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My meta will be super competitive if I play at all. So I want to know If tyranids will keep up with tau, eldar, and daemon tournament lists. If they can, are there any good things to get first, and bad things to avoid? If Tyranids can't compete, I'll just pick a different army, so I'm not worried about the fluff or aesthetics. If you had to "rank" the armies in a top to bottom tier level of power, how would it shake out? Who's on top, and who's on bottom? Who has a chance at Tournaments? etc..

Competitively speaking, Tyranids are possibly the worst army in the game. They have 1 or 2 competitive lists that consist of spamming a single unit *cough* flying hive tyrant *cough* and even then comparatively they cop it hard from real high tier lists like scatter-bike spam and Tau suits with marker-lights. So unless you really, and I mean REALLY like hive tyrants with wings, don't touch Tyranids with a 10 foot pole.

If you like the aesthetic, might I suggest gene-stealer cults? They have really cool lore and aren't half bad on the tabletop, I hear tau in particular have trouble against them if you roll well.

If you want a ranking from best to worst it would sort of go like this -

Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

Moderate skill required and incredibly powerful lists
Space marines (non-codex abiding such as space wolves and dark angels)
Astra Militarum with lots of tanks
Nurgle Daemons

Incredibly high skill with incredibly powerful results (If you make one mistake with this army you WILL lose the game, if you build your list wrong as well you might as well be playing garbage tier lists)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Slannesh Daemons

Average and possibly competitive (A safer bet than high skill armies but does not have the capacity to be as good)
Khorn Daemons/Daemonkin
Chaos Space marines
Grey Knights
Sisters of battle (with new Celestine and maybe some allies)
Skittari
Gene-stealer Cults

Garbage Tier
Orks
Astra Militarum without tanks
Cult Mechanicus
Thousand sons without Magnus or daemon allies (sorry guys but we know it to be true)
Tyranids <-------

Competitively speaking tyranids are among the worst armies in 40k, i think chaos space marines should be at the bottom of the list but tyranids really struggle to survive turn 3 when it comes to tournaments lists. Also they're not appropriate for beginners as they have a lot of unique rules and a typical style, so the combination tyranids+beginner+competitive meta means that you wouldn't have the slightest chance to win a game for many months. But tyranids are a lot of fun to play once you make some experience with them and IMHO they're among the best looking armies. In tournaments, if the players involved take the most competitive lists available, only SM, eldar, tau and maybe necrons could win. Also IK if allowed. If the tournament is not super competitive but moderately competitive, then other armies can win too.

 Blackie wrote:
Competitively speaking tyranids are among the worst armies in 40k, i think chaos space marines should be at the bottom of the list but tyranids really struggle to survive turn 3 when it comes to tournaments lists. Also they're not appropriate for beginners as they have a lot of unique rules and a typical style, so the combination tyranids+beginner+competitive meta means that you wouldn't have the slightest chance to win a game for many months. But tyranids are a lot of fun to play once you make some experience with them and IMHO they're among the best looking armies. In tournaments, if the players involved take the most competitive lists available, only SM, eldar, tau and maybe necrons could win. Also IK if allowed. If the tournament is not super competitive but moderately competitive, then other armies can win too.

CSM the worst army in 40k? Have you been keeping up with the updates? Deathguard and armywide FNP and relentless for free, Black legion with turn 1 arrival from deepstrike and raptors being able to assault from deepstrike, magnus the red in general, 4+ FNP on slanneshi units? We arent talking bottom tier anymore they are average at worst.

Reavas wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Competitively speaking tyranids are among the worst armies in 40k, i think chaos space marines should be at the bottom of the list but tyranids really struggle to survive turn 3 when it comes to tournaments lists. Also they're not appropriate for beginners as they have a lot of unique rules and a typical style, so the combination tyranids+beginner+competitive meta means that you wouldn't have the slightest chance to win a game for many months. But tyranids are a lot of fun to play once you make some experience with them and IMHO they're among the best looking armies. In tournaments, if the players involved take the most competitive lists available, only SM, eldar, tau and maybe necrons could win. Also IK if allowed. If the tournament is not super competitive but moderately competitive, then other armies can win too.

CSM the worst army in 40k? Have you been keeping up with the updates? Deathguard and armywide FNP and relentless for free, Black legion with turn 1 arrival from deepstrike and raptors being able to assault from deepstrike, magnus the red in general, 4+ FNP on slanneshi units? We arent talking bottom tier anymore they are average at worst.

Actually i've never seen chaos marines with the new stuff, so i trust you if you say they're not garbage anymore.

 Blackie wrote:

Reavas wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Competitively speaking tyranids are among the worst armies in 40k, i think chaos space marines should be at the bottom of the list but tyranids really struggle to survive turn 3 when it comes to tournaments lists. Also they're not appropriate for beginners as they have a lot of unique rules and a typical style, so the combination tyranids+beginner+competitive meta means that you wouldn't have the slightest chance to win a game for many months. But tyranids are a lot of fun to play once you make some experience with them and IMHO they're among the best looking armies. In tournaments, if the players involved take the most competitive lists available, only SM, eldar, tau and maybe necrons could win. Also IK if allowed. If the tournament is not super competitive but moderately competitive, then other armies can win too.

CSM the worst army in 40k? Have you been keeping up with the updates? Deathguard and armywide FNP and relentless for free, Black legion with turn 1 arrival from deepstrike and raptors being able to assault from deepstrike, magnus the red in general, 4+ FNP on slanneshi units? We arent talking bottom tier anymore they are average at worst.

Actually i've never seen chaos marines with the new stuff, so i trust you if you say they're not garbage anymore.

I suggest checking them out, they have some really cool stuff with new rules for each legion, still not as good as Skyhammer annihilation force, but then again what is.

Reavas wrote:

Astra Militarum with lots of tanks

I am not sure AM with thanks can be this high...

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Reavas wrote:

Astra Militarum with lots of tanks

I am not sure AM with thanks can be this high...

But is there someone that plays AM without tanks???? i agree they're not that competitive, when i play my orks they're among the weakest armies i can fight with. I also have SW and they massacre them pretty easily too, they're a hard counter for my third army though, which is a dark eldar one. I would rate AM among the worst armies. Also DE are not that good, competitive orks list are better than dark eldar ones.

Yes most guard players in my group only field wyverns and transports and air cav.

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

Ahaha, you think the splitting rule is what put Tzeench daemons up there on the list? How many mono-god Tzeench daemons have you fought? Lemme just run you through a few things they pack -

Their warlord is typically a daemon prince of Tzeench with impossible robes, rolling on biomancy for that sweet 4+ fnp and +3 S and T, if your lucky you get a good warlord trait that improves all daemons invuln saves by 1 within 12 inches, giving you a 2+ re-rollable invuln save off the bat, if your not so lucky just take fateweaver to abuse the warpstorm table and get the juicy 2+ re-rollable invuln, or roll on maelific, it does not matter as its not going to die unless you get hit by D weapons while your flying (fat chance). Next you will have 3 or 4 heralds kitted out with grimoire of true names, rolling on maelific untill they get cursed earth, take the paradox and something with fleshbane for gaks and gigs, throw em in a unit of 9 screamers and voila, a unit of 9 screamers with 2+ re-rollable invuln saves, not even D weapons will save you from that as they have to get through 9 models before you get to the heralds, and these things will shred you in combat thanks to those heralds and some decent war-gear. And of course the obligatory 2 units of pink horrors/brimstone horrors, the splitting rules is completely inconsequential, those are by no means what you should be spending your points on.

Keep in mind this is all under 1000 points, so a 2++ re-rollable prince with possibly toughness 8 and str 9 and 4+ FNP, with a 2++ re-rollable screamerstar and 4 fully kitted out heralds. the rest of the points can be spent on whatever you want, but those 2 deathstars are just ridiculous, no one should be able to get those 2+ re-rollables with such ease and for such a cheap price, to top it all off they are jetbikes so not even scatterbikes or tau are safe because they will be in combat with you turn 2. So nooooope they do not drop down from top tier, they are the reason daemons are winning so many tournaments.

In regards to AM not being moderate skill with powerful lists I can defiantly agree that they might belong in average pile, they do have a few good lists and units that are arguable better than those in the average tier.

And note that when I say high skill I mean not only 0 mistakes in order to get good results out of dark eldar and harlequins, you also have to take an incredibly well optimized list in order to pull off some of their crazy stuff. I have seen dark eldar take on scatter-bikes, wraith knights and superfriends alike and a good player uses their speed and incredibly specialized wargear to the best of their ability.

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

Haven't fought scatter bikes, but screamer-star can only reliably be put down by D weapons. The relative ease of getting a 2++ w/rerolls and optional attacks for hard to crack armor or hordes makes them versatile. And with LoCs rocking staffs that put a BT to shame with S8, they're obnoxious. And that's before horrors splitting for further warp charges even happens. They're brutal.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

Haven't fought scatter bikes, but screamer-star can only reliably be put down by D weapons. The relative ease of getting a 2++ w/rerolls and optional attacks for hard to crack armor or hordes makes them versatile. And with LoCs rocking staffs that put a BT to shake with S8, they're obnoxious. And that's bef Re splitting for further warp charges even happens. They're brutal.

How are D weapons killing a screamerstar??? Even blasts are going to average hitting 2 to 3 models and even then you have to roll a 6 to do anything to them, not all D weapons even have the capacity to roll 6 on the table, statistically your not even likely to kill 1 per turn even with D weapons, they best thing you can do to counter screamer-stars is tarpit them. D weapons are only good against the MC like Fateweaver, LoC and a DP.

Reavas wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

Ahaha, you think the splitting rule is what put Tzeench daemons up there on the list? How many mono-god Tzeench daemons have you fought? Lemme just run you through a few things they pack -

Their warlord is typically a daemon prince of Tzeench with impossible robes, rolling on biomancy for that sweet 4+ fnp and +3 S and T, if your lucky you get a good warlord trait that improves all daemons invuln saves by 1 within 12 inches, giving you a 2+ re-rollable invuln save off the bat, if your not so lucky just take fateweaver to abuse the warpstorm table and get the juicy 2+ re-rollable invuln, or roll on maelific, it does not matter as its not going to die unless you get hit by D weapons while your flying (fat chance). Next you will have 3 or 4 heralds kitted out with grimoire of true names, rolling on maelific untill they get cursed earth, take the paradox and something with fleshbane for gaks and gigs, throw em in a unit of 9 screamers and voila, a unit of 9 screamers with 2+ re-rollable invuln saves, not even D weapons will save you from that as they have to get through 9 models before you get to the heralds, and these things will shred you in combat thanks to those heralds and some decent war-gear. And of course the obligatory 2 units of pink horrors/brimstone horrors, the splitting rules is completely inconsequential, those are by no means what you should be spending your points on.

Keep in mind this is all under 1000 points, so a 2++ re-rollable prince with possibly toughness 8 and str 9 and 4+ FNP, with a 2++ re-rollable screamerstar and 4 fully kitted out heralds. the rest of the points can be spent on whatever you want, but those 2 deathstars are just ridiculous, no one should be able to get those 2+ re-rollables with such ease and for such a cheap price, to top it all off they are jetbikes so not even scatterbikes or tau are safe because they will be in combat with you turn 2. So nooooope they do not drop down from top tier, they are the reason daemons are winning so many tournaments.

In regards to AM not being moderate skill with powerful lists I can defiantly agree that they might belong in average pile, they do have a few good lists and units that are arguable better than those in the average tier.

And note that when I say high skill I mean not only 0 mistakes in order to get good results out of dark eldar and harlequins, you also have to take an incredibly well optimized list in order to pull off some of their crazy stuff. I have seen dark eldar take on scatter-bikes, wraith knights and superfriends alike and a good player uses their speed and incredibly specialized wargear to the best of their ability.

I was asking cause I like Tzeentch so I've been building a mono Tzeentch daemon army for both 40k and AoS. Just checking to make sure I'm not accidentally building anything that'd lose me friends.

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists [/size]
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

I wouldn't put knights up here.
But anyway, what about Tzeentch daemons without using the splitting rule, do they drop down a bunch from the realm of the scatterbikes, the realm of cheese?

Ahaha, you think the splitting rule is what put Tzeench daemons up there on the list? How many mono-god Tzeench daemons have you fought? Lemme just run you through a few things they pack -

Their warlord is typically a daemon prince of Tzeench with impossible robes, rolling on biomancy for that sweet 4+ fnp and +3 S and T, if your lucky you get a good warlord trait that improves all daemons invuln saves by 1 within 12 inches, giving you a 2+ re-rollable invuln save off the bat, if your not so lucky just take fateweaver to abuse the warpstorm table and get the juicy 2+ re-rollable invuln, or roll on maelific, it does not matter as its not going to die unless you get hit by D weapons while your flying (fat chance). Next you will have 3 or 4 heralds kitted out with grimoire of true names, rolling on maelific untill they get cursed earth, take the paradox and something with fleshbane for gaks and gigs, throw em in a unit of 9 screamers and voila, a unit of 9 screamers with 2+ re-rollable invuln saves, not even D weapons will save you from that as they have to get through 9 models before you get to the heralds, and these things will shred you in combat thanks to those heralds and some decent war-gear. And of course the obligatory 2 units of pink horrors/brimstone horrors, the splitting rules is completely inconsequential, those are by no means what you should be spending your points on.

Keep in mind this is all under 1000 points, so a 2++ re-rollable prince with possibly toughness 8 and str 9 and 4+ FNP, with a 2++ re-rollable screamerstar and 4 fully kitted out heralds. the rest of the points can be spent on whatever you want, but those 2 deathstars are just ridiculous, no one should be able to get those 2+ re-rollables with such ease and for such a cheap price, to top it all off they are jetbikes so not even scatterbikes or tau are safe because they will be in combat with you turn 2. So nooooope they do not drop down from top tier, they are the reason daemons are winning so many tournaments.

In regards to AM not being moderate skill with powerful lists I can defiantly agree that they might belong in average pile, they do have a few good lists and units that are arguable better than those in the average tier.

And note that when I say high skill I mean not only 0 mistakes in order to get good results out of dark eldar and harlequins, you also have to take an incredibly well optimized list in order to pull off some of their crazy stuff. I have seen dark eldar take on scatter-bikes, wraith knights and superfriends alike and a good player uses their speed and incredibly specialized wargear to the best of their ability.

I was asking cause I like Tzeentch so I've been building a mono Tzeentch daemon army for both 40k and AoS. Just checking to make sure I'm not accidentally building anything that'd lose me friends.

Its Easy! Just don't take the Grimoire, the impossible robes and don't roll on maelific and its a safe list. The biggest your going to get on your saves is a 4+ rerollable and thats manageable.

What about the grimoire on a herald on foot, the tzeentch warpstorm table and no robes?

 n0t_u wrote:
What about the grimoire on a herald on foot, the tzeentch warpstorm table and no robes?

It depends, if your using the grimoire to boost a fast unit to 2++ like a daemon prince or Lord of Change then it becomes incredibly powerful, but if you use it on a unit of pink horrors he is apart of its fine, its the mix of speed and unkillability that makes the lists so strong, without speed you cant get into combat, take objectives and generally be a nuisance.

No ad mech war convocation in the above list as most competitive option means the Poster doesn't know what is competitive or not.

gungo wrote:
No ad mech war convocation in the above list as most competitive option means the Poster doesn't know what is competitive or not.

They are average because they have 1 good list, whereas the top tier lists have loads of things just as powerful.

Around two years ago there was a tyranid list that was doing well in tournaments.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Sean-Nayden-1st-Best-Overall-Las-Vegas-Open-2105.pdf

Basically every competitive tyranid build is some version of this, with a couple changes here and there. If you want to do tyranids then this is pretty much it for them. Nothing new has come out for tyranids to use since then, and lots of things have come along that make tyranids life even harder.

If you only care about winning then don't play tyranids. If you want an army with any variety then don't play tyranids. Honestly unless you love the models don't play tyranids.

The next LVO is coming up real soon so we will see how the new 2016 stuff has changed things. Previously Eldar, Chaos daemons, and Space marines where pretty clearly the best, with Necrons and war convocations right behind.

Chaos daemons have got a ton of new tools throughout 2016 so I highly suspect that they will continue to be on top. Not much has come out that effects the other top armies, but I don't think anything has come along that will usurp them either.

it is unfortunate how bad the nids are... I play them and anything more then fluffy you absolutely NEED winds on like every one of your guys. and then they still suck cause they cant keep up with the new factions.

Thanks for the advice, I gotta ask, what about codex space marines makes them so good? I used to play back in like 3rd and space marines were always considered the worst. Do they have certain army lists or units that are good now?

 GreaterGood? wrote:
Thanks for the advice, I gotta ask, what about codex space marines makes them so good? I used to play back in like 3rd and space marines were always considered the worst. Do they have certain army lists or units that are good now?

They have a weapon type called Grav, which damages you based on your armor. If you're an ork, you give a rat ass about it; but if you're a terminator...
Also, such weapons have many shots; the biggest one comes with a To Wound re-roll mechanic. If it causes damage to an immobilized vehicle, the vehicle will suffer an additional hull point damage. As you can guess, it's even better against MCs than Poison or Sniper are.

They have Chapter Tactics, which change depending on your selection. Like Bikes and leaving melee whenever you want? White Scars Chapter Tactics. Like To Hit re-rolls the entire game? Ultramarines. Challenges? Black Templars. Fire? Salamanders. Sneaky and Jump Packs? Raven Guard. And the list goes on.

They have a LOT of support from Forge World. Imperial Armour 2 is solely for them. As many specific chapters like Minotaurs and Red Scorpions with their exclusive characters.

They have access to Drop Pods, one of the best transports in the game. Such things now capture objectives - and if the fellas that bought one have Objective Secured, the Drop Pod will get it too.

Space Marines is one of the few armies able to use a model with Toughness 5, 4 Wounds, 2+ armour save, 3+ invulnerable save, 3+ Feel No Pain, It Will not Die and Eternal Warrior in a 12" move body and S8 AP2 Councussive. Ah, and now they have 4 new psychic schools - one of them let them re-roll saves. Yep. Another one lets them move terrain.

Most of their previous 1-model slot units, like Thunderfire Cannons and Predators, can be taken in squads.

Finally, they have access to one of the best Decurion-like bonuses: free transports if you take 2 of one option of Core formation (which has Objective Secured to EVERYONE).

===

Yep, Marines aren't the sorry lot of the past anymore.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Reavas wrote:

Astra Militarum with lots of tanks

I am not sure AM with thanks can be this high...

Yeah, AM is a middle/lower tier army with or without tanks. For every battle report someone shows me of AM winning, I can show you 10 where they do not. While tyranids are also a low tier army, I feel genestealer cults has the potential to take on even some of the most competitive lists. Unfortunately, due to the nature of how the GSC army works its completely random. If you roll well on your summons and ambushes you will do well. If you roll poorly, well you are probably going to get wrecked.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
Thanks for the advice, I gotta ask, what about codex space marines makes them so good? I used to play back in like 3rd and space marines were always considered the worst. Do they have certain army lists or units that are good now?

They have a weapon type called Grav, which damages you based on your armor. If you're an ork, you give a rat ass about it; but if you're a terminator...
Also, such weapons have many shots; the biggest one comes with a To Wound re-roll mechanic. If it causes damage to an immobilized vehicle, the vehicle will suffer an additional hull point damage. As you can guess, it's even better against MCs than Poison or Sniper are.

They have Chapter Tactics, which change depending on your selection. Like Bikes and leaving melee whenever you want? White Scars Chapter Tactics. Like To Hit re-rolls the entire game? Ultramarines. Challenges? Black Templars. Fire? Salamanders. Sneaky and Jump Packs? Raven Guard. And the list goes on.

They have a LOT of support from Forge World. Imperial Armour 2 is solely for them. As many specific chapters like Minotaurs and Red Scorpions with their exclusive characters.

They have access to Drop Pods, one of the best transports in the game. Such things now capture objectives - and if the fellas that bought one have Objective Secured, the Drop Pod will get it too.

Space Marines is one of the few armies able to use a model with Toughness 5, 4 Wounds, 2+ armour save, 3+ invulnerable save, 3+ Feel No Pain, It Will not Die and Eternal Warrior in a 12" move body and S8 AP2 Councussive. Ah, and now they have 4 new psychic schools - one of them let them re-roll saves. Yep. Another one lets them move terrain.

Most of their previous 1-model slot units, like Thunderfire Cannons and Predators, can be taken in squads.

Finally, they have access to one of the best Decurion-like bonuses: free transports if you take 2 of one option of Core formation (which has Objective Secured to EVERYONE).

Coming back from 5th edition, what the hell happened? Who thought all of this would be even remotely okay?

Loading...

 oldzoggy wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Competitively speaking, Tyranids are possibly the worst army in the game. They have 1 or 2 competitive lists that consist of spamming a single unit *cough* flying hive tyrant *cough* and even then comparatively they cop it hard from real high tier lists like scatter-bike spam and Tau suits with marker-lights. So unless you really, and I mean REALLY like hive tyrants with wings, don't touch Tyranids with a 10 foot pole.

If you like the aesthetic, might I suggest gene-stealer cults? They have really cool lore and aren't half bad on the tabletop, I hear tau in particular have trouble against them if you roll well.

If you want a ranking from best to worst it would sort of go like this -

Low skill required and incredibly powerful lists
Tau
Eldar
Necrons
Space Marines (codex abiding chapters)
Tzeench Daemons (other daemons don't count as their units can actually die...)
Imperial Knights

Moderate skill required and incredibly powerful lists
Space marines (non-codex abiding such as space wolves and dark angels)
Astra Militarum with lots of tanks
Nurgle Daemons

Incredibly high skill with incredibly powerful results (If you make one mistake with this army you WILL lose the game, if you build your list wrong as well you might as well be playing garbage tier lists)
Dark Eldar
Harlequins
Slannesh Daemons

Average and possibly competitive (A safer bet than high skill armies but does not have the capacity to be as good)
Khorn Daemons/Daemonkin
Chaos Space marines
Grey Knights
Sisters of battle (with new Celestine and maybe some allies)
Skittari
Gene-stealer Cults

Garbage Tier
Orks
Astra Militarum without tanks
Cult Mechanicus
Thousand sons without Magnus or daemon allies (sorry guys but we know it to be true)
Tyranids <-------

These lists is fun but is also quite subjective and are most of the time based on the players experiences while playing its army rather than actual large quantities of independent game results.

My personal opinion is that this list is complete hilariously bad.. For example, Genestealers, skitatarii and cult mech should not be even close to the bottom ; ) But this is also just an opinion. If you want some actual data go and look for tournament results with the similar house rules as your local meta.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that Tyranids are able to win in hard meta's but it isn't easy, and it all depends on the house rules of your meta what list would be the best . Here is one example of a tyranid list that won quite a lot. -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2wtxll/tyranids_won_las_vegas_open_this_yearthis_is_the/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is also a great source for tyranid results and comparing top tier army builds in an objective matter.

http://bloodofkittens.com/7th-edition-army-list-compendium/

Are you saying cult mechanicus, by itself with no allies, deserves to be on par with space wolves and dark angels?
A case can be made that skittari belongs with dark eldar and harlequins in high skill but it does not have the versatility and multiple good units and lists that push it up to "moderate skill and incredibly powerful" let alone above that. 1 good deathstar or formation/decurion isn't something to be chuffed about when the top tier ones have multiple, let alone can be taken in a CAD and skill kick your ass (looking at you eldar)

Being good in tournament like environments has absolutely nothing to do with your 5th centric look at armies nor any other of the restrictions you are pointing at. It makes about as much sense as claiming that race cars are bad at races and lose to bikes all the time when you ban the usage of fuel.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Being good in tournament like environments has absolutely nothing to do with your 5th centric look at armies nor any other of the restrictions you are pointing at. It makes about as much sense as claiming that race cars are bad at races and lose to bikes all the time when you ban the usage of fuel.

If we are talking about armies with allies then the whole list gets thrown in to whack, harlequins and DE get pushed to godlike thanks to eldar allies, CSM also gets pushed to the top once you ally in Tzeench daemons.

Im looking at what an army has avaliable to it on its own as a stand-alone entity, giving some variation to the OP so that he knows what parts of armies are important to it, such as tanks and AM, and various daemons which vary wildly in strength from god to god. OP wanted to start a new army, not 2. So I took allies as a factor out of the equation, making cult mechanicus garbage.

Aside from Flyrant Spam most powerful Nid lists are hoard armies and hoard armies lose out on both kill points and an inability to finish games within a time limit.