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Turn one charges were always a terrible rule. They invalidated many armies right away, really cutting down on the fun variety you could come across.

Now you see things like genestealer cults with MSU units and magus, running formations for 2 dice to go for that 6 on infiltrate, and the broodlord and 20 genestealer group. THEN you also have people allying coteaz in a corner by himself, just for rerolls for turn one steal, or to force a turn one steal reroll. Rolling on strategy for warlord trait to get +1 to sieze. Right away, with a list like this, you eliminate a ton of things. Non tank heavy guard lists get absolutley pooped on. Seen a top of turn one concede after there was only 15 models left on the board TOP OF TURN ONE. You cannot yourself infiltrate any units, so I hope you did not have your own, because you have to stay 18 inches away, where they can be as close as 3. If they deploy their large blob of genestealers first, theres no ROOM left on the board where you can be 18 inches away, sometimes not even in your own deployment zone.

In the past people complained about things like space wolf scouts charging from the enemies deployment zone unable to be stopped. Even space marine gladius strike force can cripple the enemy army when built right, with devastating turn one abilities.

Should games be all but decided on the top of turn one? Because there are games like these where you are guaranteed to lose or win, and its the poorest of poor game design.

Forge the narrative.

Out of curiosity, what point level does this start to happen?

World Eaters also get some devastating turn one charges. Two of my last games ended on turn two and I'm still tweaking my list to get even more units into the turn one assault. 1850 points for those asking.

OP: if GSC are ruining your day you can try taking some fortifications? I haven't played against them myself so I don't know how much this would help.

 andysonic1 wrote:
World Eaters also get some devastating turn one charges. Two of my last games ended on turn two and I'm still tweaking my list to get even more units into the turn one assault. 1850 points for those asking.

I almost can't believe it. Help me understand how it works.

I have been playtesting Black Legion and getting turn one charges with Raptors, but it's not the same, even with MoK and IoW.

This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Guys are finally just catching up to the meta now?

Dismissive 'smallest fiddle' comments aside I'm actually with Martel on this one (for once). How are turn one assaults any different from a heavily optimized gunline wiping most of your army on turn one?

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Which is also a problem.

Basically, the game has a fundamental "Alpha Strike" problem in which most armies will receive a huge bonus if they go first. Some armis become game breaking if they go first (Tau, Eldar, GSC). The entire "I Go, You Go" system needs to be scrapped in favor of an initiative based system more akin to X-Wing.

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Was not aware that imperial guard had ATSKNF or equivalent. How do they stop sweeping adv?

I guess maybe because I'm new, it just seems like assault is the best way to win. You can't be shot when you're in assault by any unit, all those extra dice, instant death strength rules... I will admit I do have a myopic view of this since I am new. But in every game i've played assault was the deciding factor.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Was not aware that imperial guard had ATSKNF or equivalent. How do they stop sweeping adv?

I guess maybe because I'm new, it just seems like assault is the best way to win. You can't be shot when you're in assault by any unit, all those extra dice, instant death strength rules... I will admit I do have a myopic view of this since I am new. But in every game i've played assault was the deciding factor.

Old sweeping advance that let you consolidate into a new CC. Assault is generally bad because you die before you can do so. And assault units are not much cheaper than the shootier deadlier units.

So yeah, the 'Coteaz for everyone' thing is a bit obnoxious, but I really don't see anything else here that is new. There've been ways to get first-turn charges since 5th edition. It got *harder* in 6th, but it was always possible. (If nothing else, Stormboyz had an effective 30" threat radius if you had good dice, and that lasted until our 7th-ed codex.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dismissive 'smallest fiddle' comments aside I'm actually with Martel on this one (for once). How are turn one assaults any different from a heavily optimized gunline wiping most of your army on turn one?

They're different because in most cases the overpowered shooty army can be countered simply by putting the right amount of terrain on the table.

People have been complaining about first turn shooting for twenty years now. It generally turns out that they're fighting on Planet Bowling Ball.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Which is also a problem.

Basically, the game has a fundamental "Alpha Strike" problem in which most armies will receive a huge bonus if they go first. Some armis become game breaking if they go first (Tau, Eldar, GSC). The entire "I Go, You Go" system needs to be scrapped in favor of an initiative based system more akin to X-Wing.

Warmachine seems to manage discrete turns without it all collapsing into a mush, but they do it by constraining movement/shooting to the point where you can't park somewhere and shoot anything on the board/move across the board in a turn. LoS-block area terrain, more LoS-block terrain in general, deployable LoS-block, smaller movement, shorter weapon ranges, defensive buffs that fall somewhere in between "You can't do anything" (Invisibility, Shrouding) and "Nothing at all"...

Alternating activation is a solution, but the problem is a little more complicated than "Discrete turns suck, alternating activations are the answer to all problems!" You could make an alternating-activations 40k game an alpha-strike-wins game very, very easily if you didn't make a whole lot of other changes along with it.


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 insaniak wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dismissive 'smallest fiddle' comments aside I'm actually with Martel on this one (for once). How are turn one assaults any different from a heavily optimized gunline wiping most of your army on turn one?

They're different because in most cases the overpowered shooty army can be countered simply by putting the right amount of terrain on the table.

People have been complaining about first turn shooting for twenty years now. It generally turns out that they're fighting on Planet Bowling Ball.

And the infiltrate-charge army can't be countered by the right table? Put enough impassible terrain up and they'll have a hell of a time getting enough first turn charges off to make much difference.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
World Eaters also get some devastating turn one charges. Two of my last games ended on turn two and I'm still tweaking my list to get even more units into the turn one assault. 1850 points for those asking.

I almost can't believe it. Help me understand how it works.

I have been playtesting Black Legion and getting turn one charges with Raptors, but it's not the same, even with MoK and IoW.

The two games I mentioned were my World Eaters against Grey Knights. Anything moving 12 inches that gets a decent 2D6 free move before the game starts (Butcherhorde) has the opportunity to assault the enemies deployment edge units. My DP, Juggerlord with spawn, Talisman'ed Termies, and Bikes all charge into combat turn one often. My Termies made a 14 inch charge last game due to my Warlord trait allowing for 3D6 charge die + rerolls + talisman. Hilariously, my bike units often DON"T make their charges simply because my other units take up too much space on my deployment so the bikes are relegated to the edges and have absurd charge distances and the lead model usually dies to overwatch, so I'm most likely going to change them out for Raptors.

Against my friend's Grey Knights, he is forced to put everything on the table or hug his table edge in fear. Turn One I killed two Dreadknights, then he Cleansing Flamed as much as he could to try to kill everything. He couldn't and he conceded right then and there because he knew the rest of my army was going to roll him over in assault (he had a bunch of purifiers, a unit of termies, and one dreadknight left). Was he playing a competitive army or list? No. He does, however, have a competitive Necron list that I'd love to play against. My KDK was constantly putting him back on his heels when he brought it against them, I'd love to see what 4+ Turn One assaults could do to him.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And the infiltrate-charge army can't be countered by the right table? Put enough impassible terrain up and they'll have a hell of a time getting enough first turn charges off to make much difference.

The level of terrain required to stop that is not reasonable. Large blocks of impassible terrain are bad for everything but preventing one list from dominating. They destroy the effectiveness of shooting, destroy the effectiveness of movement, and pretty much reduce the game to a non-interactive slog to see who happens to have a clear route to reach more of the objectives. LOS-blocking and cover-granting terrain, on the other hand, can mitigate shooting alpha strikes sufficiently without destroying the rest of the experience. You don't have to cover anywhere near as much of the table with it, and because it isn't impassible those areas of the table are still interactive and interesting. And the level of LOS-blocking terrain required to mitigate shooting alpha strikes is a pretty typical amount of terrain that the game was intended to use. The games that fail to have sufficient terrain are the ones where there's a single tiny "forest" piece in the center of the table and nothing else, because a store that normally has one game at a time has to provide terrain for a 50-person tournament.

The answer, in essence, is that the game has shrunk.

Almost everything that we consider to be "good" has the ability to move and engage optimally at all times. It is always in range, always moving, and always charging or avoiding a charge. The only way to hamper someone is to also be always moving, always be in range, and always charging or avoiding a charge. If you have to wait around for even 1 turn, you are dead or disappeared. In essence, the battlefield of the game has shrunk in size. 48 inches in the past was a HUGE distance, but now is traversable in but a couple of turns, if even that many. With points costs going down and game sizes going up, it's also harder to not be involved in a combat at almost all stages.

This is exactly what people want, but it's also the opposite of what the game, in my opinion, needs. Bring back the slow and the methodical! Bring back the "yeah, you want good movement? you pay for it out the nose".

 insaniak wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dismissive 'smallest fiddle' comments aside I'm actually with Martel on this one (for once). How are turn one assaults any different from a heavily optimized gunline wiping most of your army on turn one?

They're different because in most cases the overpowered shooty army can be countered simply by putting the right amount of terrain on the table.

People have been complaining about first turn shooting for twenty years now. It generally turns out that they're fighting on Planet Bowling Ball.

That's completely untrue in 7th. Mobile shooters are everywhere. Terrain stops static gunlines only. I had a board with 70% terrain and eldar still dominated me.

Orock wrote:Turn one charges were always a terrible rule. They invalidated many armies right away, really cutting down on the fun variety you could come across.

Now you see things like genestealer cults with MSU units and magus, running formations for 2 dice to go for that 6 on infiltrate, and the broodlord and 20 genestealer group. THEN you also have people allying coteaz in a corner by himself, just for rerolls for turn one steal, or to force a turn one steal reroll. Rolling on strategy for warlord trait to get +1 to sieze. Right away, with a list like this, you eliminate a ton of things. Non tank heavy guard lists get absolutley pooped on. Seen a top of turn one concede after there was only 15 models left on the board TOP OF TURN ONE. You cannot yourself infiltrate any units, so I hope you did not have your own, because you have to stay 18 inches away, where they can be as close as 3. If they deploy their large blob of genestealers first, theres no ROOM left on the board where you can be 18 inches away, sometimes not even in your own deployment zone.

In the past people complained about things like space wolf scouts charging from the enemies deployment zone unable to be stopped. Even space marine gladius strike force can cripple the enemy army when built right, with devastating turn one abilities.

Should games be all but decided on the top of turn one? Because there are games like these where you are guaranteed to lose or win, and its the poorest of poor game design.

Any army relying on getting a 1/6 result consistently for its strategy to work will lose 5/6 of the time. Simple math.

Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Which is also a problem.

Basically, the game has a fundamental "Alpha Strike" problem in which most armies will receive a huge bonus if they go first. Some armis become game breaking if they go first (Tau, Eldar, GSC). The entire "I Go, You Go" system needs to be scrapped in favor of an initiative based system more akin to X-Wing.

Because Eldar aren't powerful enough, right?

I see this as a step in the right direction, honestly. Shooting armies were too easily a counter to every single CC-based army, either forcing those armies to be bottom tier, or to have to take unfluffy lists just to play.
And I don't mean win, I mean play in a manner that wasn't just moving their models for their opponent to subsequently remove them.

On a tactical note, you really need to make sure you understand HOW that turn 1 charge is possible, that way you can either mitigate the damage, or call out your opponent for not knowing their own rules.
For example, you mentioned the GSC Patriach + Genestealers, but did you know that only he and 2, yes 2 not 20, Genestealer Princelings are allowed to charge after infiltrate?
With their crap saves, a good overwatch can hurt them pretty bad. And they are both unique units, so you lose at best 2 units before the rest of your army shreds them to pieces.

 Galef wrote:
I see this as a step in the right direction, honestly. Shooting armies were too easily a counter to every single CC-based army, either forcing those armies to be bottom tier, or to have to take unfluffy lists just to play.
And I don't mean win, I mean play in a manner that wasn't just moving their models for their opponent to subsequently remove them.

On a tactical note, you really need to make sure you understand HOW that turn 1 charge is possible, that way you can either mitigate the damage, or call out your opponent for not knowing their own rules.
For example, you mentioned the GSC Patriach + Genestealers, but did you know that only he and 2, yes 2 not 20, Genestealer Princelings are allowed to charge after infiltrate?
With their crap saves, a good overwatch can hurt them pretty bad. And they are both unique units, so you lose at best 2 units before the rest of your army shreds them to pieces.

That's not the formation in question. You're looking at the Overkill Ghosar Quintus Broodking rules. The one in question is the First Curse formation from the Codex in conjunction with the Cult Ambush USR roll of "6".

Any army relying on getting a 1/6 result consistently for its strategy to work will lose 5/6 of the time. Simple math.

As a Cult player, there is a lot you can do too make the it more likely. You get 2 rolls on the warlord table looking to get that 6, the Subterranean assault units (powerful melee units all) get 2 dice each, any unit with a Primus (any primus, I take one in formation and one out of formation to give me two units with this bonus) gets to roll 3. First turn assaults isn't a possibility, it's a fact against GSC, it's only a question of do I get first turn to charge without counter play and what exact units get to charge.

And I've been put off Cult a little bit now, because 80% of my games are decided turn 1. Either they can handle my assault and I actually get a game, or they can't and they loose and they get upset and don't want to play anymore. Game design wise, I prefer my Run and Charge Harlequins. It feels like more of a game, where positioning and a good psychic phase gives my opponent more counter play. Winning turn 1 isn't fun, for the winner or the loser, at least in my opinion.

First turn WE charges? Maybe I need to get off my butt and start converting more Black Templars to Angry Templars.

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

Well said Martel.
You don't get to delete my units before they make charges AND while they make charges?
There's a Major Payne quote about sympathy that really applies here.

This isn't nearly far enough frankly, assault needs to be much better for a more balanced game.

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't nearly far enough frankly, assault needs to be much better for a more balanced game.

The big question is how you get it to work in armies that aren't known for their mobility.

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't nearly far enough frankly, assault needs to be much better for a more balanced game.

So you're in favor of more games ending at the start of turn 1, before one player even gets to have a turn?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
This isn't nearly far enough frankly, assault needs to be much better for a more balanced game.

So you're in favor of more games ending at the start of turn 1, before one player even gets to have a turn?

Not any different than it is now. Funny how he doesn't complain when he can shoot his opponent on turn one but when the shoe is on the other foot he complains. Funny when in a shooty editon made even more shootier people say adapt. So how come the shootier people are not adapting but whining instead?

So do what assault based armies had to do. Adapt. Don't whine about it. Don't cry about it. You had what now, 3 shooty editions? So the "easy button" is taken away now a bit. It's not like it's ever freaking game so why is the Original Poster complaining about it?

You know your army has made it when someone posts in GenDis bewailing the fact it's OP. I'd like it noted that I predicted this months ago.

Marmatag wrote:Out of curiosity, what point level does this start to happen?

With Genestealer Cults it'll happen at any points level, although you'd probably want an Insurrection detachment to make best use of it, and you can't really fit one of those in below 500pts.

andysonic1 wrote:OP: if GSC are ruining your day you can try taking some fortifications? I haven't played against them myself so I don't know how much this would help.

I don't really know what fortifications do, but if it's just extra terrain then it won't help much. Units that land a 6 on Cult Ambush can deploy anywhere within 3" of enemies, which cuts down the distance they have to charge, and aside from the Stealers themselves everything has grenades.

Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:Basically, the game has a fundamental "Alpha Strike" problem in which most armies will receive a huge bonus if they go first. Some armis become game breaking if they go first (Tau, Eldar, GSC). The entire "I Go, You Go" system needs to be scrapped in favor of an initiative based system more akin to X-Wing.

Enthusiastic +1. I really hope they implement this in 8th.

EnTyme wrote:Any army relying on getting a 1/6 result consistently for its strategy to work will lose 5/6 of the time. Simple math.

Except the mathematics aren't that simple. Cult Ambush charges just aren't reliable enough to be a lynchpin of your strategy - most of the time you use it to redeploy or reinforce units rather than launch an assault - and nobody who plays GSC with a straight face is going to build an army that will lose if it doesn't get 6s. That's why MSU Morph builds are so powerful; partly because it means I'm rolling huge numbers of dice (and thus have an elevated chance to land 6s), and partly because it'll be difficult to kill enough of anything to matter before I get to bring my charges home.

Martel732 wrote:
This is the smallest fiddle in the world playing for shooting lists in 7th ed. 1st turn charges are necessary when you are losing 1/3 of your list every shooting phase. Plus speed bump units, plus overwatch, plus no sweeping advance, plus failed charges. Yeah assault is just taking over.

You sound like those tau and eldar players that accuse you of being bad because you cant beat their wraithknight with your orks. Just because there are existing problems, does not mean new problems are forgiven because "stuffs boned anyway"