I dunno if GW did that though. But it sounds like they started changing their model range to take into account that their grasp on their IP was a bit loose.

Honestly, I didn't read the Chapterhouse court stuff, and I don't want to since it lasted years...

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

If that happened (dunno if it did or not or even if it would be a good argument anyone would try to make ever), you can kinda see why GW might've tightened up on what rules they put out, yeah?

The guy in charge of their legal left earlier this year. And yeh it makes sense, from what I heard about the case the reason GW may have lost might have come down to them not understanding what they can and can't hold onto as IP. They really can't stop people making alternatives, but at least they can try to slow lost sales due to not being able to sell a model later when they finally make it. Honestly it just seems a bit dumb to make rules but not a model or even a guide to make a nice stand in for it though and maybe that case was a wake up call to GW.

Or it could be a bit of; 'it's Privateer Press's business model, and it seems to work for them. . .'

I hear Rogue Stars is a fine ruleset for skirmish levle gaming and you can pick the loadout on your miniatures.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Or you get better lawyers.

Well, yeah, or that.

I dunno if GW did that though. But it sounds like they started changing their model range to take into account that their grasp on their IP was a bit loose.

Honestly, I didn't read the Chapterhouse court stuff, and I don't want to since it lasted years...

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

If that happened (dunno if it did or not or even if it would be a good argument anyone would try to make ever), you can kinda see why GW might've tightened up on what rules they put out, yeah?

The guy in charge of their legal left earlier this year. And yeh it makes sense, from what I heard about the case the reason GW may have lost might have come down to them not understanding what they can and can't hold onto as IP. They really can't stop people making alternatives, but at least they can try to slow lost sales due to not being able to sell a model later when they finally make it. Honestly it just seems a bit dumb to make rules but not a model or even a guide to make a nice stand in for it though and maybe that case was a wake up call to GW.

Interestingly, the "power/force sword/axe/mace/lance/staff/whatever" problem could've been solved by GW doing literally nothing about power weapons, or simply reducing them to AP3 once melee weapon profiles happened.

Doing nothing is literally the easiest thing possible. There are an infinite number of things you're doing right now. Yes, you. That weird-looking person in front of the screen. I can see you. I have access to your webcam. Smile while I take a screenshot.

Haha, no, I'm just joking. Literally everyone is not doing an infinite number of things right no, so I decided to have some fun by pretending to get extremely personal and creepy, like, you know, a person in a movie recorded in advance who breaks the fourth wall to point at the camera (hence at the audience) and say something extremely general which, by definition, can apply to anyone. I should've looked up a random horoscope and posted it, because that might've made a point too. I could just not post this until I look it up anyways, then edit it in, but I don't care enough to do a google search for horoscopes.

GW been afraid of third party models procuders is stupid.

Not everyone will know that there is a thrid party model of a peculiar model and not everyone are willing to buy it, because the style is not "GW" or too loose.

And even after all this, there is still sooooo many thrid parties that does alternative models, for those that want things with a certain style or simply to cut the monotony; Kromlech, Spellcrow, Puppets of War, heck there is so many.

What GW should have done is not " if there is no model, then no rules", but simply" we'll make models for those rules".

A new Vect model?, all the DE players would have sold their moms to get it.

Also not having the rules for a certain option/model because it doesn't exist is kinda willy nilly, there is lots of options and rules that exists, but there is no "physical" existance of them model wise...

The thing is that after they lost the case, they where in a Panicked state, where the Legal departement and the big brass at the time, though that they would loose millions because of it.

They did loose money, because they "squated" whole units from codexes and books and thus people decided to get away from it, since the models they wanted to play din't exist anymore.

its their own danr fault

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
GW been afraid of third party models procuders is stupid.

Not everyone will know that there is a thrid party model of a peculiar model and not everyone are willing to buy it, because the style is not "GW" or too loose.

And even after all this, there is still sooooo many thrid parties that does alternative models, for those that want things with a certain style or simply to cut the monotony; Kromlech, Spellcrow, Puppets of War, heck there is so many.

What GW should have done is not " if there is no model, then no rules", but simply" we'll make models for those rules".

A new Vect model?, all the DE players would have sold their moms to get it.

Also not having the rules for a certain option/model because it doesn't exist is kinda willy nilly, there is lots of options and rules that exists, but there is no "physical" existance of them model wise...

The thing is that after they lost the case, they where in a Panicked state, where the Legal departement and the big brass at the time, though that they would loose millions because of it.

They did loose money, because they "squated" whole units from codexes and books and thus people decided to get away from it, since the models they wanted to play din't exist anymore.

its their own danr fault

This. GW should embrace the fact that there is clearly a huge market for alternative bits and weapons options. If they were savvy they'd have forgeworld pumping out alternative Guard regiments, heads, etc along with weapons options for various squads in this codex and that. We've seen them make upgrade sprues for things like different chapters, GSC, and Deathwatch. What's stopping them doing the same for weapons options and alternative heads etc.

People like to hobby their models to look unique and cool, GW should really understand this.

I was annoyed that the Rubricae Sorceror lost its Force weapon options, no doubt. Very annoying. But then GW gave us Traitor Legions with 8/9 Chaos Legions with new rules and each with 6 new relics. That's at least 48 new relics, in addition to the new rules.

I hear ya on the annoyance on streamlining some units, but there is still A LOT of detail and customization that is available.

In the olden days of 3rd and even earlier 40k was a hobby miniatures game with fairly vast customizability.

Sadly much of that has gone to the wayside.

In 3rd we had the Eye of Terror campaign; the codex for that campaign included modeling tips for plague zombies and Lost and the Damned mutants(mixing guardsmen kits with fantasy zombies and beastmen kits), and also had a list for the SW 13th company(mixing loyalist and chaos marine parts and painting guides to give the army a "scavenged feel".

Now, instead of "kit-bash it or buy FW" GW says: If we don't make it you cannot have it. This does do 2 things:
1) makes it easier for the starting hobbyist, while providing new sales to the company.
2) gives us rules for most of the interesting fiddly bits in the existing kits. An example of this is the new Cadian Detachment relics: they are all parts found in the command squad box(the swagger stick, the Iron left, etc).

Blood angel DC chaplain. Comes stock with a infernopistol and jumppack? Why, just why?
Those clampack chars are expensive as hell, so at least put some options in there GW.

Man that would be rough, imagine an army where all the troops have the same weapons throughout the whole unit, with a bunch of mono-pose HQ, and a whopping 2 units in your entire codex can have variations within the units. that would be rough, it would almost be like you were a bunch of angry space undead. Seriously though, most of the weapon choices suck for ICs, or there is an auto include, so it ends up being a false choice anyway. To make it worse The current meta comes down pretty hard against mixed weapon types, it's cool you can have a combi-flamer in a sniper squad, but how useful is that?

By picking the optimal way to equip a unit and making that the default they are doing new players a favor, They don't gimp themselves and have to rebuy (or rage quit the hobby).

Just play Eldar. You'll get used to it.

 Pouncey wrote:

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

Chapterhouse didn't 'win' the court case. There were a whole slew of infringements charged against them. Some were upheld, many more were either dismissed or dropped along the way.

They only 'won' in that more of the final rulings went in their favour than against. And that wasn't because there were no models available for those options, it was simply because GW was trying to claim ownership of stupid things like chevrons and skulls, or of artwork that they had never actually purchased ownership rights for from the original artists.


GW could have simply shrugged and moved on. They could have lifted their game and started actually putting all of the options in the boxes. They could have set up a licence with a third party producer to make the options they didn't or couldn't make themselves. Instead, they chose to throw their toys out of the pram and remove anything that didn't have a model, and (to return to the original question) they think that's a good idea because it means you (theoretically) spend all of your money on their stuff instead of someone else's.

I seriously doubt that the impact this decision had on the game factored into their considerations at all.

 insaniak wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

But I mean... what if part of the reason Chapterhouse won was precisely because GW designs rules with no models available, and Chapterhouse simply claimed they were filling in the gaps GW wasn't willing to?

Chapterhouse didn't 'win' the court case. There were a whole slew of infringements charged against them. Some were upheld, many more were either dismissed or dropped along the way.

They only 'won' in that more of the final rulings went in their favour than against. And that wasn't because there were no models available for those options, it was simply because GW was trying to claim ownership of stupid things like chevrons and skulls, or of artwork that they had never actually purchased ownership rights for from the original artists.


GW could have simply shrugged and moved on. They could have lifted their game and started actually putting all of the options in the boxes. They could have set up a licence with a third party producer to make the options they didn't or couldn't make themselves. Instead, they chose to throw their toys out of the pram and remove anything that didn't have a model, and (to return to the original question) they think that's a good idea because it means you (theoretically) spend all of your money on their stuff instead of someone else's.

I seriously doubt that the impact this decision had on the game factored into their considerations at all.

you can doubt it all you want but it's clear that once the thing was even being dicussed GW made the (smart) choice to not produce rules they didn't have a model for. they went voer board but it was smart to not include a turox transport, unless they actually made a mini of it.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I was under the impression that it was a snap panic judgement call immediately after the Chapterhouse lawsuit (with Dark Eldar copping the worst of it as theirs was the next codex to be released).

After Dark Eldar, have we seen similar codex releases with as stringent 'no model, no rules' applied or has it got a little better?

Ever codex released since Imperial Guard (which was before Dark Eldar) has adheared to the 'no models, no rules' ideology